What did you think of Obama's speech?

[Midniteoyl]

Wait, you're talking about the
American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 ???

Did you even read that WikiPedia page? It has nothing to do with giving out cash to people.

To respond to the Great Recession, the primary objective for ARRA was to save and create jobs almost immediately. Secondary objectives were to provide temporary relief programs for those most impacted by the recession and invest in infrastructure, education, health, and renewable energy.

 

[kelli]

this country is not in that bad of shape. there are still sprawling suburbs everywhere, with obscenely gigantic homes with 3 or 4 car garages. in chicago where i am from, there is mile after mile of condominium skyscrapers, each unit a $million or more. yes, a lot of people took a hit in the "great recession". i know people who lost their pensions and their life savings. but we can blame wall street and greedy bankers for that. and who do those people own? politicians. the same politicians who are now trying to again deregulate those banks. the richest 5% of us have more wealth than the other 95% combined. we never learn.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Fuck speeches..Words are cheap...I like to see more action then bla bla bla...Obma said a lot of shit when he was running for office and then failed on a lot of them like most politicians ...Just like any job...In the interview when you say "I can do this and that" and in the end you can't you should be fired...They all say what you want to hear and for the most part never follow through... A 2 party system is a fucking joke... might as well flip a coin

Agreed.. And I think we all did, about the 'party system' in use today.. fucking train wreck

 

[M5amhan]

I'm not a socialist. I'm an anarchist.

no you are not, you are promoting fascist policies

one of the best bigger picture speeches ive ever heard:

 

[jack]

At the end of the year you still have your home and your car and your cat and your dog and you aren't losing any weight for lack of food. Good grief. Give the struggling person a raise already.

I struggled every single day like lots of others so I and my family did not have to work for min. wage . Going to school ,going to work everyday sucked but I did it and most others do . If min. wage is your goal not much can help. I understand some just need a break , but I dont want 60% to support the other 40% .

 

[M5amhan]

this country is not in that bad of shape. there are still sprawling suburbs everywhere, with obscenely gigantic homes with 3 or 4 car garages. in chicago where i am from, there is mile after mile of condominium skyscrapers, each unit a $million or more. yes, a lot of people took a hit in the "great recession". i know people who lost their pensions and their life savings. but we can blame wall street and greedy bankers for that. and who do those people own? politicians. the same politicians who are now trying to again deregulate those banks. we never learn.

you should understand where the funding of those buildings come from. 0% interest rates and cheap money. fed buying worthless debt and government bonds has re inflated the housing bubble (mortgage backed securities that are literally worth nothing $40 billion a month in those and $40 billion a month in bonds). wall street and greedy bankers were the by product of the low interest rates set by the fed and no money down government backed loans. you think the free market produced all these recessions we have seen? the housing bubble happened under domestic 1% interest rates, what we have now is global 0% rates plus global money printing with lending standards going down the drain again. this country is in horrible shape if you know how to look under the surface

 

[kelli]

you should understand where the funding of those buildings come from. 0% interest rates and cheap money. fed buying worthless debt and government bonds has re inflated the housing bubble (mortgage backed securities that are literally worth nothing $40 billion a month in those and $40 billion a month in bonds). wall street and greedy bankers were the by product of the low interest rates set by the fed and no money down government backed loans. you think the free market produced all these recessions we have seen? the housing bubble happened under domestic 1% interest rates, what we have now is global 0% rates plus global money printing with lending standards going down the drain again. this country is in horrible shape if you know how to look under the surface

maybe so, but the chicken little "sky is falling" crap has been going on for decades, if not centuries. if it all comes crashing down, then you can say you were right. but i don't see it happening in our lifetime.

 

[No Ash More Cash]

The US and UK and other countries who bailed out the banks should have let them fail and put them bankers in jail like they did in Iceland... The Icelandic Government bailed out the people it was cheaper for them and no one lost there homes plus there economy pretty much bounced right back...Their unemployment is also down to 2% the last time I looked...You never see that on the news here

 

[M5amhan]

maybe so, but the chicken little "sky is falling" crap has been going on for decades, if not centuries. if it all comes crashing down, then you can say you were right. but i don't see it happening in our lifetime.

i wasnt referring to anything happening in the future in my response. i was talking about what we are currently living in.

 

[kelli]

The US and UK and other countries who bailed out the banks should have let them fail and put them bankers in jail like they did in Iceland... The Icelandic Government bailed out the people it was cheaper for them and no one lost there homes plus there economy pretty much bounced right back...Their unemployment is also down to 2% the last time I looked...You never see that on the news here

i definitely agree with the bankers in jail part. many of them not only did not pay for their crimes (tantamount to treason), but received huge bonuses. that is the true travesty in all this.

 

[M5amhan]

i definitely agree with the bankers in jail part. many of them not only did not pay for their crimes (tantamount to treason), but received huge bonuses. that is the true travesty in all this.

you would think that would make someone want to look into the structure of the fed. who owns it, what happens there, why no one was prosecuted etc. simple things

 

[kelli]

i wasnt referring to anything happening in the future in my response. i was talking about what we are currently living in.

ok, but still.....the median household income in the US is around $52,000 annually. that seems like a lot to me. i don't make anywhere near that. of course i am single so i don't need that much. but i still have to pay many of the household expenses that a family would. this country has gotten so accustomed to living large, that any "correction" is gonna really hurt. but really. think back to the 50's. nobody had 3,000 sq. ft houses. few families had 2 or 3 cars. most people didn't spend 3 out of every $10 eating out. but all those things are common now. living beyond our means has become commonplace. and it can't go on forever. you can blame the gov't, the banks, corporations, whatever. but the ultimate culprit is "us".

 

[kelli]

you would think that would make someone want to look into the structure of the fed. who owns it, what happens there, why no one was prosecuted etc. simple things

yeah you'd think.

 

[No Ash More Cash]

The " too big to fail" was a fucking scare tack tick to allow the people to give the "bank bail out" the ok.... Us giving banks interest free loans...Something fucking wrong with that picture..Fucking makes me sick!

 

[Midniteoyl]

ok, but still.....the median household income in the US is around $52,000 annually. that seems like a lot to me. i don't make anywhere near that. of course i am single so i don't need that much. but i still have to pay many of the household expenses that a family would. this country has gotten so accustomed to living large, that any "correction" is gonna really hurt. but really. think back to the 50's. nobody had 3,000 sq. ft houses. few families had 2 or 3 cars. most people didn't spend 3 out of every $10 eating out. but all those things are common now. living beyond our means has become commonplace. and it can't go on forever. you can blame the gov't, the banks, corporations, whatever. but the ultimate culprit is "us".

This is all true... but, in the 50's a dollar went farther and didnt require 2 person incomes to make ends meet

 

[VapedCrusader]

His speeches are only entertaining on about a quarter of mushrooms..

 

[kelli]

This is all true... but, in the 50's a dollar went farther and didnt require 2 person incomes to make ends meet

yes, but the point i was making is we didn't have all the material trappings we do now. (i wasn't there personally but i watched happy days)

 

[jack]

1.00 in 1952 is equal to almost 9.00 today

 

[MD_Boater]

I'm no republican or democrat either, but the Republican's idea of cooperating and working together is Obama should do exactly what they say. That's no cooperation.

LOL... I think you meant to say "I'm no republican or democrat either, but the Obama's idea of cooperating and working together is that the Republicans should do exactly what Obama says. That's no cooperation."

 

[No Ash More Cash]

This is all true... but, in the 50's a dollar went farther and didnt require 2 person incomes to make ends meet

One of the main reasons for this is......We buy more shit ..Back then a family only had one car...( 2,3 More cars= more gas, more insurance more repairs...etc)... washers and dryers were a luxury to save mum time (More electric plus you have to pay for it)...One TV per household (No cable bill), One Home phone ...The list goes on...You have to pay for luxuries so it's a vicious cyclical ...The less crap you buy and maintain that dollar can go further...That's basic economics

 

[vaperature]

no you are not, you are promoting fascist policies

one of the best bigger picture speeches ive ever heard:

I can respect anyone's point of view. But when someone tries to tell me what I am and what I'm not based on one single thread like this, I can't respect that. I'm an anarchist. I'm sorry if you have some prejudicial preconception of what an anarchist is suppose to think, that we all just parrot each other's point of view, but what you are describing is actually anti-anarchist. An anarchist thinks for himself and decides for himself. Unfortunately I don't live in an anarchist society, so even though I'm an anarchist I still have to deal with the reality of the system that I do live in, and my views on things are going to be based on that reality, not on some fantasy anarchist society that I wish I lived in. My anarchist views support the right of the people not the rights of the corporations and certainly not the rights of either party in this pseudo-two party system. The people have a right to a higher minimum wage and women have the right to equal pay. If it just so happens that the Democrats agree with me, that's not me supporting the Democrats, that's just the way the chips fall. I have a lot of views that Republicans would agree on as well; doesn't make me Republican.

 

[No Ash More Cash]

His speeches are only entertaining on about a quarter of mushrooms..

Hypnotoad agrees

 

[No Ash More Cash]

My philosophy is...When shit that effects you hits the fan get your head out your ass and worry about whats going on around you and don't worry about who's going to get to the next round in American idol

 

[MD_Boater]

Bush gave a tax break to every single tax payer that came in the form of a rebate check. The average check was $300. I remember because everyone I know got one. That's where the surplus went.

There was NO surplus. That was a lie. The surplus was the difference between what they thought that they were going to spend vs. what they actually spent. Both of those numbers were MORE than all revenues brought in. So the "surplus" was actually less debt.

And we really need to help people understand something. A tax cut means that you TAKE less than you were planning on taking. So by cutting taxes, you do not give anyone anything.

 

[MD_Boater]

But don't expect me to blindly come to the defense of Obama either, but also don't expect me to be blind to his accomplishments either.

Okay... Name ONE Obama accomplishment...

 

[MD_Boater]

Wait, you're talking about the
American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 ???

Did you even read that WikiPedia page? It has nothing to do with giving out cash to people.

To respond to the Great Recession, the primary objective for ARRA was to save and create jobs almost immediately. Secondary objectives were to provide temporary relief programs for those most impacted by the recession and invest in infrastructure, education, health, and renewable energy.

This act did NOTHING except give a shit load of money to Democrat campaign contributors. None of it actually got used to build a bridge, fix a road, or do a damn thing. It was payolla for the cronies.

 

[vaperature]

Okay... Name ONE Obama accomplishment...

What would be the point of that? No matter what accomplishment I point out, you're going to either say the previous president did it, someone else is really responsible for it, or that it's not in your opinion an accomplishment at all.

 

[M5amhan]

I can respect anyone's point of view. But when someone tries to tell me what I am and what I'm not based on one single thread like this, I can't respect that. I'm an anarchist. I'm sorry if you have some prejudicial preconception of what an anarchist is suppose to think, that we all just parrot each other's point of view, but what you are describing is actually anti-anarchist. An anarchist thinks for himself and decides for himself. Unfortunately I don't live in an anarchist society, so even though I'm an anarchist I still have to deal with the reality of the system that I do live in, and my views on things are going to be based on that reality, not on some fantasy anarchist society that I wish I lived in. My anarchist views support the right of the people not the rights of the corporations and certainly not the rights of either party in this pseudo-two party system. The people have a right to a higher minimum wage and women have the right to equal pay. If it just so happens that the Democrats agree with me, that's not me supporting the Democrats, that's just the way the chips fall. I have a lot of views that Republicans would agree on as well; doesn't make me Republican.

i never tried to tell you what you were. i said you are promoting fascist policies which you are, that is reality. we used to have a free market, not some fantasy anarchist society you wish you lived in. anarchy is simply being against rulers and with that being for self regulation.

when you say "people have a right to a higher minimum wage" what you are saying is "people have the right to force employers with violent authority to pay them more then they are currently paid for the same job". which is extortion using government. i dont think you understand that and to call yourself anarchist when you stand behind that statement is ridiculous and false. thats the way the chips fall

 

[vaperature]

i never tried to tell you what you were. i said you are promoting fascist policies which you are, that is reality. we used to have a free market, not some fantasy anarchist society you wish you lived in. anarchy is simply being against rulers and with that being for self regulation.

when you say "people have a right to a higher minimum wage" what you are saying is "people have the right to force employers with violent authority to pay them more then they are currently paid for the same job". which is extortion using government. i dont think you understand that and to call yourself anarchist when you stand behind that statement is ridiculous and false. thats the way the chips fall

No sir, in an anarchist society, if companies didn't pay what workers deserve, we'd form a mob and burn the factory down. We don't live in an anarchist society so the only recourse we have is minimum wage laws. You want me to ignore the reality and concentrate on fantasy. And yes, you are telling me what I am and what I am not when you say things like "you call yourself anarchist when you stand behind that statement is ridiculous and false". Please, do tell me in your heavenly wisdom what statements I SHOULD make so that I can be a good little stereotypical anarchist in your eyes.

 

[M5amhan]

No sir, in an anarchist society, if companies didn't pay what workers deserve, we'd form a mob and burn the factory down. We don't live in an anarchist society so the only recourse we have is minimum wage laws. You want me to ignore the reality and concentrate on fantasy. And yes, you are telling me what I am and what I am not when you say things like "you call yourself anarchist when you stand behind that statement is ridiculous and false". Please, do tell me in your heavenly wisdom what statements I SHOULD make so that I can be a good little stereotypical anarchist in your eyes.

in an anarchist society i would imagine if workers werent being paid what they were worth they would work for someone else that will, and the company in question would go out of business. i dont understand where the violence comes from, free markets are peaceful.

yes i am telling you that you are not an anarchist nor do you understand anarchy that is sustainable in real life. because that is evident in what you are promoting and your statements. if you want my opinion i think you should study free markets before you continue to contradict yourself. i just want you to understand that you are promoting institutionalized violence against businesses to get what you want. if you dont understand that, or dont understand that is wrong then there is no reason to keep this discussion going

 

[MD_Boater]

i am not getting involved in this discussion except to make one observation. it seems like 90% of vapers are conservative republicans.

Remember the thread where we were all talking about how old we were, and everyone was surprised to find out how many of us were above 40? Young people tend to think with their hearts and feelings, us older folks think in terms of how the world really works. I mean no offense to anyone younger than me reading this, but when you get to be a half century old you will understand.

I remember Presidents Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, both Bush(s), Clinton, and Obama. Hands down, Reagan was the best. Clinton got lucky that Bush Sr. raised taxes after saying he wouldn't, which caused a lot of Republicans to stand on principle and vote for Ross Perot, which handed Clinton the Presidency - and the free ride on the good economy that Reagan set up for he and Bush 41. By the time Bush 43 got into office, Clinton's policies had already started screwing things up. It was Bush 41's fault that the economy turned bad because he didn't undo enough of Clinton's policies and that he compromised with the Dems too much instead of fixing things.

The housing collapse was Clinton's fault. He forced banks to make loans that they ordinarily wouldn't make. The banks got smart, and sold off all of the risky mortgages to investors like AIG, and Goldman Sachs. The Dems wanted the banks to take the losses when things collapsed, but they got surprised when their buddies at AIG and GS (allies of the Dems) were caught holding the bag when it happened. The "American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009" was a thinly veiled cover story for bailing their "too big to fail" friends out of trouble.

Minimum wage - If it gets raised, I will have to fire 2 people. My budget for payroll is determined at the beginning of the year, and is based off of a percentage of (projected) revenue. The government can raise the minimum wage all they want, but my payroll will not increase. Ain't going to happen. The same amount of work will get done for the same amount of money. It doesn't matter to me if I have 16 people making $12/hr or 10 people making $19.60/hr. So those 10 people might be happier, but the other 6 are going to hate life. Do you work for me Vaperature? If so, you will be one of the 6. Just sayin'.

 

[vaperature]

in an anarchist society i would imagine if workers werent being paid what they were worth they would work for someone else that will, and the company in question would go out of business. i dont understand where the violence comes from, free markets are peaceful.

yes i am telling you that you are not an anarchist nor do you understand anarchy that is sustainable in real life. because that is evident in what you are promoting and your statements. if you want my opinion i think you should study free markets before you continue to contradict yourself. i just want you to understand that you are promoting institutionalized violence against businesses to get what you want. if you dont understand that, or dont understand that is wrong then there is no reason to keep this discussion going

Well quite frankly it doesn't matter to me what you think. I'm an anarchist. The anarchy you are describing is actually capitalism at its worst, where corporations can pay you pennies a day if they like and if you can't find another job you just have to live with it. That's not anarchy, that's capitalism.

 

[MD_Boater]

The " too big to fail" was a fucking scare tack tick to allow the people to give the "bank bail out" the ok.... Us giving banks interest free loans...Something fucking wrong with that picture..Fucking makes me sick!

True, with one correction. The banks had sold off the risky mortgages in the form of derivatives to the investment companies (AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc..), which got bailed out. It wasn't the banks that got bailed out.

 

[M5amhan]

Well quite frankly it doesn't matter to me what you think. I'm an anarchist. The anarchy you are describing is actually capitalism at its worst, where corporations can pay you pennies a day if they like and if you can't find another job you just have to live with it. That's not anarchy, that's capitalism.

first, do you know what a corporation is?

second, you are telling me that in a free market a labor pool full of skilled workers desperate for more money wont be scooped up by capitalists to make a fortune off their labor increasing everyone's quality of life? what do you think happens to the business that wouldnt pay their workers enough? capitalism is when people capitalize off of free market inefficiencies making everything more efficient and more productive. enough of it leads to extreme wealth creation we saw happen in america before government started exponentially growing and wreaking havoc on what we created

im sorry man but you just dont understand how things work. i can tell you have never run a business or even been in management successfully

 

[vaperature]

first, do you know what a corporation is?

second, you are telling me that in a free market a labor pool full of skilled workers desperate for more money wont be scooped up by capitalists to make a fortune off their labor increasing everyone's quality of life? what do you think happens to the business that wouldnt pay their workers enough? capitalism is when people capitalize off of free market inefficiencies making everything more efficient and more productive. enough of it leads to extreme wealth creation we saw happen in america before government started exponentially growing and wreaking havoc on what we created

im sorry man but you just dont understand how things work. i can tell you have never run a business or even been in management successfully

Yeah except you are forgetting about the rampant extreme poverty that many in this country's history have faced. If it wasn't for minimum wage in this country people would be still working for $1.50 an hour and don't tell me business owners would up it out of the goodness of their hearts, or that there are enough jobs to go around where people could just turn their back on the $1.50 to go find one that pays $10. No, they'd just be unemployed. All this whining and moaning about a lousy fifty cents or a dollar more per hour is just extreme selfishness on the part of those who aren't themselves working for minimum wage.

 

[MD_Boater]

I'm an anarchist. ... An anarchist thinks for himself and decides for himself.

Uh... no. They do not. They subscribe to mob rule, which by definition, precludes independent thought.

 

[vaperature]

Uh... no. They do not. They subscribe to mob rule, which by definition, precludes independent thought.

Lol, so you're an anarchist I take it?

 

[kelli]

Yeah except you are forgetting about the rampant extreme poverty that many in this country's history have faced. If it wasn't for minimum wage in this country people would be still working for $1.50 an hour and don't tell me business owners would up it out of the goodness of their hearts, or that there are enough jobs to go around where people could just turn their back on the $1.50 to go find one that pays $10. No, they'd just be unemployed. All this whining and moaning about a lousy fifty cents or a dollar more per hour is just extreme selfishness on the part of those who aren't themselves working for minimum wage.

the attitude of most people.....

 

[MD_Boater]

Lol, so you're an anarchist I take it?

No. I am a conservative. I believe in the rule of law, and I manage a fairly large payroll.


If you offered me a minimum wage job, I would laugh in your face and leave.

 

[M5amhan]

Yeah except you are forgetting about the rampant extreme poverty that many in this country's history have faced. If it wasn't for minimum wage in this country people would be still working for $1.50 an hour and don't tell me business owners would up it out of the goodness of their hearts, or that there are enough jobs to go around where people could just turn their back on the $1.50 to go find one that pays $10. No, they'd just be unemployed. All this whining and moaning about a lousy fifty cents or a dollar more per hour is just extreme selfishness on the part of those who aren't themselves working for minimum wage.

no not out of the goodness of their heart but out of fear of going out of business. this isnt whining about 50 cents its standing behind free market principles which you do not understand. you seemingly dont understand how easy it is to start businesses without government interfering. there are plenty of ways to increase the purchasing power of all US citizens and extorting payment from your employer using violence is not a good one for the health of our country. i cant keep trying to convince a brick wall though. have a nice day

 

[vaperature]

No. I am a conservative. I believe in the rule of law, and I manage a fairly large payroll.


If you offered me a minimum wage job, I would laugh in your face and leave.

Well since you admit you are not an anarchist and therefore know nothing about being an anarchist, how about you stop trying to tell a real anarchist how he's suppose to think. Okay?

 

[vaperature]

no not out of the goodness of their heart but out of fear of going out of business. this isnt whining about 50 cents its standing behind free market principles which you do not understand. you seemingly dont understand how easy it is to start businesses without government interfering. there are plenty of ways to increase the purchasing power of all US citizens and extorting payment from your employer using violence is not a good one for the health of our country. i cant keep trying to convince a brick wall though. have a nice day

Why would they go out of business if everyone else is paying the same $1.50?

 

[M5amhan]

Why would they go out of business if everyone else is paying the same $1.50?

there would be an entrepreneur feeling greedy and wanting a piece of that pie. so they start a business and pay $2 or $3. the cycle continues until they are being paid what the market deems their price is

 

[M5amhan]

eventually it wouldnt be worth it to go into business and up the price of labor for an edge and thats where it would stop

 

[vaperature]

there would be an entrepreneur feeling greedy and wanting a piece of that pie. so they start a business and pay $2 or $3. the cycle continues until they are being paid what the market deems their price is

Yeah right. Lol. That's really working in freakin' China or India, isn't it.

 

[MD_Boater]

Well since you admit you are not an anarchist and therefore know nothing about being an anarchist, how about you stop trying to tell a real anarchist how he's suppose to think. Okay?

Hahahahaha... Okay... If it makes you proud to be associated with them, go for it. I would avoid their meetings if I were you. They would hurt you.

 

[M5amhan]

Yeah right. Lol. That's really working in freakin' China or India, isn't it.

have a nice day

 

[vaperature]

Hahahahaha... Okay... If it makes you proud to be associated with them, go for it. I would avoid their meetings if I were you. They would hurt you.

Who is "them"? We're not a political party. We don't have meetings. Good grief.

 

[vaperature]

have a nice day

You too, have a great day.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Well quite frankly it doesn't matter to me what you think. I'm an anarchist. The anarchy you are describing is actually capitalism at its worst, where corporations can pay you pennies a day if they like and if you can't find another job you just have to live with it. That's not anarchy, that's capitalism.

an·ar·chy
ˈanərkē/
noun
noun: anarchy

1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
   "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
   synonyms:lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil
   "conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"
   antonyms:government, order
   • absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

What you say you are, and what you are saying needs to happen, are at odds with each other.. You cannot be a 'anarchist' AND claim the government needs to step in and do more..