Vaping Militia should consider changing its name

[nachtnoir]

Jeremy, Thanks for the input. We also agree with you on evidence based science. I would like to invite you to give a listen to The Vaping Militia Radio's most recent podcast from last Friday night. There is a long discussion on this exact subject and spend quite a bit of time discussing vapers acceptance of the studies that tell hem want to hear and attack those that don't.

http://thevapingmilitia.org/vaping-militia-radio/

 

[jae]

Jeremy, Thanks for the input. We also agree with you on evidence based science. I would like to invite you to give a listen to The Vaping Militia Radio's most recent podcast from last Friday night. There is a long discussion on this exact subject and spend quite a bit of time discussing vapers acceptance of the studies that tell hem want to hear and attack those that don't.

http://thevapingmilitia.org/vaping-militia-radio/

Vaping In A Black Market - Episode 2?

WAY more than happy to give a listen to that actually. But i swear to fuck i will tap the mute key every time the word "militia" is used so i don't hurt my little ears.

 

[nachtnoir]

No episode 3 is the one. Episode 2 is also great, but 3 tackles the attack on science in the second half

 

[Joe Barnett]

Thank you Jeremy for your concerns, we did take a number of concerns in to play when we chose the name for our organization. Our goal was to attract those the wanted to be active and not just sign a petition and walk away, to that point we have been quite effective. I will say, as I have said before, the concept we promote is a group that empowers others. If you can find a single post that incites other than reasonable political discourse please let me know because I personally feel we have failed our mission. I hope that rests your fears.

 

[Roger Schaeffer]

I don't know I am quite liberal and lean strongly left. I don't Like the National Rifle Association but they demand my respect. I have no problem with the term Militia- an organized group of Citizens ready to do battle-armed or unarmed-to protect their Rights.But if You can do effective advocacy or attempt to do so with another group-their are several good ones out there- or on your own You have my respect. Sadly it is my belief that most Vapers are not willing to do so.I will still attempt to secure my[ and yours] right to freely use this innovative technology

 

[jae]

No episode 3 is the one. Episode 2 is also great, but 3 tackles the attack on science in the second half

There's no dates on these. I only see two eps on that page. Please tell me it's Childproof Caps for Ejuice - Episode 1

 

[nachtnoir]

try this Jeremy..... https://soundcloud.com/soundcloud.com%2Fthevapingmilitia%2Fvaping-ourselves-into-oblivion-episode-3

 

[jae]

try this Jeremy.....
https://soundcloud.com/soundcloud.com%2Fthevapingmilitia%2Fvaping-ourselves-into-oblivion-episode-3

Eh, i will in a bit. Right now i'm busy with the other episodes.

[EDIT] Oh, haha, i actually had found it on Soundcloud and completely forgot because i was still listening to one of the other ones while furiously posting on other threads here. Heh. #derp

 

[TruckCentral]

So Tom.. Just what is your intent here? To stir up shit? or are you merely trying to find out more about us?
I challenged you and Jeremy to find out more about us. Come join us in a hang out and lets talk. Go look through our website and see what kind of things we do. Come and find out what we truly do. We are in hangouts nightly discussing what and how we can be more effective. Come be a part of the solution and not the problem. Again if you don't like our name join another group but don't just sit on your ass and talk shit about a group that has dedicated a lot of personal time to fight for our rights. Yours too. If you have truly looked into what it is we do I think you would have better things to say even if you don't like the name.

For those who rather take the opportunity to "be cool" and trash talk or lend a dumb ass name purely to get a rise out of someone you too are a waste of time. We as a vaping community need to come together and not fuckin be divided over a damn name. NO WE WILL NEVER CHANGE THE NAME.. Get over it.. WE WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR OUR VAPING RIGHTS and if you don't want to be a part of it fine. Step aside because we will keep on doing as we are doing with the help of those who can think for themselves and make a decision based on our actions not some smear campaign you seem to have started.

Like you, we are passionate about what we do and would like to see you with us not against us but we also know we can't please everyone nor will we. You are with us or against us, yours to decide. Vape On!

Art B.
aka TruckCentral
Co-Founder and Financial Director
The Vaping Militia LLC

 

[tombaker]

Misinformation

The Vaping Militia Call Outs group is not affiliated with the Vaping Militia in any official manner, it was started by Jeremy Colvin and a few other people to increase awareness. We thank him for his efforts and would also like to point out that he is also an administrator on the Vaping Underground. If Jeremy enjoys his firearms that is his business.
Your search for the Bundesadler is a bit disengenuous at best. The Eagle has been used in heraldry for hundreds of years. The German's are not the only group to use it. I will use a Google search of my own to illustrate this.

A simple internet search will find this clip art as a "Phoenix".

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&biw=320&bih=460&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=HtrWU8bdBoeK8QGQw4GIAQ&q=black and white america eagle symbol&oq&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.1.41l2.2441.4551.0.6378.18.17.0.1.1.12.516.2451.5j9j0j1j0j1.16.0....0...1c.1.49.mobile-gws-serp..13.5.364.2.ocunER-uJ2g#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=00mIkjFOKItDHM%3A;A-bsAgmbJQPCfM;http%3A%2F%2Fthumb1.shutterstock.com%2Fdisplay_pic_with_logo%2F548344%2F548344%2C1322123684%2C4%2Fstock-vector-heraldic-eagle-set-eagle-silhouettes-heraldic-design-elements-eagle-vector-collection-89629186.jpg;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shutterstock.com%2Fs%2Fphoenix%2Fsearch.html;450;409

The point is TomBaker, you can make anything look bad if you want to. Your search parameters show you wanted it to look like a Bundesadler. You misdirect vapers from the important information and tear down the work of those greater than you.

Nachtnoir, next.
What you call misinformation, is exactly what I found on Facebook, from Google. The point being the guy running Vaping Militia Call Outs, is featured in his prime photo next to a Military Snipper rifle. It is what it is, and its just a liability of naming something a Militia. The point is the liablity of the Militia name, thats it. Read the OP.

Nachtnoir, is it an Eagle or a mythical Phoenix which is not actually a real thing, and not an eagle too. Pick one.
You did not pick a Phoenix regardless, and your web search above just should prove it to you. Your search. Try clicking the link you provide. It goes to http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-896...llection.html?src=pDYANiUJG+m/5axS3dL8ew-1-69 Which are NOT Phoneix, they are Eagles.

I would have suggested that you stick with an American Eagle, not the one used specifically by Germany, on Flags, as national symbols. As being the vehicle to carry another symbol to others. You used a symbol because it had meaning right????? Right? Well you didn't understand the history, thats it. Fin.

So sorry for saying you could have used a patriotic image to the USA, but you THINK you used a Phoenix......you didn't know any better, fine. But don't complain if someone points it out.

Lastly, Oh gosh you are so much Greater than Me. Does that make what I say not true. Did you listen to anyone else? You realize this thread was started by someone else. Your realize the just Recently when you went on with Phil Busardo, that he told you guys that MANY VAPERS have a problem with the name. Deaf ears dude. Maybe you might want to consider Marketing instead of focusing on portraying a history which you are not informated on, and using symbolism of a country that the USA fought twice.

Whatever, right?
I pointed out the names sucks, you don't care, I pointed out you used a German national symbol for the emblem of the Militia, that's correct. I can go on pointing out the facts to you over and over. Why, its done. You will do as you do.

 

[jae]

Thank you Jeremy for your concerns, we did take a number of concerns in to play when we chose the name for our organization. Our goal was to attract those the wanted to be active and not just sign a petition and walk away, to that point we have been quite effective. I will say, as I have said before, the concept we promote is a group that empowers others. If you can find a single post that incites other than reasonable political discourse please let me know because I personally feel we have failed our mission. I hope that rests your fears.

No, i haven't found that content in text, and would not suggest that i have; just in the overall military-butch vibe of the name and graphics. (I don't honestly mean that to be derogatory, though i'm sure it might sound like it.) But i just can't align myself with VM, not 100%, because for one thing i'd have to buy all the gear (i mean come on, it's like kink - once you join up you gotta buy all the stuff amirite? no problem there), but frankly i'm a proudly progressive pacifist pussy who just really does not want to feel compelled to answer dumb questions on the street from NRA fans or macho ex-Marines about my non-existent background in firearms and/or the military just because i'm wearing dogtags and a t-shirt with quasi-revolutionary graphics... or from people who think i'm probably some kind of scary anti-gummint Unibomber McVeigh who's maybe armed and liable to go off or blow up that van parked outside.

Or from family or distant friends who think they've heard through the grapevine that i might have joined "some kind of militia or something" (question mark). Because they 'all had their suspicions,' because i 'came from a broken home so whaddya expect,' because they suddenly 'knew all along i was somehow heading toward trouble but just didn't think it was that serious until now,' etc., etc.

And i sure don't want anybody to "see something, say something" on me, and put me through any stupid DHS hassle just because they think they saw i was waving a flag with "what looks like" a grenade on it. (Never mind that you and i know better than that.)

That's sincerely not meant to sound flippant. It really is all about the branding. That may sound superficial, but branding and imagery sets the tone for any conversations that follow, and i just really don't think in-your-face, aggressive, confrontational branding is going to be positive in winning hearts and minds.

Do what you feel is best though and i absolutely wish you luck, and you definitely have my thanks for any advocacy you do regardless. Disagreement is agreeable enough.

 

[Myk]

Maybe a name like Vaping Weathermen, Vaping Panthers, Vaping Liberation Army, Nation of Vapers, The People's Vaping Liberation Front or Vaping Underground (wait, that ones taken) would suit some better.
Seriously, you've got a problem with "militia" yet you're on a forum with this name?

 

[jae]

Maybe a name like Vaping Weathermen, Vaping Panthers, Vaping Liberation Army, Nation of Vapers, The People's Vaping Liberation Front or Vaping Underground (wait, that ones taken) would suit some better.
Seriously, you've got a problem with "militia" yet you're on a forum with this name?

Sure! Why not?

And i'd actually kinda like something like Vaper's Liberation Front, because at least that's got some element of tongue-in-cheek parody to it these days. But i'm a bona-fide weirdo, so there's that.

 

[Jose Nava]

Being the person who had started the thread I feel like I should perhaps share a thought. I want to start off by saying that it was never my intention to start this thread for the sake of argument, or just be controversial. It's not the type of person that I would like to be associated as. With that being said, I still feel that personally, it would be difficult and uncomfortable for me to be associated in a group that has a name that does not express who I feel I am as a person. I know the name militia, and in the different ways it has been used and continues to be used and the way it may be used, is based on subjective representation. Perhaps, I may be alone, but my post was merely meant to be a thought or an idea. One thing I must say is that I admire greatly what the organization is trying to do, and the persistence in which they do it in. They are here to try to stand up for our right to vape. No matter what the name may be, it is always a welcome to find an organization willing to stand up for the rights of others. I also strongly admire the fact that they continue to keep their name. As uncomfortable as the name may make me feel, and perhaps others feel, they still continue to keep it and move forward. And, if you think about it, isn't that the type of willpower that you would want someone to have, if they had to defend you? I know I would.

 

[Joe Barnett]

Thank you Jose, WE try with all we have to do what is right.

 

[kelli]

i think you guys are spending a lot of time defending the name of your organization......time that could be spent doing advocacy work. just sayin'.....

 

[Roger Schaeffer]

Its worth defending

 

[tombaker]

The Vaping Militia's task is not to stand in front of City Coucils and testify. Our task is to alert vapers where the threats are, to prepare them with documentation and education so that they can stand and defend themselves. We have never and will never annouce ourselves as members of the Vaping Militia in that way. When we do have to testify we do so as private citizens. The people we have helped wih their defense will tell you that we never ask them to state that they are members of the Militia. We are the alert system to warn that the enemy is coming.

As for you TomBaker, I am smiling now, because in a way you legitimize our work by trolling us. You have attacked Greg Conley, CASAA and almost every leader in advocacy so we become more relevant when you troll us. I would also like to thank you because we have added about 15 new members today. Thank you for the publicity. I would like to point out that in almost every case of your trolling you have fabricated information or misquoted people, or all out made up information in every possible way. I will just post a few examples here. The funny thing is you did a lot of this in this thread alone so I won't have to look very far.

nachtnoir: And so to these items above.
1. If the Vaping Militia is "not to stand" in front of City Councils, I don't understand how it translates to your charter of Activism. I thought that was the value add of the group. CASAA already notifies vapers of threats, prepares them with plenty of documentation etc.

2. I don't understand how you will not announce yourselves in any way, while being activists. Especially when you are wearing rather loud T-Shirts.

3. Yes I get that you are private Citizens when you testify or whatnot to local governments, was there any confusion on this, to why you thought it need be said?

4. You say "we never ask them to state that they are members of the Militia" that's a bit of an odd turn of a phrase. Do you actually think you are a Militia instead of just a Marketing Tag? Member of the group, or Militia? If Militia, how is that different than a group, if anything.

5. Do you even know what the jargon word "troll" means? You are the fellow using insults. I abhor group think, and deal with facts, and express them in a dialogue.

6. I am not the source of any legitimizing, nor would you need any from me, and you should not for a moment think, I understand that to be my place. In the community, I have my own voice, it stand on only that merit, and what I can present.

7. You say I have attacked Greg Conley. This is news. What was that? I know what my most recent interactions with him are. He asked for feedback on a Press release prior to it going out. I gave that feedback. I said that I don't think attacking Vaping Shop owners for their advocacy and what they said in a positive news story was necessary. And I have most recently ask him what the AVA opinion on Hardware without Nicotine, and the ablity of the FDA to regulate it under current law documented by the Deeming. Mr. Conoly is an attorney, and capable, if he thought himself being attacked, I think he would say something. He is busy, so I will wait for a response, or he won't give one. What are you referring to?

8. I have been critical of CASAA on some items for sure. Attacked is a bit much, but its your view, so complain. I have expressed to them that waiting until the last moments to comment to the FDA was risky. I said that in late May early June on ECF, and for the thread I have posted in Other Advocacy on Hardware regulations. I am not under the allusion I am doing anything other than being one voice, and saying something, and backing it up with facts is all I can do. I do have the facts on what I say about the FDA, and my opinion is just mine.

9. You say: "I would like to point out that in almost every case of your trolling you have fabricated information or misquoted people, or all out made up information in every possible way." The image was not a phoneix, as you know, I already explain the other point I was making on this thread......SO NOW, please go ahead and show what you are saying. Back it up. Go ahead. Do it. Will you bring up some totally trivial error, because that is all you are going to be able to do. I have created detailed threads explaining the FDA stuff, but I do it with the actual text of the documents. I can defend everything I have said, and back it up. Will be able to do it here. You want to start a new thread to do it, please. I can prove things like the FDA is not able or intending to Regulate Hardware without Nicotine. You guys think that is BS. I will create a thread for that.

Nachtnoir, either back it up, retract it, or whatever. But unlike ECF, you can not complain enough in tribute to utter groupthink, and get me banned. So engage in discussion, or flee. I stand of facts, you stand all giggly giggly calling me a troll and thinking that profound.
So can you back it up.......or let me guess.....you will flee, and run, saying gosh darn golly, I got no time for this.
Because I am calling BS on that here and now. You got no time, for what you don't have the facts of. Stand up or remain seated.

 

[tombaker]

i think you guys are spending a lot of time defending the name of your organization......time that could be spent doing advocacy work. just sayin'.....

You have to read and listen to their charter, they don't do advocacy at all, they say that. They do activism. As explained on this thread getting the word out, and having vaping source materials.

The name is marketing folly, but all people could do was not buy "New Coke", same with their name, its up to them.

 

[tombaker]

So Tom..

Just what is your intent here? To stir up shit? or are you merely trying to find out more about us?

Agree with the OP, say why I think the name is error. and Neither.

I challenged you and Jeremy to find out more about us. Come join us in a hang out and lets talk. Go look through our website and see what kind of things we do. Come and find out what we truly do. We are in hangouts nightly discussing what and how we can be more effective. Come be a part of the solution and not the problem. Again if you don't like our name join another group but don't just sit on your ass and talk shit about a group that has dedicated a lot of personal time to fight for our rights. Yours too. If you have truly looked into what it is we do I think you would have better things to say even if you don't like the name.

I have already done the above looking, and remaining listening. Is your Friday thing a call-in, or one way, I have already heard the other stuff on them. Oddly not wanting to mention Dr. F's name, alluding to me having some sort of facts wrong on the 2nd request for extension 3 weeks after the first was given. I am confused to if you don't do activisim, reading the FDA documents etc, goal would be. I have not talked shit about your group. I think its odd that you are surprised that people think the name is sub par, and needs to be changed. If that is shit, you have very tender sensibilities. I have spent a ton of time of this stuff, and simularly don't want it wasted. But as far as names, I get called a bunch of them.

For those who rather take the opportunity to "be cool" and trash talk or lend a dumb ass name purely to get a rise out of someone you too are a waste of time. We as a vaping community need to come together and not fuckin be divided over a damn name. NO WE WILL NEVER CHANGE THE NAME.. Get over it.. WE WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR OUR VAPING RIGHTS and if you don't want to be a part of it fine. Step aside because we will keep on doing as we are doing with the help of those who can think for themselves and make a decision based on our actions not some smear campaign you seem to have started.

Nobody is being cool, its not trash talk, its simply a concern that the terminology and imagery, while fun for a tree-fort club, is not going to be effective for the cause in point. Jeremy has made some very clever ways of pointing that out. Sorry you guys are stuck on the name, you will just have to tollerate that a bunch of folks are going to think the name is not good. Say it on a thread. You will have to ignore it. If I see the name be misused in the press, not in our favor, you can be sure another thread will pop up, and likely I will be one of the next posters on it.

Do what you do, whatever that is, whatever those accomplishments are, but shitcan your garbage about "step aside". I don't recognize your authority. I don't bow my flag for your quasi-clubhouse militia blurbage. My eagle is bald, buddy!

You will take help from those that can think for themselves? Really, are you so sure? Complaining about a smear campaign, what is this FIFA soccer? Flopping on the ground claiming a foul, who the heck smeared you? How? Do I need to say poor baby? Suck it up, keep going already.

Like you, we are passionate about what we do and would like to see you with us not against us but we also know we can't please everyone nor will we. You are with us or against us, yours to decide. Vape On!

With your "You are with us or against us, yours to decide." WTF. Are you serioius. Maybe you are an a terrible driver, and going to go all lemming on us, and say CHARGE everyone...over the Cliff. I am not with you.....and you will shortly be nowhere at all. I refuse to be bound in your example of only with you or against, I may not even be near you. I am wherever I want, that whole freedom thing. You realize there are other things, than "with you", that are a positive for Vapers?. Do you think With YOU, it the only option? Any other option....is against you and the Militia? Real question.....deserves an answer.

 

[pageanmoon]

When I first saw the name Vaping Militia the only thought I had was that is was a group that was willing to FIGHT with us for our rights. Not joining an organization simply because of the name without actually looking at it what their mission statement is, is a bit short sighted if you ask me

 

[nachtnoir]

TomBaker I only have to send the readers to the WeAreCASAA Facebook group to show your history. As far as our role in the community. CASAA has stepped back from alerts on the local level and asked us to take that area. They no longer issue CallToActions for alerts at that level. As far as the name being folly, I totally disagree. I don't think we need to justify our work, but here is a short list of what we have done in a short 6 months.


We have helped form state level advocacy groups in over 40 states.
We have prepared vapers to testify and gotten many over restrictive ordinances altered to help vapers keep there right to vape in reasonable areas instead of all out public bans.
In Watauga, TX we helped local shops band together with vapers and had an all out ban on vape shops within the city repealed.
In Oregon Militia members stood and defended vaping and got an all out public ban changed to a less restrictive ordinance.
We have grown to over 4600 members and have 600+ supporting members who have agreed to be ready to answer a call and defend vapers rights.

As far as FDA's intent on regulating hardware I only have the proposed regs and interviews with FDA leaders and reps to go by. Their intent is quite cloudy, but there is quite a few times where Zeller and others have stated that it is possible.

As far as wearing a tshirt to testify in front of a city council. Most city councils ask that you dress appropriately. We ask people to dress in a manner that will allow them to be taken seriously. Wearing a tshirt even one of our awesome ones would distract from the message.

 

[kelli]

Being the person who had started the thread I feel like I should perhaps share a thought. I want to start off by saying that it was never my intention to start this thread for the sake of argument, or just be controversial. It's not the type of person that I would like to be associated as. With that being said, I still feel that personally, it would be difficult and uncomfortable for me to be associated in a group that has a name that does not express who I feel I am as a person. I know the name militia, and in the different ways it has been used and continues to be used and the way it may be used, is based on subjective representation. Perhaps, I may be alone, but my post was merely meant to be a thought or an idea. One thing I must say is that I admire greatly what the organization is trying to do, and the persistence in which they do it in. They are here to try to stand up for our right to vape. No matter what the name may be, it is always a welcome to find an organization willing to stand up for the rights of others. I also strongly admire the fact that they continue to keep their name. As uncomfortable as the name may make me feel, and perhaps others feel, they still continue to keep it and move forward. And, if you think about it, isn't that the type of willpower that you would want someone to have, if they had to defend you? I know I would.

^+1
but i am out of this thread because it turned contentious. that's no fun.

 

[tombaker]

TomBaker

I only have to send the readers to the WeAreCASAA Facebook group to show your history.

Well then do it, don't just sit there, do it. Show all these things I said that you feel so wronged by. What is you complaint? You did the moaning attack, now you can not even pony up an excuse? This is what I asked you to back up. Conoly has not complained, or responded, but you assert I attacked him. Don't chickenshit your way out of it, back it up. Is this all it takes for you to buckle cave and run? I just need to ask you to back it up, and you flee? Stand up for what your claims are. Or fold, but tell the table you are mucking your bluff.

I don't think we need to justify our work, but here is a short list of what we have done in a short 6 months.

Are you not reading? Did you read my item 6 above. http://vapingunderground.com/thread...ider-changing-its-name.5245/page-2#post-48050 You don't need to show me what you have done, you don't need my approval, I am not questioning your accomplishments. Its a good thing to publish them, for everyone, and I will certainly be interested in reading about them as well. Credit where credit is due. But read what I wrote, before just ducking, obfuscating, and ignoring what I said to you in item 6.

As far as our role in the community. CASAA has stepped back from alerts on the local level and asked us to take that area. They no longer issue CallToActions for alerts at that level. As far as the name being folly, I totally disagree.

Well that is indeed news to me. Did CASAA publish that? I have essentially seen no difference in the actions and duties of the VM and CASAA, the differences were slight, or actually VM just seemed to be an appendage of CASAA, being tasked by them. I watched what you guys said on Busardo, and I did not hear this change.

But if you have split off the local side, and CASAA will work the State side, it could well be an enhancement that will have benefits. I wish that effort well, and do think dropped the communicating that out part....but heck maybe I just did not see it. I think all the action and problems are on the local side, with the biggest dangers being zoning of stores, and bans in private businesses like Bars and Restaruants.

Its kinda frustrating because you got all bitchy and complaining about feedback on your name, because it comes from me, but when Busardo says same, its no issue. And so it goes. BTW, its still not a fucking Phoneix, its German Bird still used on some of the official flags of Germany. Though they also know the history, and are kinda trying to only use the tri-color. Wiki Wiki

As far as FDA's intent on regulating hardware I only have the proposed regs and interviews with FDA leaders and reps to go by. Their intent is quite cloudy, but there is quite a few times where Zeller and others have stated that it is possible.

Well here is why I was trying to contact Greg, because it states in black and white, they can not regulate APV hardware, and they won't be. For me to even point something like this out to British American Tobacco's Carl Philips causes him to have a cow, complain, and stop threads. Did you think I attacked Carl when I pointed out the FDA has defined the metrics that will be used to calculate the Public Health Benefit of E-Cigs, and that dual usage unlike what Glantz thinks, falls within the criteria of public good. Or is that something you think I should be allowed to say, without being banned?

I am not the fastest, but I keep going, used to kinda suck, but with so many folks that can not think beyond 140 characters, it has uses. Still with me, or you quit.

As far as wearing a tshirt to testify in front of a city council. Most city councils ask that you dress appropriately. We ask people to dress in a manner that will allow them to be taken seriously. Wearing a tshirt even one of our awesome ones would distract from the message.

Again, its why I asked you about what you said. You say that you do not identify yourself, ever, and do not go to councils to be known, kinda a free-masons form of Advocacy, secret handshake to acknowledge you are in the room. Confusing.

This is what you said, that I asked to explain. You did not really do that, and the little you did explaining it, not really addressed the questions. Those essentially were the first 5 items ignored. I did put numbers on them, if you do want to address them, but make no mistake you don't need to do anything for me, beyond what you choose. Except for backing up your complaints about me.

The Vaping Militia's task is not to stand in front of City Councils and testify. Our task is to alert vapers where the threats are, to prepare them with documentation and education so that they can stand and defend themselves. We have never and will never announce ourselves as members of the Vaping Militia in that way. When we do have to testify we do so as private citizens. The people we have helped with their defense will tell you that we never ask them to state that they are members of the Militia.

Lastly and I am not sure if you heard this or not, a lot of people think you name is sub-par, and you are saying you need to hide it, not let anyone know, don't even announce you are in the room.......have you thought changing your name to avoid all that.

Or are you thinking the Retro-Chic Beavis and Butthead T-Shirt look is the way to go still?

 

[pageanmoon]

Why is it that every time I see a thread in any vaping group or forum that Tom takes part in, it seems that all he wants to do is argue? And when called out on anything he resorts to either talking in circles or trying to belittle people?

 

[Vapo]

LMAO...That sir is NOT a Bundesaldler. That sir is a Pheonix it was put there in memory of a dear friend and fellow vaper that had passed away. Ignorance is so bliss. You need to know more facts before you let the diarrhea flow from your blow hole!!

Huhboy...as posted before revisionist history has given militia a bad name these days and a militia well regulated is still a good thing.
I was even about to check you out and then you wrote this garbage. I don't know about others but for me, you just convinced me you don't have the character, discipline, diplomacy or grasp of the english language to kindly make your point to people who probably agree for the most part in your endeavors . That said, you can't possibly reach the opposition if this is the way you conduct yourself in discussion and debate. Best you change your tactics, language and learn not to use personal attacks if you want to gain support and followers. No matter your name you just lost me to even look into your org as i've already spent my time on the junior high school play ground. Grow up a little and start over or your doomed to be a side show.

 

[Julius Morrow]

Mr. Thomas Baker - The TROLL IS BACK. Wow! I knew he would find a new forum to troll. I watched this guy crash and burn over on ECF. He went on Russ' Click Bang Show and cried about them banning him for life. Russ was like "Forget about ECF, it's done! Your not getting unbanned!" So funny. Go listen to that show...hilarious. One thing I know about Thomas... he is the most NEGATIVE vaper in the community. Some of the things he spews out, I have to think he is either working for the ANTZ or the most unhappiest person in our community. COMPLAINS about everything that is wrong but sits on his ass and does nothing to contribute or help. When was the last time you were fighting at a city council or state senate for vaping rights? Probably never. If you did, you probably bored them to death with your constant rambling. Give it time here, Thomas. You will run your mouth like you did on ECF and probably get banned here too. Just watch.

 

[Julius Morrow]

then you wrote this garbage.

So by this statement "That sir is a Pheonix it was put there in memory of a dear friend and fellow vaper that had passed away". This is considered garbage. How insensitive are you? This shows no character on your part, sir. Now who is playing on the junior high school playground. I see fingers pointing at Vapo!

 

[pageanmoon]

I've come to the conclusion that Mr. Baker thinks he is more important than he actually is...I do believe I will just ignore him from now...he isn't the worth the time..

 

[Vapo]

So by this statement "That sir is a Pheonix it was put there in memory of a dear friend and fellow vaper that had passed away". This is considered garbage. How insensitive are you? This shows no character on your part, sir. Now who is playing on the junior high school playground. I see fingers pointing at Vapo!

Stop being silly and myopic. Why didn't you repost the rest of your statement? Here, so you understand I'll repost it for you...
"Ignorance is so bliss. You need to know more facts before you let the diarrhea flow from your blow hole!!"
Silly, sophmoric, unintelligent bovine scatter.

I'll have to agree with pageanmoon if you are the Baker she speaks of, you're like most children trying to get attention any way you can. You might consider changing your tactics.Be assured that I will warn the vapers I know and meet to steer clear of you and your so called militia. We have plenty of problems with big tobacco and government trying to take a good thing from us without people like you trying to hand it to them on a silver platter with your attitude and loutish behavior. I'm just hoping you aren't the "leader" of this "militia".

 

[thelesserman]

I need to ban myself from this thread

 

[kelli]

I need to ban myself from this thread

 

[thelesserman]

Be assured Vapo, Mr Baker is neither a leader, nor a participant of "this militia". However, we are very thankful for his "loutish behavior" and he has brought many new members to our organization. It seems many in the vaping community believes if Mr Baker is against something, it is probably a very good thing to be part of.

 

[chickenmonkey]

It seems to me the point of this thread were concerns over the unfortunate name that this organiztion has. I must admit that it is off putting. I am a new vaper. This is an example of what many people think of when they see the word militia
" Militia gunfire in Libya capital as inferno rages"
This is just the first example that came up in a search of today's news. I find that the name vaping militia is damaging their reputation and positive standing within both the vaping community and general public. I may look at their website later, but the name is really a deterrent.

 

[chickenmonkey]

By the way the British are here!

 

[thelesserman]

The British have been around for a long time? That is the exact reason we took the name "Militia" Non-professionals performing their civic duty fighting against the tyranny of an unjust rule over 200 years ago. Thanks for the reminder chickenmonkey

 

[Vapo]

Be assured Vapo, Mr Baker is neither a leader, nor a participant of "this militia". However, we are very thankful for his "loutish behavior" and he has brought many new members to our organization. It seems many in the vaping community believes if Mr Baker is against something, it is probably a very good thing to be part of.

Seems i got lost in the messiness of this thread. I was speaking of the garbled goo of samiam71's silly rants and infantile attacks on people and Julius's selective quoting to get sympathy from something I said. My bad, my apology. That said, with the ability shown to turn it's spears toward those in the vaping community here (probably more due to the way they do it) I'll not be a member of the "militia" and will advise others the same. I think we have enough enemies on the outside to have some dividing from the inside, debate is one thing, petulance is another animal. I can repost what I'm talking about if you wish?

 

[Myk]

It seems many in the vaping community believes if Mr Baker is against something, it is probably a very good thing to be part of.

That's pretty much how it works for me. He's what's known as a goat. Watch the goat, do the opposite. Ask your friend who's a goat their opinion on something, do the opposite.

 

[VaporJoe]

Thread officially moved to the "U MAD BRO?" area.

 

[VapinChevy]

Vaping Militia is clearly near the worst possible name.

noun: militia; plural noun: militias
a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.​

• • a military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities, typically in opposition to a regular army.

Well intended, surely, but the execution of how much good they can do, is eliminated by the name. Thanks guys for associating military, and guns, and all the rest.....to Vapers. I watched an interview with the head of the Militia on Phil Busardo, Phil questioned the name, said he and other had a problem with it, the head of group just stood by it, talked about its historical connotations.

----> So I am a city council, a woman, and I hear that a Militia wants to come into the City Council and speak in opposition to what is being talked about, that night, at night, time of year when its dark at about 7pm, when those things usually are heard. What do you think the reaction is going to be. Accepting? Wanting to hear it out? Happy a Militia has entered the halls to speak about health issues. Not a chance.

You know what the reaction will be. A couple of Sheriffs really happy. Because the City Council just told a few of them, they will be getting overtime, because the City Council wants to have some extra guys in the building for when the Militia comes to tell them they are wrong.

How about changing it from Vaping Militia to "Vaping Advocates USA"? How hard would that be?

I'm laughing my ass off to one of the definitions LMAO.... "military force that engages in rebel or *terrorist* activities".... I am NO damn terrorist, I am the guy that will save you when others refuse! Militia's are NOT terrorist! They are the second line of defense against a Tyrannical Gov't....

 

[tombaker]

I'm laughing my ass off to one of the definitions LMAO.... "military force that engages in rebel or *terrorist* activities".... I am NO damn terrorist, I am the guy that will save you when others refuse! Militia's are NOT terrorist! They are the second line of defense against a Tyrannical Gov't....

No doubt, but it is the king's English, as defined by Webster, and those definitions and perceptions won't be swung around, by proud personal testimony.

 

[tombaker]

nachtnoir and
TruckCentral
How about you guys actually respond, and back up what you said?
Its not very hard, you made claims, said you were up to the job, strong wills, ready to the test, and then when asked to simply back up what you have said, and explain things you said, run for the exits?

You said I was wrong, false or deceptive, a slew of stuff, then when asked to back it up, NOTHING.

Still think your banner bird is a mythical Phoneix, or the German Coat of Arms used in much history? Applicable because you think you know better, on the history of Militia than Websters, and the general public. If you can not figure what the bird is that was used in the Middle of German flag, why should you be able to figure out the public relations problem of using Militia. And its looking like you can not.

Then the biggest Vaping Militia presence on Facebook, features the images of a huge Sniper rifle, sure sure, their rights, and thats true, but deaf ears to the perception of the public on Militia.

Both of you, you took up with me, I stand and call you out.
Back it up, or retract it.
I remain.

 

[Spike64]

I'm an avid vaper and like what the group does and what their objectives are...that said, I dont personally care for the name choice....like it or not, the non-vaping public, or at least a good share of them, will find a negative connotation in it...that can work against us...at some level...especially when combined with some of the anti-vaping propaganda and rhetoric being purposely tossed around out there...

Just my 2 cents and worth exactly what you paid for it...

 

[nachtnoir]

You know TomBaker, I will respond. This will be the last time. Take it for what it is. I posted in response to you on a Facebook thread about two weeks ago and asked you a question for a source. You repeatedly have stated that the FDA has said that they will not regulate hardware. I asked you for a source. You never answered. So in my mind and everyone else's mind that is either a lie, or a fabrication.

"Nacht NoirTom Baker Can you please find me the link to the info regarding a FDA comment that they CAN NOT regulate hardware? I simply have not heard or read that comment from any FDA source."

Tom Baker
"5. You know that no hardware without Nicotine is able to be regulated by the FDA, per the FDA. So how do you think that there are 100,000 products."
from a post you wrote on the WeAreCASAA Facebook

"Alex Clark... the Tobacco Control Act, defines the term "tobacco product" to mean "any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, INCLUDING ANY COMPONENT, PART, OR ACCESSORY OF A TOBACCO PRODUCT (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."1 Products that meet the statutory definition of "tobacco products" can include currently marketed products such as certain dissolvables, gels, hookah tobacco, ELECTRONIC CIGARETTES, cigars, and pipe tobacco. Components and parts of tobacco products, but not their related accessories, would also be included in the scope of this proposed rule. COMPONENTS AND PARTS ARE INCLUDED AS PART OF A FINISHED TOBACCO PRODUCT OR INTENDED FOR CONSUMER USE IN THE CONSUMPTION OF A TOBACCO PRODUCT. Components and parts that would be covered under this proposal include those items sold separately or as part of kits sold or distributed for consumer use or further manufacturing or included as part of a finished tobacco product. Such examples would include air/smoke filters, tubes, papers, pouches, or flavorings used for any of the proposed deemed tobacco products (such as flavored hookah charcoals and hookah flavor enhancers) or cartridges for e-cigarettes." (“Summary of the Major Provisions of the Regulatory Action “,p. 7 - of whatever copy I have)"

Mitch Zeller even stated in the conference call the day after the regs were released that hardware would be considered a tobacco product as it is a nicotine delivery device. That any part of the hardware that would comprise the final product would be considered a tobacco product. When asked a question by and I am very sure it was Greg Conley that asked that question he stated it.

Zeller's response starts at 14:53. Under these deeming regs any hardware used as part of a completed nicotine product would fall under statutory definition of a "Tobacco Product".

When clearly they are funding research in hardware and how vapers modify it
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/insight/2014/07/13/where-theres-smoke.html

When your comment is addressed and text was quoted directly from the proposed deeming regs, you belittle and attack implying that the person reading those regs don't read it the same way as you.

When you are given clear "King's English", you divert or insult with language that belittles the poster. So if you are gonna state something as fact. You should give the source. The FDA has released no concrete application process, nor have they stated what pathway will be present once these proposed regs are finalized. There is a concensus in the industry that there will be a process similar to what the FDA does with other non-drug product approvals. Why is it that you think you know better than everyone else?

This is a sample of one of those replies where you belittle and attack.
"Tom BakerCarl Phillips, I am telling you that you have bad data, bad conclusions, and knowingly presenting a false narrative. I am informing you that you are wrong, and doing it specifically to which items. Whoop, insult, and holler, but you ignoring responding each time. I have put out clearly where you are wrong, your work, wrong. I laid out the points. Why crumble when your work is reviewed? Your math is wrong, and the FDA found that, you have completely missed see the criteria for public health benefit inside the deeming. Unlike Glantz's theory dual usage is a net positive. You know or should know that getting approval is not going to be 10 Million dollars for each item, will you acknowledge you know better? You know your claims that only Cartomizers (ie Cigalikes) will exist after the Deeming, is wrong, and that E-Liquids will be approved just like any product. All Vaping, includes E-Liquid. So why act as if raw E-Liquid approval is different. Carl, have the intellectual honesty to respond with substance. Are you able?"

Do you think there is a reason that you were banned from ECF? Other than the one you have created in your mind? It seems like there are many members here that know your hijinx and history. I found someone who even wrote a little blog with audio clips and tried to point them out to you in the past. I will post the link to that here too.

http://www.stefandidak.com/2014/06/sorry-tom-baker-youre-just-not-important-enough/

Maybe this thread did go a little off topic. But I think I will end it now. You can be upset that I called you a Liar and that you Misdirect/Misrepresent/Fabricate. I think I have seen enough of it and posted a few examples of it here. I am OK with you not liking the Militia name and am fine with you not joining. We are big fans of personal freedom. I do hope that other people can get past the name see the work that we do and find something other than their dislike of the name to join. As for your statement that the biggest presence of the Militia on Facebook being the Call-Outs group. That is indeed not correct. We have over 4600 members on our Facebook. The Call-Outs group only has 96.

I do apologize for one thing, I didn't find the post about Greg Conley, so substitute Carl Phillips there instead. I think referring to CASAA as "Astroturf" will prove an example of attacking them.

Forgive my not addressing all of your numbered issues. This should be enough of a response.

 

[Julius Morrow]

Then the biggest Vaping Militia presence on Facebook, features the images of a huge Sniper rifle, sure sure, their rights, and thats true, but deaf ears to the perception of the public on Militia.

Oh wow, there you go with the lies again, Thomas.... The biggest presence of this Vaping Militia is their facebook page which is here https://www.facebook.com/groups/thevapingmilitia/ 4600+ members. I did a search in Google, here are the results. http://prntscr.com/47q3lp

You can clearly see, their website is the first on the list, then twitter, then facebook. Not sure how you do your searches. But again, it is just you trolling again. Can you ever just leave a topic alone?

 

[Julius Morrow]

Stop being silly and myopic. Why didn't you repost the rest of your statement? Here, so you understand I'll repost it for you...
"Ignorance is so bliss. You need to know more facts before you let the diarrhea flow from your blow hole!!"
Silly, sophmoric, unintelligent bovine scatter.

I knew this would draw a response from you. You are too easy. Hahahaha. You like to sound so intelligent with your, how did you say it, "Silly, sophomoric , unintelligent bovine scatter"? WOW? SMH. Dude its just a forum, not college. No need to be so upper echelon in your language. Oh and you spelled sophomoric WRONG!

 

[tombaker]

Oh wow, there you go with the lies again, Thomas.... The biggest presence of this Vaping Militia is their facebook page which is here https://www.facebook.com/groups/thevapingmilitia/ 4600+ members. I did a search in Google, here are the results. http://prntscr.com/47q3lp

You can clearly see, their website is the first on the list, then twitter, then facebook. Not sure how you do your searches. But again, it is just you trolling again. Can you ever just leave a topic alone?

Well thanks for letting me see that Facebook Group, which I had looked for and was not able to find. Now of course you think that I was trying to make myself look foolish and clearly I had to know, yada yada yada.

Well sorry, there is something wrong with the SEO or whatever, because I was able to at least duplicate the problem and confirm it with your screen shot. The third link is https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vaping-Militia/197779013763881, that is what pops up, a dead group on Facebook, and no suggestions otherwise. Your screenshot shows the problem.

I actually did look for the group, but yes I am clearly wrong, but if nothing else by me saying what I found, and with your confirmation of the issue, hopefully VM can do whatever tweaks are necessary to correct the missed linking opportunities Or whatever is the right lingo for fixing SEO issues.

A google seach on the Vaping Militia, won't find the actual facebook page, anywhere near the top results. Won't show it on suggestions in facebook on the link Google gives, unless you specifically type "The" in before Vaping Militia, in the Facebook search side.

 

[MrScaryZ]

Definition of Militia

FYI


mi·li·tia
noun \mə-ˈli-shə\
: a group of people who are not part of the armed forces of a country but are trained like soldiers


Full Definition of MILITIA
1
a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency

b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2
: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service
See militia defined for English-language learners »
See militia defined for kids »
Origin of MILITIA
Latin, military service, from milit-, miles
First Known Use: 1625
Other Military Terms
bivouac, logistics, petard, salient, sally, supernumerary, tactical

 

[Vapo]

I knew this would draw a response from you. You are too easy. Hahahaha. You like to sound so intelligent with your, how did you say it, "Silly, sophomoric , unintelligent bovine scatter"? WOW? SMH. Dude its just a forum, not college. No need to be so upper echelon in your language. Oh and you spelled sophomoric WRONG!

Hehehe now you're going to tell me how to talk...like I need your advice, no thanks. Oh and I am sooooo sorry I missed an 'o' in a word, please forgive me I promise never to do it again. Ah hell, yes I will, it will give you something to feel right about. Oh geez Joe, please don't ban me for missing an 'o', i promise to try not to do it again.Seems that those who know you here have you pegged. I think they're wrong though, I think you're BrianJ in purple sheep skin. Come on now, tell me I'm right, come on...you can't fool me.

 

[Warhawk-AVG]

Funny...but the militia is the same group that gave the OP the opportunity to flap their gums

In case you haven't noticed...our very own government has been getting kinda "loose" on their definition of "terrorist/terrorism"
(and yes...bushyboy started the fire....but 0bie just dumped gas on it)

Don't you feel safe now that the guns that were there in our defense our pointed inwards for our "protection"

Semper Fi