Vaping Militia should consider changing its name

[tombaker]

@tombaker
A picture is a picture.. And assumptions are assumptions.. And when you lay a foundation of falsehoods, and start to build a house upon it (the argument). You never even get off the ground, with out sinking.

The purely innocent comment by the OP of this thread was a concern on the Militia name in its current form. I happened to agree and post it. A flurry of new members joint VU, taunting me calling me a liar and the rest. Much of what I have said is defending myself, to the stuff that Joe Barnett told me was essentially a useful marketing stunt to gain membership.

I get to see essentially 7 new profiles of Vaping Milita come just to this thread to either disagree the feedback on name, but mostly to go at me some more. New and starting on this thread, nothing much else.AngryAnt, MilitiaLady, VapeMeStoopid, Becky Meyer, Nachtnoir, Julius Morrow, thelesserman, and 4 Militia founders for the most part just going at this thread and me especially.TruckCentral SAMiAM71 Joe Barnett pageanmoon. Sure its also a very new forum.

Look at post 28, after being asked to check out VM, I respond the the forum I found on Facebook has a very large military snipper rifle guy (we have gone through the SEO problem with the search on Google, it does not link to the facebook group). And I asked why not just use an American Eagle, instead of the German Coat of Arms.

Then I get told its a phoneix, then I look that up, and I find its really a symbol with a ton of history, some links call it the insignia, I use that term, call it a Coat of Arms, but again I am searching to confirm its not a Phoneix. I found the Coat of Arms on shutterstock, which is either the same for the exact version that they picked. Nachtnoir show it also, then realizes it, then quiets down on the topic.

Then still being pummeled, I look into Vaping Militia, and see on the Videos, the older Skull image, with the sniper gun sight. So I then ask Joe Barnett what is going on with that. I look at the Skull without bottom jaw on Google Image search, and I find some black officer hats, with both eagle and skull on it. You think I want to be on this due diligence journey...nope.....I am doing this because Vaping Militia came out in force, calling me a liar, and a bunch of other stuff. Shit I am concerned about the local/State Bans, I can show you long posts on ECF talking about them, going over to Hayward to take notes on how the City Council there is Zoning out new Stores and going to destory the existing stores. (how destory? By zoning that they can not expand their store areas, from the original size, and calling them non-conforming, and saying that the non-conforming will eventually go away.
January 2014
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ps-urgency-ordinance-meeting-1-14-2014-a.html me, trying to highlight a problem, and saying if they succeed, other cities will model on them.

I get told--- "tombaker, I've been tracking this for MONTHS at the behest of CASAA, and coordinating with CASAA on this. I'm glad you found the Hayward issue, I'll forward it to CASAA. The board, which is 9 people with day jobs, will not be able to be heavily involved at the city level except for L.A., so they are counting on us to fight locally."
Four days notice? That doesn't give much organization time. How about something with at least a week or two lead time.
You can read my summary of what happened at the meeting http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nance-meeting-1-14-2014-a-5.html#post11893635
Alt234, a vendor who attended, got banned for ECF for saying he was a vendor in the forum space.​

That was the kind of posting on ECF which got me banned Mr. Barnett and Nachtnoir, since you think the ECF ban should be a current shame on me.

So you see, I have been defending myself from shit attacks before Vaping Militia existed. I was banned for it. Banned for pointing to the local issues over and above the FDA, because the FDA has NJOY after their their butts, after winning in Sottera.

So you can imagine my displeasure with Nachtnoirs opening salvo, and then him using information from the hackers of FTV. FTV which was not supported by CASAA and nothing about FTV on Vaping Militia site, no calls to action for freetovape.....none that I saw.

So that brings it all down to you slams on me. I have not accused Vaping Militia of shit. I told them the name is shit, and why. I told them their imagery was shit, and why. I was told it was phoneix, that's line is shit. So I have to back my shit up, and then I find all these images of THAT eagle, so I think "well fucking shit" what is Vaping Militia going to saw, when they could have just used a Bald Eagle.
Nachtnoir, nothing but bland no response, he must not know shit. So I ask Joe Barnett, he simply refused to explain the choice of the Eagle. What a load of shit. He is only too happy to talk shit about me, but when I call him on his shit, shit he won't say. So I have to look more shit up. Not want to. I have to. Oh look the earlier symbol used is another one used by Germans, oh fucking shit.

So with all this Shit, I have asked Joe Barnett, two groups of question, on WHY the totenkopf Skull, and Why the gun target sight, pretty fucking sure that is not standard Colonial militia issue. And why they specifically chose the German Coat of Arms. A symbol that is NOT AMERICAN, last I checked my Eagle was Bald, and Baldie kicked the German's ass, our USA Eagle saved all of Europe. I am not accusing Vaping Milita of shit. I said clearly and obviously that I think that the Vaping Militia used THAT eagle, out of pure ignorance of history. I think they used gun snipper targets and a death skull for.....no wait.....I have not fucking clue to why you used the Skull, WHICH IS WHY I ASKED, and am waiting for the answer. But after there shit of a marketing stunt on the back of calling me a lair etc, I am sure as shit going to get Joe Barnett to answer. I believe after the attack on me, I am due it. Sure as shit. None of this baby shit, of oooooooh you bring this up because you are calling us a name. Have not. Won't. If I slipped up, I don't think I have, but I will defend my shit, and give an earnest apology if I screwed my shit up.

Joe Barnett can explain, the questions have been out to him for days.

If you hear this song blaring out loudly, You will know its me.

 

[hitman4274]

History class has failed a lot of you.. the United States were built by militias fighting for our freedoms.. the second ammendment is in fact making sure these militias always have a right to arms... Why do you think they added this little tid bit of information in there... because they handled business and got stuff done.. so don't be so judgmental people... know your history.. Militia isn't a bad word nor looked down upon except by people like you... change the way you think..

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tombaker]

History class has failed a lot of you.. the United States were built by militias fighting for our freedoms.. the second ammendment is in fact making sure these militias always have a right to arms... Why do you think they added this little rid bit of information in there... because they handled business and got stuff done.. so don't be so judgmental people... know your history.. Militia isn't a bad word nor looked down upon except by people like you... change the way you think..

Militias didn't feature Skulls, or German Coat of Arms of the German Government supporting the English, and a large 30K set of German mercenary, that was called out, in part, within the Declaration of Independence. Vaping need not be associated with the 2nd Amendment. Why would it. The PTA president in charge of the City Council does not need to see that stuff or hear it. Nachtnoir said the Militia will never disclose itself in public forums, I ask why that would be, he did not respond. Just that the T-Shirts were not suitable for City Council meetings. Am I stupid to think that Advocay needs to be in public, in the light.

Tons of people have repeatedly raised concern about the Militia name, on this thread, and in Interviews done by Joe Barnett. He knows the problems.

you end with "change the way you think" sorry but that is pretty much a waste of time, why spend ANY time attempting (and failing) to get them to change there pre-established connotations of the meaning of Militia, or those using that banner in the 21st century. Its a distraction and a net negaive. It will never be a net positive, NEVER. Waste of time, liability, sends the wrong message.

Vaping is the future, its better than smoking, its life saving to some, its not Skull, or a coat of Arms, that was most recently used by an army that attempted to take over the world. If I was the only person thinking the name is a pure marketing blunder that will be a burden to Vapers, and an anchor to Vaping Militia....well then.....oh never mind, I am NOT the only person.

And really why the death skull?

 

[RynoSerious]

@tombaker says "Vaping is the future, its better than smoking, its life saving to some, its not Skull, or a coat of Arms, that was most recently used by an army that attempted to take over the world. If I was the only person thinking the name is a pure marketing blunder that will be a burden to Vapers, and an anchor to Vaping Militia....well then.....oh never mind, I am NOT the only person. "



Says who? Its not YOUR branding.. You have no input on what it is or is not.. What you do have is the right to share your opinion, which you have.. You related the symbols to nazi germany, you were corrected.. You mention it as being used by an army that tried to take over the world.. Again YOUR WRONG... Now you assume the skull means " death", SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE DECENDING INTO WHAT I CALL THE STRAW MAN ZONE..

i happen to think its a popculture marketing move, but thats MY opinion..

Your point of it " not being a phoenix" and making blind accusations on a projected opinion (your own) is mute.

You questioned the intention of the logos, and you Received your answer. If you feel that the answer was insufficient.
Sounds like you really dont have any choice, but to accept it for exactly what it is.. And that my friend, is NOT YOURS.


I think the logo is inspiring, and really looks awesome..

#tagsup

 

[BuckToothZombie]

People need to stop being little Nancies and so damn PC correct.. People have no clue how the media as turned everyone into little delicate flowers..
Militia is what America was founded on...
Let's me guess most of you don't watch football because of the RedSkins lol.....
I miss the days when men were men and the women were damn proud of them!!!

 

[tombaker]

[QUOTE="RynoSerious,

Says who? Its not YOUR branding.. You have no input on what it is or is not.. What you do have is the right to share your opinion, which you have.. You related the symbols to nazi germany, you were corrected.. You mention it as being used by an army that tried to take over the world.. Again YOUR WRONG... Now you assume the skull means " death", SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE DECENDING INTO WHAT I CALL THE STRAW MAN ZONE..
​

The skull is known as a death skull, dead man's skull, or and many other form of Death. I asked Joe Barrett for why they are using it, why they are using the gun sight. He has NOT responded. The army that used it, was the SS. On their hat's, on their collars. How was that wrong? Unfortuantely for me, when I found that image without the jaw, and I looked, I found the link. Regardless I have said I think Joe's understanding of modern history to be simply ignorant of many items. So I am left with asking him why the Vaping Militia is using a Skull and a gun sight, on their Branding. When he replies, then I will know. Right now, using a Skull like that, is not going to play well. And certainly enough others have told Joe the same.

i happen to think its a popculture marketing move, but thats MY opinion.. ​

Pop culture of what?

Your point of it " not being a phoenix" and making blind accusations on a projected opinion (your own) is mute.
​

Its not a phoenix, you can look at the clip art they purchased, its a Called a Coat of Arms, its a Heardic one, its the German one, its the one used in the images I have given. http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-710...rms-emblem.html?src=pp-same_artist-74123845-3 Why did they use the German Coat of Arms? You got the link, that's the one. Let Joe Barnett answer, he is not one to run away.

You questioned the intention of the logos, and you Received your answer. If you feel that the answer was insufficient.
Sounds like you really dont have any choice, but to accept it for exactly what it is.. And that my friend, is NOT YOURS.
​

Still have not got the intention or the idea behind the symbols, I asked a set of questions, they have yet to be responded to. Hey they used me for marketing purposes, they can explain that marketing. Joe Barnett I expect will answer the questions.

I think the logo is inspiring, and really looks awesome..
​

What are they inspiring of? Lots of people use Eagles for inspiration, we have plenty of wonderful American Bald Eagles. Other than the German one used.

Joe Barnett has been asked by others in Interviews about the source and reason for the Militia name, and told in interviews that people were concerned about the naming of Militia. And I frankly earnestly don't get the point of using a Skull and a Germanic Eagle for logos. Why? Its a marketing error.

I have responded with care, and I simply think Joe can speak for his group, and I expect he can easily do so. I was forced here, but I will stand here also. I wrote out all the question I have. Why not wait for the answers also. If I should not even ask why, and you can not simply answer what the symbols should convey, why on earth did the 11 Vaping Militia members come onto this thread.

 

[tombaker]

You know TomBaker, I will respond. This will be the last time. Take it for what it is. I posted in response to you on a Facebook thread about two weeks ago and asked you a question for a source. You repeatedly have stated that the FDA has said that they will not regulate hardware. I asked you for a source. You never answered. So in my mind and everyone else's mind that is either a lie, or a fabrication.

"Nacht NoirTom Baker Can you please find me the link to the info regarding a FDA comment that they CAN NOT regulate hardware? I simply have not heard or read that comment from any FDA source."

Tom Baker
"5. You know that no hardware without Nicotine is able to be regulated by the FDA, per the FDA. So how do you think that there are 100,000 products."
from a post you wrote on the WeAreCASAA Facebook

"Alex Clark... the Tobacco Control Act, defines the term "tobacco product" to mean "any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, INCLUDING ANY COMPONENT, PART, OR ACCESSORY OF A TOBACCO PRODUCT (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."1 Products that meet the statutory definition of "tobacco products" can include currently marketed products such as certain dissolvables, gels, hookah tobacco, ELECTRONIC CIGARETTES, cigars, and pipe tobacco. Components and parts of tobacco products, but not their related accessories, would also be included in the scope of this proposed rule. COMPONENTS AND PARTS ARE INCLUDED AS PART OF A FINISHED TOBACCO PRODUCT OR INTENDED FOR CONSUMER USE IN THE CONSUMPTION OF A TOBACCO PRODUCT. Components and parts that would be covered under this proposal include those items sold separately or as part of kits sold or distributed for consumer use or further manufacturing or included as part of a finished tobacco product. Such examples would include air/smoke filters, tubes, papers, pouches, or flavorings used for any of the proposed deemed tobacco products (such as flavored hookah charcoals and hookah flavor enhancers) or cartridges for e-cigarettes." (“Summary of the Major Provisions of the Regulatory Action “,p. 7 - of whatever copy I have)"

Mitch Zeller even stated in the conference call the day after the regs were released that hardware would be considered a tobacco product as it is a nicotine delivery device. That any part of the hardware that would comprise the final product would be considered a tobacco product. When asked a question by and I am very sure it was Greg Conley that asked that question he stated it.

Zeller's response starts at 14:53. Under these deeming regs any hardware used as part of a completed nicotine product would fall under statutory definition of a "Tobacco Product".

When clearly they are funding research in hardware and how vapers modify it
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/insight/2014/07/13/where-theres-smoke.html

When your comment is addressed and text was quoted directly from the proposed deeming regs, you belittle and attack implying that the person reading those regs don't read it the same way as you.

When you are given clear "King's English", you divert or insult with language that belittles the poster. So if you are gonna state something as fact. You should give the source. The FDA has released no concrete application process, nor have they stated what pathway will be present once these proposed regs are finalized. There is a concensus in the industry that there will be a process similar to what the FDA does with other non-drug product approvals. Why is it that you think you know better than everyone else?

This is a sample of one of those replies where you belittle and attack.
"Tom BakerCarl Phillips, I am telling you that you have bad data, bad conclusions, and knowingly presenting a false narrative. I am informing you that you are wrong, and doing it specifically to which items. Whoop, insult, and holler, but you ignoring responding each time. I have put out clearly where you are wrong, your work, wrong. I laid out the points. Why crumble when your work is reviewed? Your math is wrong, and the FDA found that, you have completely missed see the criteria for public health benefit inside the deeming. Unlike Glantz's theory dual usage is a net positive. You know or should know that getting approval is not going to be 10 Million dollars for each item, will you acknowledge you know better? You know your claims that only Cartomizers (ie Cigalikes) will exist after the Deeming, is wrong, and that E-Liquids will be approved just like any product. All Vaping, includes E-Liquid. So why act as if raw E-Liquid approval is different. Carl, have the intellectual honesty to respond with substance. Are you able?"

Do you think there is a reason that you were banned from ECF? Other than the one you have created in your mind? It seems like there are many members here that know your hijinx and history. I found someone who even wrote a little blog with audio clips and tried to point them out to you in the past. I will post the link to that here too.

http://www.stefandidak.com/2014/06/sorry-tom-baker-youre-just-not-important-enough/

Maybe this thread did go a little off topic. But I think I will end it now. You can be upset that I called you a Liar and that you Misdirect/Misrepresent/Fabricate. I think I have seen enough of it and posted a few examples of it here. I am OK with you not liking the Militia name and am fine with you not joining. We are big fans of personal freedom. I do hope that other people can get past the name see the work that we do and find something other than their dislike of the name to join. As for your statement that the biggest presence of the Militia on Facebook being the Call-Outs group. That is indeed not correct. We have over 4600 members on our Facebook. The Call-Outs group only has 96.

I do apologize for one thing, I didn't find the post about Greg Conley, so substitute Carl Phillips there instead. I think referring to CASAA as "Astroturf" will prove an example of attacking them.

Forgive my not addressing all of your numbered issues. This should be enough of a response.

While I wait for Joe Barnett to stand up, and respond to the 2 groups of questions on what the images are supposed to convey. I just want to respond with more detail back to you nachtnoir. Again gave feedback on this thread on why the name Militia is not a great name for usage at the target audiences. You come back with complaining I wrote to Carl Phillips. Instead of looking at what I was saying, looking to gain whatever advantage you can from the information, you all chose to call me a liar, to build up your membership. Perhaps you can work with people that are not so keen on your name (If you don't change it, you should definately get used to it, from "not me" others)

Here is what I wrote to Carl Philips that got him to go off and insult me, complain, get the thread closed on CASAA. Now to be fair, he clearly said he wanted nobody to listen to me at all, and it was just that the Vaping Militia took it as gospel.

I think the information can be of use to Vaping Militia. I am certainly going to back it up, if quizzed. These items are factual, not an attack.

Things like the criteria for public health benefit being defined, in the Deeming, might be something that The Vaping Militia can use...... unless you are only going to source information from Carl Philips.

Posted to Philips on CASAA Facebook.

1. I previously explained and showed you within the Deeming Documents, the criteria of Public Health Benefit, as being defined by the FDA, did you look that up yet? Its there.

2. Carl the calculations that you are using to say “FDA is planning to ban 99.9% of the products on the market” The way you derived that number is by taking 80 applications divided it by the number of products you think the FDA is considering. You say that is 100,000, so you have 99.9. But the FDA says their numbers are based on less than 1700 products, so you know your math and claims are wrong. Plus the FDA says it does not well understand the current market.

3. Carl you say that the FDA is going to ban everything except Cig-A-Likes which currently dominate the E-Cig market. But you know that NJOY, BLU, and V2, Mistic and others all have Liquid Refillable products currently being sold. So why on earth do you claim that E-Liquids won’t be approved, and that these large companies won’t get them approved? If one E-Liquid is approved, the rest will be coming in via the Path that that First approval creates. The only the Cig-Alikes angle being pitched is not the most likely.

4. When I point out to you that Bill Godshall present to the FDA that Chewing Tobacco is the cause of 7.5% of the mouth cancers, you simply did not want to address his testimony and went straight for the HPV angle. So the simple question is do you think that Straight non-SNUS type chewing Tobacco causes Mouth Cancer. You previously indicated it was so trivial it was equivalent not any more cancerous than not using it. In other words you indicated you did not think Chew was cancerous.

5. You know that no hardware without Nicotine is able to be regulated by the FDA, per the FDA. So how do you think that there are 100,000 products?

6. Do you still think that each application, each flavor, is going to be like a new drug approval, requiring 10 Million dollars?​

 

[Joe Barnett]

Tom I have answered marketing nothing more. I don't have any further explanation.

 

[hitman4274]

While I wait for Joe Barnett to stand up, and respond to the 2 groups of questions on what the images are supposed to convey. I just want to respond with more detail back to you nachtnoir. Again gave feedback on this thread on why the name Militia is not a great name for usage at the target audiences. You come back with complaining I wrote to Carl Phillips. Instead of looking at what I was saying, looking to gain whatever advantage you can from the information, you all chose to call me a liar, to build up your membership. Perhaps you can work with people that are not so keen on your name (If you don't change it, you should definately get used to it, from "not me" others)

Here is what I wrote to Carl Philips that got him to go off and insult me, complain, get the thread closed on CASAA. Now to be fair, he clearly said he wanted nobody to listen to me at all, and it was just that the Vaping Militia took it as gospel.

I think the information can be of use to Vaping Militia. I am certainly going to back it up, if quizzed. These items are factual, not an attack.

Things like the criteria for public health benefit being defined, in the Deeming, might be something that The Vaping Militia can use...... unless you are only going to source information from Carl Philips.

Posted to Philips on CASAA Facebook.

1. I previously explained and showed you within the Deeming Documents, the criteria of Public Health Benefit, as being defined by the FDA, did you look that up yet? Its there.

2. Carl the calculations that you are using to say “FDA is planning to ban 99.9% of the products on the market” The way you derived that number is by taking 80 applications divided it by the number of products you think the FDA is considering. You say that is 100,000, so you have 99.9. But the FDA says their numbers are based on less than 1700 products, so you know your math and claims are wrong. Plus the FDA says it does not well understand the current market.

3. Carl you say that the FDA is going to ban everything except Cig-A-Likes which currently dominate the E-Cig market. But you know that NJOY, BLU, and V2, Mistic and others all have Liquid Refillable products currently being sold. So why on earth do you claim that E-Liquids won’t be approved, and that these large companies won’t get them approved? If one E-Liquid is approved, the rest will be coming in via the Path that that First approval creates. The only the Cig-Alikes angle being pitched is not the most likely.

4. When I point out to you that Bill Godshall present to the FDA that Chewing Tobacco is the cause of 7.5% of the mouth cancers, you simply did not want to address his testimony and went straight for the HPV angle. So the simple question is do you think that Straight non-SNUS type chewing Tobacco causes Mouth Cancer. You previously indicated it was so trivial it was equivalent not any more cancerous than not using it. In other words you indicated you did not think Chew was cancerous.

5. You know that no hardware without Nicotine is able to be regulated by the FDA, per the FDA. So how do you think that there are 100,000 products?

6. Do you still think that each application, each flavor, is going to be like a new drug approval, requiring 10 Million dollars?​

Well we see google is your friend Mr. tombaker.. I think you have way to much time on your hands buddy... Simply put..
Why get involved with the Vaping Militia if you don't agree with the way they run stuff.. t I attached a picture for you... thats vaping and 2nd amendment mingling together just for you.. well not really i used google.. your not the only one with google..
Some history on USA Militias for you... colonial militias were drawn from the body of adult male citizens of a community, town, or local region... colonial militias served a vital role in LOCAL conflicts(key word local).. they were also only used to meet a threat( e-cig bans)... In its original sense, militia meant "the state, quality, condition, or activity of being a fighter or warrior." I would like to think we are all warriors against the vaping bans...

so in case you missed it... militia is the perfect term for the Vaping Militia who wants to focus on the local battles to fight the bans etc etc... If you dont agree with that you dont have to be involved with them... Where is your advocacy group for defending the rights of vaping?

And I'm not calling you a liar...maybe they picked those images because they look awesome...
Totenkopf is the german word used for skull and cross bones... many will generalize it with the Nazi's however.. The United States Marine Corps Reconnaissance Battalions use the skull and crossbones symbol in their emblem... So are you sending your concerns to them as well? Plenty of other military groups use skull and cross bones all over the place.. goes back to the soldier state of mind.. that dang history teacher I'll tell ya...

In more important news... while the vaping community is sitting over here arguing about words.. how about we stand together and go after the big issues.. I don't know... ohhh I got one.. like the regulations that are coming.. I mean today is the last day to comment on them...

 

[Wolftek]

Have you ever met someone who you considered to be a good leader? Communications theorist Simon Sinek explains the characteristics that all good leaders have in relation to how they inspire, motivate, and build trust with the people they manage. TED here

I think this has relevance here in the community and should be considered. Here

Give it a view, reflect, discuses, adjust, and Act! For what it is worth.

Hmmm… Build it (right) and they will come?

 

[Myk]

Hmm, lithium battery, battery tube. I bet I could mod my laser sight to be an ecig so I wouldn't have to take a break from shooting to vape or from vaping to shoot.

 

[Celtic Fog]

Perhaps The Rainbow Patrol would be better
Unicorn Squad?
Faerie Troopers?
Lollipop Legionnaires?
The Gnome Rangers?
Gumdrop Guerrillas?
The Squicky Dolphinlove Resistance?

I dunno. Just something friendlier, and less freaky-scary or paranoia-inducing. Anything. "Militia" to me sounds like the Heavily Armed Tin Foil Hat Brigade.

this is bullshit....Ive already registered the name Lollipop Legionnaires.....hehehehehe. I agree that the timing of their naming might be a little off...you click their link, and you become a target of the NSA/DHS/CIA/FBI/ATF/FOX/CNN/?....

 

[chickenmonkey]

This is what the general public associates with the word Militia, unfortunately in this day and age it has negative connotation:

https://news.vice.com/article/shiit...e-islamic-state-are-suffering-from-low-morale
http://www.stripes.com/news/possibl...-have-spurred-us-action-analysts-say-1.297375
http://rt.com/news/179212-ukraine-militia-ready-ceasefire/
http://news.yahoo.com/militia-fighters-clash-bangui-thousands-march-peace-183637463.html
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/brazilian-police-dismantle-militia-group-rio-24889812
Just a quick Google search of todays news.

 

[chickenmonkey]

Ok I have joined the vaping militias Facebook page. I agree with what they are trying to accomplish. Vapers need all the help we can get. We need our voices heard. Shame about the name, I am trying to get past it.

 

[chickenmonkey]

I have also joined The Vaping Militia as a General Member. So I guess this thread was good for something! Tee Hee

 

[tombaker]

Tom I have answered marketing nothing more. I don't have any further explanation.

I hope from what I have had to post in my defense here you understand that I don't lie, and I do my own work. If I am wrong, its because of mistake. I tend to post my sources because and where I get my info. I say this because some of the numbers I ran doing searches on Regulations.gov, I think your team used, and was happy to see. Also on what nachtnoir thought I was messing with Carl Phillips on, ie the inability of the FDA being able to regulation hardware without nicotine. Nachtnoir wanted information from me on why I thought it, which I have an entire thread on, but I don't think he was on this Forum at that time. Well as it turns out, the official position of CASAA for all its members, is stating that the current status quo is the FDA can not regulate Hardware. (Similar reasoning, some different, but end result the same) It was a surprise to me and I am going to bet Nachtnoir. That is for a different thread, I will start.

So the critical question that always needs to be asked
"So What?"
Neither you should need to defend yourself nor I. If I don't like the name, ti should not trigger a defense. I believe we are both well intentioned, and pro vapers. My most controversial subject has been the local and State fights are where the action is going to be, and you guys are attacking that problem. I recognized the eagle from history, and I am not a fan of Skull imagery either. I can ask you what the intended purpose of those images and the name militia have on your audience, or people first encountering you. If you don't want to put it down, fine take it as rhetorical at this point. (if you want to see another branding issue.... search in Google: boy, london, symbol, then on Google click images.......... entirely different, intentions. I think VM is simply error, nothing else.

But I have listen to VM interviewed by at least 3 hosts that do not like the name. And this last week a host who was apprehensive about the name, but was OK with it after she talked it out. My point is the name won't carry with some, and others will needed education on the name, which out it the field at City Council or State body, there will never be time for explaining.

So here is my best advice after thinking about it.
VM is very young, and can withstand a re-branding, without even loosing a half step.
The advantage of the name change is how it plays with the audience, not so much its members.
I was thinking of Vaping Activists, as it is what you do.
But then why not convey Militia a more palatable word without controversy. Like a big Team.

So that would be Vaping Activists Team. VAT.

Then I blew my own mind, an epiphany. VTA
Vape Team Activists. Its perfect. ​

There is a Vape Team, it has various sections, it could then have an Activists Section if nothing else in Name only, but I would think likely, in join effort too.

Vape Team: Activists. VTA. A great name, a great brand, and everyone can be proud of it.
Solution Plotted, you can decide to fire or not.

I think is a win all the way around. (Note: Of course, I did NOT, talk to anyone from Vape Team before posting this)

YMMV, its just IMO,
except objectively speaking, VTA is perfect.

 

[Myk]

Vape Team sounds too much like sports. I hate being in team sports, they're better to watch from the stands.
"Activist" groups like PETA hide terrorist groups like ALF, or like Occupy have a hidden agenda funded by people out for the opposite of what the group claims.
I guess you go with the name you can live with.

 

[tombaker]

Vape Team sounds too much like sports. I hate being in team sports, they're better to watch from the stands.
"Activist" groups like PETA hide terrorist groups like ALF, or like Occupy have a hidden agenda funded by people out for the opposite of what the group claims.
I guess you go with the name you can live with.

Myk, You are watching sports from the stands. VM are players on the field. Activists is how VM self-describes, which you should know.

And the pace of local bans is accelerating, as cities copy-cat each other. The VM are focusing on the areas, that I think the battle is being lost RIGHT NOW. So I think their focus is correct, and they are still defining how to go best about it.

I would like to see the VM become Vape Team Activists, because folding into the name of the Vape Team, is a force multiplier.
Vape Team Activists will market well, and you don’t need to educate people on “militia”, and you don't have to endure the liability of people, that will never change their view.

I would like to see VM have a more public face, rather than simply a support for others. I think Vape Team Activists positions them well. Or another name without Militia in it.

In December 2013, I create a thread with 8600 views in just 2 weeks of being allowed by ECF to stay open saying:

The real problem is with Cities like New York creating regulations on how E-Cigs can be used in public. Bans on usage are the laws that will be hard to fight, and hard to overturn, because they will go into effect before they can be overturned.​

Just as true today

 

[Chowder]

VAPE TEAM ACTIVIST? Sorry man, but that is just as bad as you claim VM is now. It instantly garnered the idea of hippies spiking trees. I understand you don't like the name. That's ok. You have that right. However, that doesn't change their right to call themselves what ever they want. Even though you might have the best of intentions, at this point it's a dead horse. Continuing to beat it as you are, will be more detrimental to your argument than simply stating your case and letting people decide for themselves. Of course you have the right to continue, but IMHO, you run the chance of losing the ear of your audience.

 

[tombaker]

VAPE TEAM ACTIVIST? Sorry man, but that is just as bad as you claim VM is now. It instantly garnered the idea of hippies spiking trees. I understand you don't like the name. That's ok. You have that right. However, that doesn't change their right to call themselves what ever they want. Even though you might have the best of intentions, at this point it's a dead horse. Continuing to beat it as you are, will be more detrimental to your argument than simply stating your case and letting people decide for themselves. Of course you have the right to continue, but IMHO, you run the chance of losing the ear of your audience.

Chowder, I do understand the importance of why VM self-describes as "activists", not advocacy. One is conversation, while the other is actively engaging at all the localities. One is science, the other is the engineer actually making it work.

Myk has his axe to grind, after he started his thread on CASAA solely to go after me. He is still trying to prove me wrong, thread after thread.

As I said above, much earlier, I have no reason to believe that I could be more effective or have more affect than 500 VM active members, and 5000 VM reservists on Facebook. But I do scout, and always seek to cover the areas not being covered. I was called a liar, so I beat that horse, came back and beat it some more.

So Chowder, with all that, I am done posting on this thread,
as you suggest would be wise....
but I will read what else is written.

 

[Roger Schaeffer]

do not change Horses in The middle of a Raging Current

 

[Myk]

Myk has his axe to grind, after he started his thread on CASAA solely to go after me. He is still trying to prove me wrong, thread after thread.

Actually I thought you were blocked and I didn't mention you on purpose. I made that post to correct the astroturf lie you kept on telling in spite of being corrected on it multiple times. The post was for others who might believe your lies.

 

[Warhawk-AVG]

 

[antiantihero]

I really hope nachtnoir is the guy that handles PR. He is the only one who responded intelligently and respectfully instead of snide comments or name calling from what i saw.

 

[Browncoat]

I can't believe this thread is 4 pages deep. The explanation is simple:

Vaping Militia is nothing more than a brand. They are not a non-profit advocacy group, they are a for-profit company. This is why they have been very careful to label themselves as "activists" instead of "advocates". The connotation is slight, but it's there nonetheless.

The Vaping Militia brand stirs up feelings of rebellion, or standing up against The Man. It's marketing gimmick that plays into their militant merchandise, right down to the dog tags. Just like @antiantihero 's avatar, they could've just as easily had a Guy Fawkes mask for a logo. It's a lot easier to sell t-shirts and wristbands that feature Vaping Militia than a boring jumble of letters like AMRSPTBBQ.

Besides, forming a 501(c) is serious business. It's much easier to just ride the coattails of the CASAA.

 

[DarthVaper419]

1. People are too pc and sensitive
2. If you dislike the name, simply don't associate or advocate this particular group
3. If you have an issue with this particular name, it's most likely because of the militant connotation. if governments can arm themselves and have organized forces who are armed and prepared to act then private citizens damn well better have the same right, or else it's a one way road that history proves typically does not end well for the private citizens. I know this last one is drastic, but I felt I should address the root of the concern most people have with this groups name.

 

[pdxjlb]

Has anyone else not gotten their "dog tags" promised with "membership"? I've sent the VM three contacts through my personal profile. No response. Signed up in Dec. last year. Erh. Just wondering. Maybe they stopped "offering" them.

Regardless,
VapeOn

 

[cherrycakes]

Actually, aren't phoenixes usually on fire, or coming out of fire, or flying out of a pile of ash, or in some other way signifying their uniquely phoenix-like phoenicity?

Phoenicity. Is that a real word? Lol

 

[John Q Public]

Consider that the book cover is being judged is my the non-vaping public.
If people IN the vaping community are automatically conjuring negative connotations as we see here, how do you think that asshole John. Q. Public sees it? I'd think you'd wanna do everything in your power to not freak out "the public" in the slightest, no?

My non-smoking/non-vaping friends are already a touch freaked out over my newly found love of vaping... I sure ain't joining a "militia" on top of that, they'd file a 5150.

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