Discussion in 'Cloud Chasers Corner' started by twisted_transistor, Jul 15, 2014.
4.2v with a 0.06ohm load is 70A and 294w
no matter how you slice it, Math is Math. It is irresponsible at best, to go telling people whom you don't know to do X because Y has not happened to you.
here are the bench tests for the sony vtc4, One of the best batteries available to us, indeed. But, it is a 30a battery. Forcing it to more than double its output, is not what I would call safe.
its a nice way to become a statistic.
It's Called Science, Bro
Made an account just for this. Lol
So there is science in rating continuous discharge. AND you should stay within your continuous rating for a build you're carrying all day. What is "continuous discharge" though? It's a rating of how many amps a cell can give from 4.2v down to 2.5v, without stopping, full on the whole time. The cells are actually rated off nominal capacity as a result of this. So what is "burst" or "pulse" discharge? This is a manufacturer rating that applies only when the battery is completely full, it can deliver high current, usually in the neighborhood of double its continuous rating, for a short time.
So, why haven't these folks died, battery sag. Modern comp mods are essentially 0 resistance, but your battery is not. Mooch's database puts typical IR ~23 milliohm or 0.023 ohm. Going below that will cause your battery to discharge into itself and pop, but that is very very low. It does limit how much you can really get out of these cells though. 3.0 volts is likely the max any cell will deliver to these coils, as the cell itself cannot keep up.
Last part, most of these guys you're talking down to are using SS wire. That's also used for temp control. Do you know why? It rises in resistance when heating up. The mod detects the rise in resistance and using the TCR is has determines the temperature of the wire. On a mech it's not identical, but a 0.05 cold resistance could easily be over 0.10 ohm functional resistance, just with a pre-heat boost.
Sorry It's long, people trying to dogmatize science into their own agenda irks me. Science has no agenda, just information. If you were willing to learn, maybe you'd not be so hateful towards people who don't vape like you. Some of us can articulate why super sub ohming can be ok.
What kind of garbage human being advises a .06 or lower to someone?! That's super dangerous and you would feel horrible if this person took your advice and injured themselves. You should never build below a .08, and for cloud comps, typically the rules state that you have to build a .1 or higher.
0.5- 0.45 ohms on a dual series 18650 mod like the cricket(not the most reliable series mod though) will give you enough clouds without having to build so low on a parallel and put so much stress on the batts. (0.4 is fine if you have a well made high grade series box like the vcp pig and if you know what your doing.)
I am planning a dual 18650 parallel build on a Cherry Bomber as I get into cloud chasing. I will look at between .45-.55 ohm and see how that goes.
Thanks for the advice as I piggy back info off this thread.
Sent from my MX2020 Secure Satellite Uplink.
Actually I'd strongly advise you to do your research before you buy a cherry bomber as there have been many that had problems with it, and here is just a small example. Also i have seen other problems like auto firing, battery venting etc just to name a few. Anyway as long as you know what your doing you should be good
I have a cherry bomber, never had any problems with it. There are better options out there for the price though, imo.
In the comps i been in the tubes are the main event, some outlaw, but mostly tubes. In outlaw anything goes so you could get like a 4s pwm box and a 30mm mason or something and thatll do damage no matter how poor your technique is, which is why i dont really like outlaw.
Some tube comps will havr a min resistance of .1ohm some wont... ive even seen min resistance of .2..
Learning one coil option wont help, since some comps are more diverse.
I been using mad rabbit wire a lot lately, since its the only nichrome90 i know of. You need like 8 wraps of 21g on a 3mm of this stuff for a .08, rampup is almost non existant. I got a 7 wrap right now, clocks in at .07ohm. This is not even a comp build its my adv.
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
I have no desire to go quite that low. I will probably set my bottom end around .4 ohm. I use 25Rs and HG2s.
Sent from my MX2020 Secure Satellite Uplink.
On my Conspiracy RDA by Ohm Nation I run a 24 gauge 10 wrap kanthal microcoil, it's my all around good, simple set up. It hold up the the best of them. It's also all about the exhale, the exhale is what makes the cloud look good. In hale should be fast and sharp, slower for more density. And the hale should be fast, but at the end of you breath blow faster with your mouth slightly faster. It blows the first part Of your breath out further making the mass of the cloud larger.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
This is just a picture, but in real time it's different. Cloud extends out of frame and continues
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Soooo say i have a unregulated 2 battery box and 2 LG 18650's with 3.7V and a .02 ohm from 24g double twisted wire 5 wrap on both sides on a tfv8 baby beast.... That spells disaster doesn't it?
Offhand, Im going to say yes, for a few reasons.. correct me if I am wrong on any...
1) 0.02 ohm is pretty close to the internal resistance of your batteries, the closer you go to 0.00 ohm, the greater your risk.
2) You didn't mention which LG you are using, or the CDR. For each battery you need to know how it will handle stress. For example, on a single 25r (20A) I can build at UPTO a 56A draw for 2.5 seconds, with a 30 second rest. I could go as high as 70A but that is beyond my "ARE YOU CRAZY??" limit. LOL.. So you need to know how hot your cells get and how fast they reach 100C which is the standard DO NOT EXCEED temp.
3) This is strictly for cloud builds.. you would do better on an RDA such as a mutationX (I have V4) using dual parallel coils, no twists. (IOW 0 pitch) to maximize your surface area and reduce resistance. YOU should know what a safe resistance to build at is according to which batteries you use, how you vape (inhale/ exhale) and how much stress your batteries can handle. In other words, NEVER try this on a rebranded battery. Samsung, Sony, LG only. You need to TRUST what is UNDER the wrapper, not what the wrapper says.
Even better a quad coil build with a separate wick for each coil and re-juice every hit.
4th and most important, you need to know what your rig can do, not what I can do on mine. So although you can use my examples as examples, you can't use them as a how to post. It doesn't work that way. This is most important because it means you have to already know how to build coils and what is reasonably safe for your rig. I have been called an asshole for this reason.. I can't tell anyone what batteries they are using and the person using them has to know for themself what they can do. Me telling you would not do you (meaning the other person) any good, they need to know where to find the info and how to read it for EVERY battery they use.
I find a common misconception is that lower ohm = larger clouds. This is only true with mechanical mods, where you have to lower your ohms enough to reach the wattage needed to power your coil. On a regulated mod, you only have to get your resistance low enough to achieve max power output from your mods 2ndary controller. Example..
A) 200w mod. 0.60 ohm coil. Voltage= 4.2. Formula 4.2 times 2 cells = 8.4 then sqr that 70.56 watts / 0.60 resistance .. = 117 watts MAX.
B 200w mod, 0.30 ohm parallel coil (same number of "loops" as above... = 70.56 watts / 0.30 resistance = 235 watts (200w max)
In both A and B the coils have EXACTLY the same surface area and mass. The build changed the resistance which affected the max power available.
This is also important with mechanical mods, since you know to run that coil, you will need 235 watts and must build accordingly. Even if using 2 cells, that is still pretty high and well above your CDR.
Now as you see, there is a lot of math involved and a lot of info needed by the end user as to how their battery will handle the stress. That said, it sometimes makes us seem like AHoles when we have to tell people to do their homework, but it isn't us being mean, it is us teaching people how to find and use the information.
Now back to the original question.. there is no way in hell I would build a coil at 0.02 ohm. You MIGHT get away with it for a hit or 2 every couple minutes on a top grade battery (such as samsung 25r.. although I hear there are others now that are better) but I wouldn't take the chance. It isn't about how low you can build, it is about how well your build performs, how much lung capacity you have and how you exhale. All these are more important than low resistance. Which is why someone with a 0.08 ohm build will kick your butt in a competition using the build you described.
Haha no i understand and i know the limits on my own mods for both regulated and unregulated and mt 2500mAh 3.7v batteries and i just found it extremely amusing at how low i got it to go with the size of the coils, theyre as big as i could fit in the rebuildable tfv8 cloud beasts coil. Decided to google the lowest anyone does and read up and before i even thought about hitting it i realized it was a bomb
Old ass thread. Grand prizes at comps are always tubes. Outlaw comps are secondary al9ng with trick comps.
Tube is king.
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
I kind of figured you did, but didn't want to assume you did 100%.
I have a Temple 30mm RDA I am DYING to put a quad parallel build on, but my 200w box just wont push that much wire. Wouldnt even attempt it on a mech. I am figuring well above 300w prob closer to 340ish.
LOL I'm running a triple parallel single coil on my kanger toptank mini RBA... 7 wraps.. (so 21 loops of wire).. I have to run it over 70W. but for a single coil build.. it puts out an impressive plume.
edit.. make that 60 watts.. coil and wick is getting a bit older now, so less air coming through. lol.
The thread is on going as new gear and info becomes available. No need to have 30 separate threads for the same topic, right?
Fair enough. You have an interesting way to quote just little excerts from my posts.
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
I use 2.0 ohm coils... 4.5mm Kanthal....They cloud Chuck....
Reading this thread reminds me of what another member so eloquently stated in another thread..............
Pics or it didn't happen!
** Statement Not directed @cloudking666
Totally untrue and unsafe.
1 Factor is your mod. Single cell mod? HELL NO! It is about your coil build, atomizer, coils, lung capacity, mouth position and exhale. There is no reason to go below what you consider safe enough (in other words, you know the risks and studied the data sheets).
2 Series or parallel mod
In parallel, the resulting voltage is the equivalent to one of the batteries — in our example 3.7V. In a parallel circuit, current is split evenly between the two cells, effectively doubling the maximum CDR available to the coil and also doubling your battery capacity (run time) compared to a single battery. In our example, the max current available would be 40 amps, and the capacity 4000 mAh. (2x 18650 20A 2000Mah)
In a series configuration, the resulting voltage is additive — in our example 3.7V + 3.7V = 7.4V. The current in the circuit, however, is limited to the maximum CDR of a single battery or 20 amps since the same current is pulled through both batteries. Lastly, the life of our series configuration would also be the equivalent of a single battery or 2000 mAh
Simply put with a parallel mod you can build lower resistance so 0.6 would be ok however... in a series mod, you build larger coils at higher resistance with more voltage to power the coil. Cloud production is identical, since ohms law works the same in both cases.
So simply stating "you must build 0.06ohm or lower" is totally inaccurate and in the majority of cases, dangerous.
With regulated mods, Coil resistance had NOTHING to do with clouds. Strictly wattage. A 200w mod will power a huge dual parallel coil build, but must be higher than 0.1 ohm and lower (usually) than 3.0 ohm.
Mechanical mods don't have over current protection circuits. Personally, I'll stick to Moochs battery stress tests results for my build data. By the way.. who the hell pulls for 14 seconds? LOL.. We aren't talking about toodle puffers here. Draw on a cloud build is generally 3.5 seconds or less, and that includes a 1 second ramp up exhale. I think you better get your data sheets sorted. Batteries heat up fast when you pull 70-100A off a 20A,25,30A cell. The rate they heat up is different for each individual cell. Cheap cells will just go into thermal run and pop in your face. Samsung, Sony, LG tend to vent if they get to hot, but that is not to say that a mod with insufficient ventilation won't go boom, regardless of what batteries you use.
25Rs have been stress tested at 70A per cell for a 5 second fire, 30 second rest, for 6 firings. In a parallel build they would handle 80A easily, as long as the user knew all the information he needs to know to build at that level. (like how many seconds it takes to heat past 100C cell temp and how do dispose of a venting mod)
Now I am not saying it is ok to vape at 70A on a samsung 25r. It comes down to knowing how the cell will handle that draw and what to do in case of a hard short or venting situation. And 70A is by far less safe than sticking to within the cells CDR. What if your fire button sticks? at 70A the 25R WILL VENT.
This is exactly correct. If you don't have all of these factors fine tuned, lower resistance will do nothing except put you at greater risk levels. Kind of like buying a Formula 1 racer without knowing how to drive, will only make you go faster until you hit the wall at that first turn. You can do perfectly acceptable cloud builds between 0.12 ohm and 0.10 ohm and the risk is greatly reduced vs a 0.07 or lower build. Remember, the lower your resistance, the faster the electrons flow inside the battery and the faster the battery heats up. This is also why you only use Samsung, Sony, LG high drain batteries. You KNOW what the chemistry is from the stat sheets and tests. These manufactures publish on proper stats like CDR and not made up claims such as "pulse rating"
I would rather build a cloud build on a 20A Samsung 25R than any cell with a 45A pulse rating. See stress tests on the 25R for the "WHY". *lol.. i'm not going to do all the studying for you, nor will I mention the ohms and amps of some of my builds, (But they are all above 0.08ohm)*
You also need to consider coil material. Kanthal is higher resistance than Nichrome and both are higher than SS. So although you can get more wraps per ohm with SS but it also takes much higher watts and amps to heat. Also, remember there is such a thing as to many wraps, where the juice cant absorb into the wick faster than it is being vaped off from the center of your coil, resulting in a burned out wick. (like when you are changing wicks and it comes apart from the middle of your coil and will be dark brown)
and another noob heard from. How do I know you are a noob? Simple.. low ohm does not = bigger clouds. Sure, you might be vaping at 0.06 on 4 wraps... but WHY? Not for flavor.. you need clapton or alien etc coils for flavor builds.. and not for clouds... you need surface area for clouds. The reason we are giving shit about 0.06ohm build is because there is a much higher risk factor than building proper coils at higher resistance. Example.. my 20ga kanthal, 6 wrap on 2.5mm core is about 0.12 ohm but will out fog your 4 wrap SS build at a much less risky resistance. My next build will be dual parallel 24ga kanthal at 0.11 ohm.
In other words, since you don't know anything about wire types, coil builds, dual or quad coil builds, you probably should not be giving advice on what you have been getting lucky with. Although, Im guessing you are probably at least using a decent 30A battery, which allows lower cell temperatures, that does not mean you are getting any benefit from building at 0.06 ohm aside from being able to say..."I've been Vaping @ .06 on a Rig mod with a Roughneck atty".
Sorry.. your math isn't adding up. 0.06 ohm dual coil kanthal is less than 1 wrap per coil (2.5mm id)
* you will want to use clapton (simple) for taste. fused clapton or alien are even better*
By the way... we probably should have asked before this.. what Mod, atomizer, and batteries are you using? Single battery or more, and in series or parallel? Regulated mod or mechanical?