Throat and Lung Hit

Discussion in 'Forum Topic/section requests' started by Lmatthews123, May 14, 2019.

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  1. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    Hello all,

    Hello all I am new to this forum and excited to be here. We have a new product that is made from synthetic nicotine and uses only trace amounts of nicotine. We believe it will evolve the market as possibly won't be taxed or require an FDA pmta. We are having issues getting a viable throat and lung hit and are looking for help in working with our new liquid.

    We feel this is a very important product for the industry and would quite enjoy working with those here to further develop. Thank you for your time!

    Lisa
     
  2. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    Hello all,

    Hello all I am new to this forum and excited to be here. We have a new product that is made from synthetic nicotine and uses only trace amounts of nicotine. We believe it will evolve the market as possibly won't be taxed or require an FDA pmta. We are having issues getting a viable throat and lung hit and are looking for help in working with our new liquid.

    We feel this is a very important product for the industry and would quite enjoy working with those here to further develop. Thank you for your time!

    Lisa
     
  3. Theboss

    Theboss Silver Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Since the nic level in my juice is the determining factor in the throat hit, I'm not sure how you'd increase it in your formula.

    Welcome to the forum and good luck!
     
  4. PuffOn

    PuffOn Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    You better go back and read the FDA documents.
    They have synthetic nicotine covered.
    It will require a PMTA.
     
  5. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    Thank you for your input. When our liquid is tested the only thing that's detected is propylene glycol and flavors. Nicotine is not detected and it is not from a tobacco or tobacco by product.. it is working very well to satisfy smokers and Vapors. We would just like to increase the throat and lung hit and wondered if anybody knew how to do that without using free base or tfn?
     
  6. PuffOn

    PuffOn Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    If it's sold in a vape shop it will still be classified as a "tobacco" product.
    Just like a metal atomizer screw is classified as a "tobacco" product, if sold in a vape shop/online store.
    This applies to the US market only.

    Some flavorings can increase throat hit.
     
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  7. SteveS45

    SteveS45 Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Since the FDA Deemed coils and electronics in a vaping MOD a Tobacco Product you need top rethink your Business plan. Zero Nicotine is also Deemed a Tobacco Product. I am still waiting for the FDA to call me and explain how electronics components and metal are Tobacco Products~!
     
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  8. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    We and the industry have to either relitigate non tobacco based products not being covered tobacco products or further work with the FDA in creating new pathways for our industry to advance vaping technologies. We believe our non tobacco and non nicotine based liquids are one such product. They are testing effective just have to kick up the throat lung hit....
     
  9. SteveS45

    SteveS45 Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    When you get the FDA Fucking assholes to admit NDS or MOD's and Tanks or Coils arent't Tobacco Products I will stand with you and behind you and advocate like I do NOW>
     
  10. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    We did....Sottera v the FDA.....
     
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  11. SteveS45

    SteveS45 Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Post a link please.............
     
  12. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

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    I use salts to avoid th myself, might want to test both th formula and no th formula. Citric acid will add th and FA has a th flavor called Flash.
     
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  13. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

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    Please ask the mods to merge your two threads.
    Welcome to VU
     
  14. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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  15. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

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  16. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

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  17. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    "The court stated that products made or derived from tobacco can be regulated under the FD&C Act’s “tobacco product”

    The FDA agreed on appeal and stated they will not appeal to the Supreme Court. They were going to pull all e vapor products from the market as drug devices and we beat them. Without our litigation there would not be a vapor Market domestically. We also worked in the European Union with TPD 1 and 2. We are not corporations but family-owned companies that brought this action. We can do it again.
     
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  18. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

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    So your product will still be labeled as tobacco in the US.
     
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  19. NGAHaze

    NGAHaze Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    That decision back in 2010 did indeed save the vapor market at the time however it has not deterred the FDA from implementing new regulations it has since then 'deemed' that could potentially decimate the industry yet again. Personally I don't see how they can get away with classifying products that don't contain any tobacco as 'tobacco products' but, as has already been mentioned here, that is exactly what they have done and so far at least, nothing appears imminent that might alter that position ... sadly.
     
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  20. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    Thank you for your replies. Our products contain no tobacco or tobacco by products and our nicotine is re-engineered so not detectable at all. It is simply propylene glycol and flavor so it is not a covered tobacco product. Will they argue? Yes. Will California with their SB5 Stake Act say anything vaporized is a tobacco product? Yes. So we do what we did in 2008, 2009, 2010; bring products to market sell them quickly take reserves and litigate. Governmental Regulators can do whatever they want. We have shown that we are able to make an argument successfully.
     
  21. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

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    Your first post states "uses only trace amounts of nicotine" therefore in the US it is a tobacco product. I wish you success but fear your confidence is not warranted.
     
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  22. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Ahh but that was superceeded by the FDA Deeming Regulations.
    ANYTHIING used in ENDS/ecigs or intended for use in ecigs IS a tobacco product per the FDA deeming regs.
    8-8-2016.
    The Sotttera decision was dated 2010.

    Even PG is a tobacco product when used in or marketed for use in ecigs.
    Micotine free ejuice is now a tobacco product as well.
    The Mods/battery units are tobacco products.
    The atomizers, etc.

    Please study the FDA Deeming regs.

    even flavorings marketed for use in vaping are tobacco produsts under the Deeming regs.
    If marketed for another purpose they are not, such as food or beverage flavoring.
     
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  23. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    Juul is 50 mg/mL...Ours is .00000067 mg/mL. In 7 FDA registered lab tests our nic was undetecable and effective. We also have developed a closed system unit where the pod/cartridge is void of any heating hardware...simply e liquid in a biodegradable pod/cartridge. All heating elements are on the battery and last idefinately. You dispose and only pay for your liquid....not your heating element..
     
  24. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    We work with the FDA directly...more than I can post here. The FDA can regulate not legislate...
     
  25. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

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    So your product is going to be labeled as smoking cessation?
     
  26. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    Labeled only as an Alternative
     
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  27. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    The FDA can issue stop sell orders and issue fines in excess of 1 million dollars.
    It is all in the Deeming regs.
    And so far the deeming regs have withstood a court challenge or two.

    You will require a PMTA from the FDA before your vape product can be legally sold in the USA.
    Unless it was sold on the US market prior to 2007.


     
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  28. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

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    Alternative in US vernacular equals using oils or dry ****.:D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2019
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  29. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    And yes lots (90+%?) of vape products are currently being illegally sold in the USA.
    The FDA suspended enforcement of the Deeming regs for a couple of years.
    But they can enforce any time they want.

    Unless the deeming regs are eliminated or greatly changed vaping in the USA is running out of time.
     
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  30. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    Not necessarily. From the FDA:
    However, it’s possible that a disposable, closed system device that contains an e-liquid with truly zero nicotine (or synthetic nicotine) would not be regulated by the FDA as a tobacco product, if it is not intended or reasonably be expected to be used in such a fashion. FDA intends to make these determinations on a case-by-case basis, based on a totality of the circumstances
     
  31. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    True, that is what the PMTA process is about.
    And sealed closed systems are the ones most likely to be approved under the PMTA process.
     
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  32. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    for myself I have bought enough vape hardware to last the rest of my life and only use rebuildable atomizers and have been 100% DIY for my ejuice for 4 years. Have enough nic in the freezer for 30 years.

    Sealed closed systems are not attractive to virtually anyone on vape boards.
    But could prove a way to get off of smoking for many so I am not against them.

    I am however having trouble understanding how non detectable nicotine can help with nicotine addiction/habit.

    Sounds like you have a new drug which acts on the body like nicotine and will require FDA approval and testing as a drug ie NRT or smoking cessation drug like Chantix.

    I tried all the NRT's and cessation drugs on the market and nothing worked for me except vaping. 30+ yr 1.5 PAD smoker now 4+ years smoke free due to vaping.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  33. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    True...in process the FDA states in deeming only a closed system would be considered.. not coponents.
     
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  34. Lmatthews123

    Lmatthews123 New Member

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    Cromwell...great to know Vapers are out there like you that are quite aware
     
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  35. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    The vast majority of vapers in the USA are not aware of the coming end of legal open system vaping in the USA.
    Most vape shops do not educate users on it.
    And the majority of vapers in the USA do not frequent Vape boards.
    A high percentage of those on vape boards are pretty well aware of the Deeming regs and their implications for vaping.

    Sadly only the taxing of vape products by states may save some form of vaping in the USA as the rules now stand.
    States will raise a roar if their tax revenue is cut off.

    BTW several states and such are taxing and regulating ALL vape products (even no nic juice) as tobacco products. And that is legislated on state and municipal levels.
    Not just a regulation.
     
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  36. MrMeowgi

    MrMeowgi The Vapin' Drummer Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Merged for easier access
     
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  37. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I wondered where those new posts came from.
    LOL
    I was confused.
     
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  38. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    All for "advances" that might help. That doesn't stop one from being a bit apprehensive.

    Kind of figured, ...

    Sounds like Placebo 52.

    Nichrome 80 resistance wire also, though I'm sure there is some way to walk around it like the Brits calling aluminum, ... alu -- min -- um to duck past importing us aluminum.

    Probably happen just after that Lucifage Rochilclave bloke tells me "Yes, affirmative. Hell has frozen over." Or maybe it'll happen after Bush Jr. reveals in full public view the "iron clad evidence" allegedly held proving Bin Laden had Jack to do with Jack, much less that his own (Bush Jr's) shoes were tied. Possibly we'll get the last mystery ingredient from Pink Slime Formula 66 before then too.

    Meanwhile, ...
    Shave the modern way
    No brush
    No lather
    No rub-in
    Big tube 35 cents drug stores
    Burnrma-Shave!
     
  39. jojo5353

    jojo5353 New Member

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    more pg
     
  40. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Which will lead right back to big tobacco and we all know they'll play perfectly fair and transparent.

    Bottom line it's Whiskey Rebellion on repeat or the "same old song", you know it, "the rich get richer, poor get poorer".

    At the same time, been reading a bunch here and there, looking at some interesting videos. Kind of learning if you accept a paycheck that's on you. You could work for free just as easily, create investments such as property to provide housing, land for commercial / industrial zones to bring in work. Then you get passive income and if set up as a Limited S corporation you can pay taxes only on ROI profit, other profit gets set aside to not be taxed.

    Not quite the vitriol here once for the wealthy to have been had. Been seeing a different perspective & understanding it as well. Realizing I am at times taking a lazy path. Sorry if I have an open mind like that. As well as a mind that can hold two exclusive ideas together in it, and find common ground.

    I'm just too sane, probably. :)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  41. jojo5353

    jojo5353 New Member

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    increse the pg
     
  42. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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  43. ngstgl

    ngstgl New Member Unlisted Vendor

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    Vape doesn't just need Throat Hit, it also needs nicotine. If it doesn't contain nicotine, many smokers can't get satisfaction.
     
  44. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    For @ngstgl ,

    Psst, c'mere ... *tugging you aside gently* ...

    Your argument assumes, that the vaper in question is/was a smoker. They might not be/have been, ergo have no need of nicotine to be satisfied by vaping huge clouds, getting great flavor. I'm not trying to embarrass here, or humiliate. Simply addressing the argument, which is a bit off kilter.

    I think it was the assuming what stubbed its toe. All of us self inclusive have watch out for that guy, Assume, he's always stubbing his toe but good. Life happens, we strive doing better in the Now, tomorrow never arrives for when it does it's today, then yesterday we cannot change. Sometimes, its okay to stop and enjoy, ... Life, it's happening. :)

    For @whomitmayconcern @whoeverelsereadslookingforadvice,

    They might want to vape because 'all the cool kids are doing it". Which in and of itself is a silly reason.

    Simply because I go and leap off a 275 feet high bridge into 8 feet of water, doesn't mean everyone needs to do it to have fun. I'm not a "cool kid" either & that wasn't my intention in doing that. I had a moment of feeling like Mohamed when he was asked why climbed the mountain. "Because it was there," he replied.

    That doesn't make me cool. It makes me foolish, reckless and on some level a bit stupid. Why take such a risk knowing there is possibly great peril awaiting? The whole because it's there argument no longer holds water. Been there, done that, will save you the trouble, it's not fun. If I've not been there and done it, I know those who have and respect them telling me what I tell you, "its not fun."
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019 at 7:56 AM
  45. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

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    Most of the people who work at vape shops have no clue about the deeming regs.
    They barely know anything about what they are trying to sell you.:facepalm:

    I have a feeling that a vape shop chain store will pop up soon.
    There is already a few who have multiple locations.

    There are some very good vendors who are aware of whats going on.
    Most of those vendors are members of one of the trade organizations that are looking out for their interests.
     
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  46. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    No truer words...
     
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  47. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    I keep looking at the regs on various sites, government & otherwise. When exactly is this ending coming? I comprehend they want to take it all back to what is is it 2014? I'm not seeing any mention of when this happens unless its August 8th ... but what year? They did August 8th once and said they moved it, so? It is confusing reading and even more so confusing people writing it, to rely on for a straight answer.

    Also if the ending comes, does it mean I'll be fined if I publicly vape on a Coppervape? Does it mean I'm fined for just owning gear that wasn't around in 2014? Who is enforcing that? What happens if I'm too broke to pay? They raiding us? I mean it is all so damn stupid I'd not be surprised if they did raid people.


    Which in my mind just might be their first and last mistake. Resist, me? Oh no, I won't resist, nope no resisting an urge to paint the town red like that. Come at me, my family for your stupid shit, see how it goes. And by the by, folks here on VapingUnderground are family to me. Some I might not full on agree with, we tussle, family no less.

    *looks at line on ground, ensuring it's clearly visible*

    Case it weren't clear 'afore, I'd stand with the Hillbilly they bombed out on Blair Mountain. I would have been one of those suppressed during the Whiskey Rebellion. Yes, call me a rednecked Hillbilly and ignorant if you like. What goes to show truth to power and the people though, not ignorance but courage to let truth be seen. Big bad government, going to be led around by the nose by big business (capital) while you help slaughter your alleged flock.

    Not ignorant to find a "better way" to live and do as people wish, that harms no one else. Capital can't have that though, every crook needs a greased palm or two. So look at that line there. Believe that line makes me, ... American. That's the ideal y'all been so longing to know.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019 at 7:44 AM
  48. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

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    It was supposed to be sometime in 2022

    Companies weren't supposed to bring anything new to the market after 08/08/2016 but the FDA announcement didn't slow anything down.

    I doubt banning flavors would slow anything down.

    They'd just start selling Flavored Body Oil or some shit.

    Or it will be regular eliquid with a warning:

    Warning: Not for human consumption.
     
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  49. MrMeowgi

    MrMeowgi The Vapin' Drummer Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    No scares there. I've had tons of shit not for human consumption. Lmao
     
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  50. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    "2022", Thinking we're in that age now, still feels like I'm tripping on some real good stuff at times.

    The major companies were responding to demand by customers. They can do business anywhere else in the world. A lot of them based in China and can keep a large "home" market flooded too. Why would they slow product creation, new design, innovation down because the U.S. government pitches a hiss fit? At worse case, "Alright Mau, we need to switch from US truck to Russia truck all the US market orders," would be the extent of any trouble they faced. I'm sure Russia would not mind eating excess product. "We'll send them out to US via back channels, get more than cost, profit. Long live our syndicate, skaol!"


    Careful there. I'd hate to super glue your ass back on. :) Or would I? LOL

    I glowed for three nights in boot camp. The docs giving the vaccinations assured me I could take a full on nuclear blast and keep going at least twenty days (longer than normal) after the fact. Not too keen yet to try it out. I still have to wonder what shit was in the chocolate bears that one weird holiday back around 1978. It tasted yummy but I'm not sure I was supposed to eat it.
     
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