What did you think of Obama's speech?

[vaperature]

an·ar·chy
ˈanərkē/
noun
noun: anarchy

1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
   "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
   synonyms:lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil
   "conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"
   antonyms:government, order
   • absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

What you say you are, and what you are saying needs to happen, are at odds with each other.. You cannot be a 'anarchist' AND claim the government needs to step in and do more..

Dude, that's the definition of a state of anarchy; it's not the definition of the philosophy of anarchism. Two completely different things.

As for the second definition that would be nice execpt as I said, we DON'T live in an anarchist society. So any anarchist living in REALITY is going to work within the society that actually exists, not pretend it doesn't.

 

[Midniteoyl]

True, with one correction. The banks had sold off the risky mortgages in the form of derivatives to the investment companies (AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc..), which got bailed out. It wasn't the banks that got bailed out.

I dont have the article anymore, but, the guy who thought up these, says that its the worst thing ever created (and it was), but that stupid people would make him rich off of it (and it did).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate_investment_trust#United_States

 

[Midniteoyl]

Dude, that's the definition of a state of anarchy; it's not the definition of the philosophy of anarchism. Two completely different things.

As for the second definition that would be nice execpt as I said, we DON'T live in an anarchist society. So any anarchist living in REALITY is going to work within the society that actually exists, not pretend it doesn't.

(sigh).. You are still at odds to yourself...

Anarchists do not believe in bigger government, or even, the State.. Sure, it might be a 'necessary evil' in some eyes, but it would still be very minimal..

Also, you advocated 'burning a business down', when that violence too is opposition to what you claim you believe.

Philosophical anarchism is an anarchist school of thought[1] which holds that the state lacks moral legitimacy while not supporting violence to eliminate it.[2] Though philosophical anarchism does not necessarily imply any action or desire for the elimination of the State, philosophical anarchists do not believe that they have an obligation or duty to obey the State, or conversely, that the State has a right to command.

Philosophical anarchists may accept the existence of a minimal state as an unfortunate, and usually temporary, "necessary evil" but argue that citizens do not have a moral obligation to obey the state when its laws conflict with individual autonomy.[7] As conceived by William Godwin, it requires individuals to act in accordance with their own judgments and to allow every other individual the same liberty; conceived egoistically as by Max Stirner, it implies that 'the unique one' who truly 'owns himself' recognizes no duties to others; within the limit of his might, he does what is right for him.[8]

Rather than taking up arms to bring down the state, philosophical anarchists "have worked for a gradual change to free the individual from what they thought were the oppressive laws and social constraints of the modern state and allow all individuals to become self-determining and value-creating."

 

[Midniteoyl]

Why would they go out of business if everyone else is paying the same $1.50?

If everyone else was paying the same $1.50, the prices for goods wouldnt be so high...

 

[vaperature]

(sigh).. You are still at odds to yourself...

Anarchists do not believe in bigger government, or even, the State.. Sure, it might be a 'necessary evil' in some eyes, but it would still be very minimal..

Also, you advocated 'burning a business down', when that violence too is opposition to what you claim you believe.

Philosophical anarchism is an anarchist school of thought[1] which holds that the state lacks moral legitimacy while not supporting violence to eliminate it.[2] Though philosophical anarchism does not necessarily imply any action or desire for the elimination of the State, philosophical anarchists do not believe that they have an obligation or duty to obey the State, or conversely, that the State has a right to command.

Philosophical anarchists may accept the existence of a minimal state as an unfortunate, and usually temporary, "necessary evil" but argue that citizens do not have a moral obligation to obey the state when its laws conflict with individual autonomy.[7] As conceived by William Godwin, it requires individuals to act in accordance with their own judgments and to allow every other individual the same liberty; conceived egoistically as by Max Stirner, it implies that 'the unique one' who truly 'owns himself' recognizes no duties to others; within the limit of his might, he does what is right for him.[8]

Rather than taking up arms to bring down the state, philosophical anarchists "have worked for a gradual change to free the individual from what they thought were the oppressive laws and social constraints of the modern state and allow all individuals to become self-determining and value-creating."

Yeah, so? I'm the anarchist. I never said the entire country is anarchist. All I can do is live my own life by my own values. I keep government involvement in my own life at a minimum. Just because I do this doesn't mean that the entire world around me is going to change and that I'm not living in a capitalist society. The fact is I live in a society that DOES have minimum wage. My being an anarchist isn't going to change that, it's REALITY. So since this reality exists, I would prefer that reality be RAISED for the good of my fellow man.

I'm not at odds with anything about myself. I've lived as an anarchist my entire life. You're the one who is at odds with me, trying to google definitions of anarchy to dictate for me how I'm suppose to think.

 

[vaperature]

If everyone else was paying the same $1.50, the prices for goods wouldnt be so high...

Fine, go get a job that pays $1.50 an hour and try to live on it then.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Yeah right. Lol. That's really working in freakin' China or India, isn't it.

Its is, in fact.. the people being paid in the factories are making more than they were as farmers.. They actually are very well paid for their country. Is it the same as ours, no, but then things are cheaper there too.. Just because you hear they are getting paid $10 a day, doesnt mean that that is not good money for them..

 

[Midniteoyl]

Yeah, so? I'm the anarchist. I never said the entire country is anarchist. All I can do is live my own life by my own values. I keep government involvement in my own life at a minimum. Just because I do this doesn't mean that the entire world around me is going to change and that I'm not living in a capitalist society. The fact is I live in a society that DOES have minimum wage. My being an anarchist isn't going to change that, it's REALITY. So since this reality exists, I would prefer that reality be RAISED for the good of my fellow man.

I'm not at odds with anything about myself. I've lived as an anarchist my entire life. You're the one who is at odds with me, trying to google definitions of anarchy to dictate for me how I'm suppose to think.

In reality, you think like a Libertarian..

 

[vaperature]

Its is, in fact.. the people being paid in the factories are making more than they were as farmers.. They actually are very well paid for their country. Is it the same as ours, no, but then things are cheaper there too.. Just because you hear they are getting paid $10 a day, doesnt mean that that is not good money for them..

 

[vaperature]

In reality, you think like a Libertarian..

Libertarian is about one hair away from anarchism. So what's your point?

 

[Midniteoyl]

Fine, go get a job that pays $1.50 an hour and try to live on it then.

What? What? I dont even know how to respond to that other than

 

[vaperature]

What? What? I dont even know how to respond to that other than

Okay then go get a job at today's existing minimum wage and see if you can live off it then.

 

[Midniteoyl]

facepalming that? Explain it then.. Please, tell me how it should be different over there, and why, and how you would correct it

 

[Midniteoyl]

Okay then go get a job at today's existing minimum wage and see if you can live off it then.

Um... I am DISABLED.. I DO live off of less than minimum wage

 

[vaperature]

facepalming that? Explain it then.. Please, tell me how it should be different over there, and why, and how you would correct it

 

[vaperature]

Um... I am DISABLED.. I DO live off of less than minimum wage

What are you complaining for then???? Good grief!!!! What do YOU care if the minimum wage is raised?

 

[Midniteoyl]

Libertarian is about one hair away from anarchism. So what's your point?

Simply that you're more Libertarian than Anarchist in your way of thinking..

 

[Midniteoyl]

What are you complaining for then???? Good grief!!!! What do YOU care if the minimum wage is raised?

Because, I dont get paid more when the prices raise.. Because I care about the economy.. Because I care about what will happen when my g'kids need to find a job.. You know, reasons

 

[vaperature]

Simply that you're more Libertarian than Anarchist in your way of thinking..

If there was a such thing as a left-leaning Libertarian I wouldn't be ashamed to be called that. But regardless, I'm an anarchist. So you think I'm not a "good" anarchist in your books. Think about how silly that is. It's like telling a Jew he's not Jewish because he doesn't support Israel or something. Even if he doesn't act like your typical Jew, he's still a Jew.

 

[Midniteoyl]

HAHahahhahaha

 

[vaperature]

Because, I dont get paid more when the prices raise.. Because I care about the economy.. Because I care about what will happen when my g'kids need to find a job.. You know, reasons

Except that's just all paranoia that I don't believe in. The economy is not going to crash and all that's going to happen is that your grandkids will find higher paying jobs. That's all.

 

[Midniteoyl]

If there was a such thing as a left-leaning Libertarian I wouldn't be ashamed to be called that. But regardless, I'm an anarchist. So you think I'm not a "good" anarchist in your books. Think about how silly that is. It's like telling a Jew he's not Jewish because he doesn't support Israel or something. Even if he doesn't act like your typical Jew, he's still a Jew.

LOL.. Nope. Not like that..

 

[Midniteoyl]

Except that's just all paranoia that I don't believe in. The economy is not going to crash and all that's going to happen is that your grandkids will find higher paying jobs. That's all.

In China...

 

[vaperature]

In China...

That's what you believe but that's not what I believe. Higher wages means people are spending more which means the economy booms.

 

[Midniteoyl]

That's what you believe but that's not what I believe. Higher wages means people are spending more which means the economy booms.

See... and that right there is why you fail economics...

 

[vaperature]

See... and that right there is why you fail economics...

No it's not. For all the moaning and groaning people do in this country it's still the richest country and despite all the raises in minimum wage it has remained that way. It's had it's ups and downs but even when it's down it's still far better than all the other countries. So these doom and gloom predictions about how a raise in the minimum raise is going to destroy everything is just absurd.

Anyway, that's just MY opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I don't claim mine are the only valid ones. This has been an excellent chat. Thanks. I'm getting use to my new progressive lens glasses and have to get away from the computer for a while though. Vape on.

 

[MD_Boater]

Forgot to address the title of the thread. Obama's speech sucked.

 

[MD_Boater]

What would be the point of that? No matter what accomplishment I point out, you're going to either say the previous president did it, someone else is really responsible for it, or that it's not in your opinion an accomplishment at all.

AW... Come on... Name one single, valid, real Obama accomplishment.

I'll keep quiet. I promise. I just have never heard anyone come up with one. Even I believe that there has to be one that slipped by me.

 

[zaroba]

AW... Come on... Name one single, valid, real Obama accomplishment.

He managed to sucker people into voting him into a second term. Does that count? lol

 

[Saratoga Joe]

Until you get the money out of politics, your congressman / woman and senators will never truly work for the people. Common sense tells you that large donors expect something for their financial support....and they get it. Wall Street gets none/weak laws and bailouts. Drug companies get what want - non negotiated prices. Oil companies get tax breaks and a free pass to manipulate the market. Chemical companies are allowed to continue to poison us. Polluters get to continuously pollute..........

The government is for sale to the wealthiest donors. Don't expect anything to change any time soon, as you will not get even one Republican vote to limit campaign spending. Most all politicians are bought to a certain extent, but the wealthiest individuals and corporations OWN the Republicans.

 

[freemind]

i am not getting involved in this discussion except to make one observation. it seems like 90% of vapers are conservative republicans.

I am NOT a Republican.

 

[jamieg71]

Anyone that believes either of the two parties will ever have your best interest in mind is a moron. There is no differences other than rhetoric. They both serve corporate masters. Obama is a no account BUFFOON that's political position was bought and paid for, the same way Bush's presidency was bought and paid for. Obama has systematically broken EVERY SINGLE campaign promise he made. He IS Bush 2.0. If I didn't know better, Id say they were the same person. The ONLY way this country will get back on track is to impose term limits, criminalize corporate lobbying, and repeal every amendment passed since the forties. The 1940's.
People that support Obama are every bit as sad and pathetic as the morons that try to defend Bush. They both suck ass and sold you out, sold your children out, and guaranteed your grandchildren will live in an Oligarchy.
People need to learn history, fucking entire country of fucking idiots.

 

[kelli]

Anyone that believes either of the two parties will ever have your best interest in mind is a moron. There is no differences other than rhetoric. They both serve corporate masters. Obama is a no account BUFFOON that's political position was bought and paid for, the same way Bush's presidency was bought and paid for. Obama has systematically broken EVERY SINGLE campaign promise he made. He IS Bush 2.0. If I didn't know better, Id say they were the same person. The ONLY way this country will get back on track is to impose term limits, criminalize corporate lobbying, and repeal every amendment passed since the forties. The 1940's.
People that support Obama are every bit as sad and pathetic as the morons that try to defend Bush. They both suck ass and sold you out, sold your children out, and guaranteed your grandchildren will live in an Oligarchy.
People need to learn history, fucking entire country of fucking idiots.

so long as people have booze, weed, big screen tvs, nascar, NFL, video games and internet porn, things will be pretty much ok. when those things start to be taken away, that's when the trouble begins. and the gov't knows that, so they probably won't upset the apple cart too much. most people couldn't give a rat's patootie about politics or who is in office. many can't even tell you who their representatives are. but if they have their toys and their drugs of choice, they are pretty content. just my opinion of course.

 

[Saratoga Joe]

What I'm saying is he likes to blame the Repubs for all that is bad but he had total control for 2 years. He doesn't want cooperation he wants his way or the highway, over 300 bills were generated in congress the past 3 years and the Dem controlled senate refused to vote on them at his request, is that cooperation?

He wasted a whole year trying to compromise with the Republicans on the Affordable Care Act. Which by the way, was the Republican's answer to national health care, that the Democrats proposed in the 90's. The ACA is Republican legislation, but not a single Republican voted for it.

His character flaw is trying too hard to compromise with stubborn fools who carry water for the 1%.

 

[jamieg71]

so long as people have booze, weed, big screen tvs, nascar, NFL, video games and internet porn, things will be pretty much ok. when those things start to be taken away, that's when the trouble begins. and the gov't knows that, so they probably won't upset the apple cart too much. most people couldn't give a rat's patootie about politics or who is in office. many can't even tell you who their representatives are. but if they have their toys and their drugs of choice, they are pretty content. just my opinion of course.

I forgot to add a /rant at the end of that... Sorry lol
You're 100% correct. We (vapor's) will feel it soon enough, multi billion dollar industry.. It's only a matter of time before they get their claws into it. Big pharm, and tobacco will be sure of that. Same thing with our internet, it's getting ready to look like N. Korea here before long. IPs are salivating over upcoming regulations. And our reps are folding one after another. Makes me sick, think I'll have a vape and a beer and go haxx on some android.

 

[Saratoga Joe]

I remember just a few short years ago when 'Obama' was trying to stem the tide of the recession and gave everyone $300.. He wasnt the first to do it, btw, I know... But, when asked where it came from, people almost always said 'Obama! He's rich you know!?'

Another time I was talking to same people in a store about the economy and the recession, and the cashier, a very well dressed and seemingly educated person, blurted out "I just dont see wy they dont print more money?! Just print more and everyone will have lots of money and we could buy anything we wanted!".. another

Of course, when asked 'Would you want more money?' people are gonna say 'Yes'. But they are only thinking about them having more in a world where the price of goods and service remain the same. They are not thinking about the fact that if everyone received more, that the prices will go up and that extra is now worthless, keeping them where they are now.

WOW......just goes to show you the stupidity of many Americans. Chalk one up for free community colleges!

 

[jamieg71]

WOW......just goes to show you the stupidity of many Americans. Chalk one up for free community colleges!

99% of all intelligent people fail to realize the other 99% of people are stupid.

 

[Saratoga Joe]

I forgot to add a /rant at the end of that... Sorry lol
You're 100% correct. We (vapor's) will feel it soon enough, multi billion dollar industry.. It's only a matter of time before they get their claws into it. Big pharm, and tobacco will be sure of that. Same thing with our internet, it's getting ready to look like N. Korea here before long. IPs are salivating over upcoming regulations. And our reps are folding one after another. Makes me sick, think I'll have a vape and a beer and go haxx on some android.

OK, people blame the government for too much intervention....fine. The intervention is started by your previously mentioned "big pharm and tobacco" and "our internet" (cable companies). Powerful corporations and the US Chamber of Commerce write most of the laws through ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council). They then push them through lobbying politicians, who pass them. So when the vaping laws and screwed up internet rules start rolling out, thank your Republican congress. They will be backing big pharm, tobacco and Comcast 100%. For the most part, they are corporate driven, not consumer driven.

 

[jamieg71]

OK, people blame the government for too much intervention....fine. The intervention is started by your previously mentioned "big pharm and tobacco" and "our internet" (cable companies). Powerful corporations and the US Chamber of Commerce write most of the laws through ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council). They then push them through lobbying politicians, who pass them. So when the vaping laws and screwed up internet rules start rolling out, thank your Republican congress. They will be backing big pharm, tobacco and Comcast 100%. For the most part, they are corporate driven, not consumer driven.

Geez, seriously? I'm NOT a fucking republican, and that sure as hell is not "my" congress. Read my prior comments. BOTH parties are a joke and anyone that thinks one party is "better" or has the "answers" is a moronic twit. Same goes for the Tea party as well. I'm a proponent of the Tenth Amendment. If half the dumb ass morons that argue for Democrat or Republican had learned anything about our Constitution, they would be on the same band wagon as me.
You can't fix stupid by throwing ignorance at it.

 

[galsvapetoo]

Don't forget about when she pulls it out of a Gucci purse and loads those groceries into a brand new Mercedes

Amen I'll be able to afford a Gucci purse when I retire. Oh wait I'll probably never get to retire even with my 401k

 

[BoomStick]

The unholy alliance between politicians and big business was started by politicians who were pissed off at the wealth acquired by business men during the industrial revolution. You really think businesses like having to buy politicians so their business doesn't get regulated out of existence? They both play the game, but lets not forget who established and still controls the game. Oh, I remember. The progressive politicians. By the way, the progressives have infected both parties. It's not about right vs left. It's about right vs wrong.

 

[MD_Boater]

He managed to sucker people into voting him into a second term. Does that count? lol

Uh... Well, yes. It does.

He wasted a whole year trying to compromise with the Republicans on the Affordable Care Act. Which by the way, was the Republican's answer to national health care, that the Democrats proposed in the 90's. The ACA is Republican legislation, but not a single Republican voted for it. His character flaw is trying too hard to compromise with stubborn fools who carry water for the 1%.

I would submit that the "Republican" that "wrote" the ACA is no Republican at all.

OK, people blame the government for too much intervention....fine. The intervention is started by your previously mentioned "big pharm and tobacco" and "our internet" (cable companies). Powerful corporations and the US Chamber of Commerce write most of the laws through ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council). They then push them through lobbying politicians, who pass them. So when the vaping laws and screwed up internet rules start rolling out, thank your Republican congress. They will be backing big pharm, tobacco and Comcast 100%. For the most part, they are corporate driven, not consumer driven.

From our friends at CASAA - "As noted in our blog last week, Representatives Boehner, McCarthy, and Upton wrote a letter to the Secretary of Health and Human Services suggesting that the grandfather date of February 15, 2007 for "new tobacco products" under the Tobacco Control Act (TCA) be changed. Such a change would result in tens of thousands of e-cigarette products not being summarily removed from the market, so we believe this presents a huge opportunity for consumers.".

Clearly, you have not been paying attention. Look up all of the actions regarding eCigs that took place prior to the event in the CASAA quote above. If you can find 2 instances in which Republicans started an anti-vaping action, I would be shocked. The Democrats are the ones trying to save their BT and BP buddies, not the Republicans.

The worst part about being a Republican is watching the Democrats successfully convince people that we believe what we do not actually believe. Either they are absolute masters of deception, or their audience is particularly gullible. I am not sure which, but one or both is the case.

 

[BoomStick]

The people that haven't figured it out by now probably never will.

I refuse to argue with stubborn ignorance. Thread unwatched.

 

[vaperature]

Obama said he would veto any new sanctions against Iran. What do people think about that?

 

[MD_Boater]

Obama said he would veto any new sanctions against Iran. What do people think about that?

 

[No Ash More Cash]

True, with one correction. The banks had sold off the risky mortgages in the form of derivatives to the investment companies (AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc..), which got bailed out. It wasn't the banks that got bailed out.

The list is so long I can't even post all of them here... Sad to say but most of them were Banks...The mainstream media didn't tell us the whole story like always
Everyone who got Tax payers interest free bailout money.....Be ready to be shocked and disgusted

http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

 

[No Ash More Cash]

All talking politics does is piss people off at each other, and lower folks opinion of each other !

What's wrong with that?

 

[Saratoga Joe]

The list is so long I can't even post all of them here... Sad to say but most of them were Banks...The mainstream media didn't tell us the whole story like always
Everyone who got Tax payers interest free bailout money.....Be ready to be shocked and disgusted

http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

Looks like a profit to me....see "net to date". It was not interest free...see "dividends, interest and fees".
950 Recipients
$613B Total disbursement
$390B Total returned
$278B Total revenues from dividends, interest, and other fees
$53.8B Total net to date

 

[Saratoga Joe]

Uh... Well, yes. It does.
I would submit that the "Republican" that "wrote" the ACA is no Republican at all.
From our friends at CASAA - "As noted in our blog last week, Representatives Boehner, McCarthy, and Upton wrote a letter to the Secretary of Health and Human Services suggesting that the grandfather date of February 15, 2007 for "new tobacco products" under the Tobacco Control Act (TCA) be changed. Such a change would result in tens of thousands of e-cigarette products not being summarily removed from the market, so we believe this presents a huge opportunity for consumers.".

Clearly, you have not been paying attention. Look up all of the actions regarding eCigs that took place prior to the event in the CASAA quote above. If you can find 2 instances in which Republicans started an anti-vaping action, I would be shocked. The Democrats are the ones trying to save their BT and BP buddies, not the Republicans.

The worst part about being a Republican is watching the Democrats successfully convince people that we believe what we do not actually believe. Either they are absolute masters of deception, or their audience is particularly gullible. I am not sure which, but one or both is the case.

From The Tampa Bay Times and Politifact..............

Republican Sen. John Chafee of Rhode Island was the point man. The bill he introduced, Health Equity and Access Reform Today, (yes, that spells HEART) had a list of 20 co-sponsors that was a who’s who of Republican leadership. There was Minority Leader Bob Dole, R- Kan., Sens. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and many others. There also were two Democratic co-sponsors.
Among other features, the Chafee bill included:

• An individual mandate;
• Creation of purchasing pools;
• Standardized benefits;
• Vouchers for the poor to buy insurance;
• A ban on denying coverage based on a pre-existing condition.

"You would find a great deal of similarity to provisions in the Affordable Care Act," Sheila Burke, Dole’s chief of staff in 1993, told PunditFact via email. "The guys were way ahead of the times!! Different crowd, different time, suffice it to say."

 

[Saratoga Joe]

Uh... Well, yes. It does.
I would submit that the "Republican" that "wrote" the ACA is no Republican at all.
From our friends at CASAA - "As noted in our blog last week, Representatives Boehner, McCarthy, and Upton wrote a letter to the Secretary of Health and Human Services suggesting that the grandfather date of February 15, 2007 for "new tobacco products" under the Tobacco Control Act (TCA) be changed. Such a change would result in tens of thousands of e-cigarette products not being summarily removed from the market, so we believe this presents a huge opportunity for consumers.".

Clearly, you have not been paying attention. Look up all of the actions regarding eCigs that took place prior to the event in the CASAA quote above. If you can find 2 instances in which Republicans started an anti-vaping action, I would be shocked. The Democrats are the ones trying to save their BT and BP buddies, not the Republicans.

The worst part about being a Republican is watching the Democrats successfully convince people that we believe what we do not actually believe. Either they are absolute masters of deception, or their audience is particularly gullible. I am not sure which, but one or both is the case.

You can google the voting records of McConnell and Boehner on tobacco, big pharma, big oil, big chemical and internet providers yourself. You may be surprised.