Another Battery Guide (Chargers, Battery Configurations, Battery Tables by Application/Use)

[IMFire3605]

(Ported, Updated, and Copied from my ECF Blog)
**Credit/Shoutout - @Mooch - Many of the Battery Tables by Mod Type/Configuration/Regulated/Unregulated/Mechanical/Wattage Breakdowns are based of his tests**
**Being Posted here until blogs are fully enabled here**
**Additions, Corections, Critique is all welcome, just post a reply below or PM me and I'll add/subtract/update/correct it and give credit back in this OP**

This is a mountain of text forewarning for anyone new getting into what they need to run safely as to also make more informed purchasing decisions of where they are or wish to be later down the road, no one has to read it in one read, its put here for leisure reading to allow it to sink in easier instead of all at once.

Battery Models by Usage Applications (This breakdown list is a lot of my own opinion based on all the information I have learned and collected and based on my own comfort level of safety)

Mech Mods (This includes single battery and dual battery box mods)
****In My Opinion, you are running a mech, you need a 30amp CDR battery at all times****
****Using Ohm's Law Forumla 4.2v/Resistance (ohms)=Amps , 30amp CDR battery single lowest safe resistance 0.28ohm (50% of max CDR of 15amps) maximum lowest resistance 0.14ohms (that's full 30amps). 25amp CDR single battery lowest safe resistance 0.34ohms (that's 12.5amps 50% of the total CDR) maximum lowest resistance 0.17ohm (that's full 25amps). 20amp CDR battery single lowest safe resistance 0.42ohms (that's 10amps 50% of the total CDR) maximum lowest resistance 0.21ohms (that's full 20amps). Parallel Dual Battery safest resistance with 30amp batteries is 0.14ohms (that's 30amps, 15amps per battery) maximum lowest that is advisable 0.10ohms (40amps CDR, 20amps per battery, this is pushing safety, suggest stay above 0.14ohms), Parallel Dual Battery safest resistance with 25amp batteries is 0.17ohms (25amps CDR, 12.5amps per battery), maximum lowest that is advisable 0.14ohm (30amps, 15amps per battery). Parallel Dual Battery safest resistance with 20amp batteries is 0.21ohm (20amps CDR, 10amps per battery), maximum lowest that is advisable is 0.17ohms (25amps CDR, 12.5amps per battery). Series Dual Battery safest resistance with 30amp batteries is 0.56ohms (thats 15amps both batteries must support as if a single battery), maximum lowest that is advisable 0.42ohms (that's 20amps CDR both batteries have to support as if a single battery 66% max capacity).****

LG HB2 - True 30amp CDR, 1500mah, powder blue in color. By specs these appear to be much like the HB6.
LG HB4 - True 30amp CDR, 1500mah, milk chocolate brown (old version), mustard yellow (new version). By specs these appear to be much like the HB6 and HB2
LG HB6 - True 30amp CDR, 1500mah, a cream white in color (old version), pink (new version), this is the coolest running battery on the market when under heavy load, making much safer than the VTC3 by far, get some of these you will really like them
Sony VTC3 - True 28amp CDR, 1600mah, a matte pine green color (Though Rated 30amps, independent test showed them to be max 28amps safely)
Sony VTC4 - This is a long time standing King and Jack of all trades, 20 to 25amp CDR battery capable of holding and sustaining, but not suggested to do so all the time 28amp CDR, 2100mah, a matte pine green color like the VTC3, try to stay below 25amps

****Ohm's Law Formulas Used For the Following Regulated Mods- Triple Battery Series (Watts/9.6volts/90% Mod Chipset Efficiency=Maximum Amps), Dual Battery Series (Watts/6.4volts/90% Mod Chipset Efficiency=Max Amps), Dual Battery Parallel (Watts/3.2volts/90%=Maximum Amps), Single Battery Mod (Watts/3.2volts/90% Mod Chipset Efficiency=Maximum Amps)****

150 watts to 200watts Dual Battery Series Regulated Mod
****In My Opinion, just like a mech of any sort, these guys need 30amp batteries at all times****
LG HB2
LG HB4
LG HB6
Sony VTC3 (note, being safely 28amps, max 180 watts)
Sony VTC4 (note, being safe but not advisable, max 170 to 180watts)

120watts to 160watts Dual Battery Mod(Sigelei 150watt, IPV3,etc)
****In My Opinion, these bad boys need at least 25amp CDR batteries if you are going to run at this level regularly****
LG HB2
LG HB4
LG HB6
LG HD2 (purple) - 25amp CDR, 2000mah / LG HD2C (salmon or skin color) 25amp CDR, 2200mah- these have been around a while, nice battery, rated 25amp CDR, personally I'd trust it at 20amps like most of LG's line excluding the HB Series
LG HD4 (salmon or skin pink) (no manufacturer specs at the moment), independent tested 25amp CDR, 2100mah. By Mooch (a professional battery tester) these batteries rated right in between the HD2 and HD2C for Mah, same CDR, but was stronger than the HD2 Series, haven't tried these myself, but those are strong results
Sony VTC3
Sony VTC4
Sony VTC5A - (matte pine green), 25amp CDR, 2500mah. Sony has come out swinging at LG with this re-vamp of the VTC5. Sacrificed 100mah and boosted the CDR by 5amps, this bad boy gives the LG HD Series some serious competition, another rock solid battery Sony adds into their line up of 5 models now.

75watts to 120watts Dual Battery Mod
AW IMR 18650 2200mah - 20amp CDR, re-wrap yes but AW is a longest time trusted battery out of all other brands on the market
AW IMR 18650 3000mah - 20amp CDR (by specs alone, this quite possibly be an A Bin LG HG2 or Samsung 30Q under the wrapper), still a re-wrap yes, but AW does not over spec their batteries
LG HB2
LG HB4
LG HB6
LG HD2 / LG HD2C
LG HD4
LG HE2 (wine red color) and the LG HE4 (yellow) - 20amp CDR, 2500mah - both of these models are solid batteries, and are great contenders to the Samsung 25R and Sony VTC4, balance of run time and decent CDR in this application
LG HG2 - 20amp CDR (latest test 18amps) 3000mah, chocolate brown - LG has several highly impressive batteries on the market, the HB Series, the long standing HE and HD series, and here the HG2. The HG2 is a great battery, with 3000mah and can do 20amp CDR this battery is like the VTC4 in the 20amp and below category, great run time and great CDR, best of both worlds. (Updated specs, 57.6watts each due to amp limit)
MNKE 18650 - 20amp CDR, 2000mah, orange - Before the Sony VTC3 hit the market, MNKE was the King of High Drains, only available cells left are the US Spec 20amp 2000mah, great battery, but becoming hard to get, its bigger 26650 brother is also a great King in the 26650 market
Samsung 25R - Here is another workhorse like the VTC4, they can be used up toward 140watts with no issue, but highly not suggested - 20amp CDR, 2500mah, Rev2 and Rev3 (light blue), New Rev 5 (light green)
Samsung 30Q - 15amp to 20amp CDR, 3000mah, pinkish purple or lavender in color - next to the LG HG2, or a 26650, 3000mah is nothing to shake a stick at, this like the HG2 gives great charge time and a decent CDR, rated at 15amp CDR, can wiggle it from time to time up to 20amp CDR, not suggested all the time, for the median wattage and below tier this battery really shines. Mooch has tested these and rated them at 20amps CDR, as well as their voltage output lasts longer than the LG HG2, puts this battery at the top of the 20amp 3000mah group.
Sony VTC3
Sony VTC4
Sony VTC5A
Sony VTC6 - (matte pine green) Factory Rated 15amps like the Samsung 30Q, independent tested 19amps CDR, 3000mah - this was released about the same time as the newer VTC5A, and Sony made a great answer to the LG HG2 and Samsung 30Q. Run time all three are about equal, but by tests the 30Q tops this chart followed by the VTC6 and trailing in the back is the HG2 due to its CDR, still a great battery and answer to compete with the LG and Samsung entries, max watts 60.8watts for this battery by itself, 121.6watts in a dual battery.

65watts to 80watts Single Battery Mod (This is a dangerous category on a single 18650, as most of the easiest available batteries out there are 20amp CDR, this category needs 25amps up to 30amps CDR so the list narrow)
LG HB2 (Up to 90watts)
LG HB4 (Up to 90watts)
LG HB6 (Up to 90watts)
LG HD2/LG HD2C/LG HD4 (Up to 72watts Max)
Sony VTC4 (Up to 72watts max)
Sony VTC5A (Up to 72watts max)

65watts and below Single Battery- Here the field is fully open
****All the batteries listed above****
AW IMR 18650 2200mah and 3000mah 20amp
LG HB2/HB4/HB6/HD2/HD2C/HE2/HE4/HG2
MNKE 18650 2000mah 20amp
Samsung 25R/30Q
Sony VTC3/VTC4/VTC5/VTC5A/VTC6

150watt Plus Triple Battery Series Regulated Mod
**215 to 250watts**
LG HB2/HB4/HB6
Sony VTC3
**175watts to 215watts**
LG HB2/HB4/HB6
LG HD2/HD2C/HD4
Sony VTC4/VTC5A
**175watts and Below***
AW IMR 20amp 2200 and 3000mah
LG HB2/HB4/HB6/HD2/HD2C/HD4/HE2/HE4/HG2
MNKE 2000mah 20amp CDR
Samsung 25R/30Q
Sony VTC3/VTC4/VTC5/VTC5A/VTC6

****I will update these lists on battery models as newer models and information become available****

/last edits
Sep 08, 2016 - Updated Blog, Added More Granular Categories, Additional Information, Added LG HD4, Sony VTC5A, Sony VTC6 to batteries, Added Efest LUC Blu4 to Chargers, removed Xtar XVTC4 2100mah 30amp
9/13/2016 - updates to the HG2 and VTC6 (credits @Mooch and @Elites)

 

[IMFire3605]

I will stress and voice what most say, there are no batteries made by the direct source manufacturers produced that are over 30amp Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) on the market, the big 4 that produce batteries we use are Panasonic/Sanyo (mainly lower end), Sony, LG, and Samsung, the only re-wrap name on the market I personally trust is AW (AW IMR) which buy A Bin batteries from manufacturers like Panasonic, Sony, LG, and Samsung, going through a second quality control method, then labelled and sold. Efest, Sub-ohm Cell, AWT, MXJO, IMRen, Basen, Eizfan, Vamped, Vappower are all re-wrap resellers that buy B and C Bin discards most times, re-wrap these cells, print the battery short pulse rating on the label as their CDR and charge double what the authentic is worth. Unless you know what you are getting, stay away from these brands as best you can, never know if under the wrapper is a Panasonic NCR18650B (6amp CDR, 12amp PDR) or an LG HE2 (20amp CDR, 35 to 40amp PDR) under that pretty bling bling wrapper, never trust a battery at its Pulse Discharge Rating, vaping uses passive cooling (just ambient air) to cool not active cooling like a fan or liquid cooler to keep the cells cool for the heat they produce at those outputs. PDR is a dangerous rating to use, you don't know if that Pulse is 500milli-seconds or 30 Seconds, best to use the Continuous Discharge Rate (CDR) for all your calculations, this is the output the battery can hold and maintain most times the entire charge of the battery with just passive cooling. This puts inexperienced vapers at risk with a false sense of safety, "Yeah man, battery says on the label it good up to 35amps, I'm at 32amps, good to go brah...", so not true in all honesty, you are out on a limb, the very furthest and narrow part of a brittle limb, one mishap its game over, that battery will vent on you and unpleasant things will happen. The best tool in a vaper's arsenal is above their shoulders, second best tool in our arsenal is the computer you now sit at reading this, Google, Yahoo, DuckDuckgo, these forums search engine, and several Youtube reviewers that stress safety and being safe, are your best friends and best sources of information.

All that being said, here is another thing to take into consideration, buying from reputable, authorized re-sellers is also another safety mechanism you have to consider, Amazon, Ebay, several others are good for finding a decent deal on some hardware, a lot of wick and wire, but batteries, *cringes*, no, just don't do it, price of an Efest Purple 35amp battery, a lot of times at Illumination Supply you can find a pair of Sony VTC4's that come in a battery case for the same price as a single of those pretty looking Efest.

With all that, I will say I will try to keep these below lists up to date as best I can.

Reputable Online Vendors for batteries, these operate and ship mainly within the US where I reside, does not hurt to send them an email and ask if they ship to your region, if not does not hurt asking if they know a re-seller in your region that does, all else fails, use the below Manufacturer and Model numbers listed below to guide your search, any UK, EU, Asian, Australian, Middle East, African, Japanese, Russian, or other region members with lists of reputable vendors, don't hesitate message me so I can add the vendor to the first list by region.

US Online
illumn.com
rtdvapor.com
liionwholesale.com
imrbatteries.com
orbtronic.com

UK/Europe Region (credit @conanthewarrior)
Fogstar (https://www.fogstar.co.uk/) UK
Batteries plus (http://batteriesplus.co.uk/) UK
Nkon (https://eu.nkon.nl/) Netherlands

Asia Online
Fasttech - fasttech.com (Be cautious here, Fasttech is worldwide distribution, yet if the battery listed does not say authentic or something to that affect, do not purchase that battery)

Battery Chargers - Always, always, always buy the best charger you can, when charging a battery is at its most dangerous state, take the analogy of you are putting pressure into a sealed can through a pin hole when charging a battery, this builds up heat, but any rechargeable battery resists having power pushed into it, so this state makes them a bit grumpy and unstable, never leave a charging battery unattended, have your charge on a fire resistance surface in case of trouble.

Nitecore - the 4 models always suggested are the "i2" "D2" "i4" and "D4", the D2 and D4 are newer designs with digital displays over the i2 and i4, their charging algorithms are not much different from each other. Nitecore chargers can be found relatively cheaply, for instance an i2 2bay can be found in the 10 to 15USD price range, the D4 around the 35USD range upper scale. Great chargers, intelligent chargers, they detect battery type, charge level, and condition batteries in a trickle charge method, thus they charge slower than most, this is real gentle on batteries, thus why they are so reliable.

Efest LUC - this includes the LUC2 and LUC4. These are bit more pricey than a Nitecore, but they are great chargers, better than the batteries they sell IMO. They have digital read outs to display charging state, battery charge level on each bay, they also have flexibility, some even come with car cigarette lighter plugs you can use them in an RV or your car while on the road, as well as you can change their charge mode from 0.5amp per channel, 1amp per channel, or 2amp per channel 2 center channels only (excellent for 26650 batteries in 2amp mode), but I highly suggest for 18650s 0.5amp most times, need a rapid charge 1amp mode max, 26650 batteries 1amp trickle charge mode and 2amp rapid charge when or if needed desperately, make sure you have plenty of batteries in rotation so you are not needing to rapid charge all that often, rapid charge decreases battery life, be kind to your batteries.
Blu6 OLED - This is the LUC4 with 2 extra battery slots, an OLED screen, simple control buttons, a nitetime lights off feature, and bluetooth 4.0 support to communicate with an Android 4.4 or higher/ Apple iOS (iPhone/iPad/iPod) device app. Max current it can handle is 4 amps total load, bay 1 and 6 support 0.5/1/2 amp output, all bays support 0.5/1amp load, info is displayed on the OLED screen which scrolls between each bay 1 at a time or via the bluetooth app, with simple blinking LED lights for each bay when charging. These lights function as buttons along with another button right next to the OLED screen that controls lights on/off, and charge mod with the combination of bay # button/control button. All functions can be controlled more user friendly via the bluetooth app. The bluetooth app itself is very informative and higher detail, front screen all bays showing status (occupied bay/non-occupied bay, charge level of each bays, charging current, charging percentage, turn OLED on/off), selecting a certain bay allows adjusting charging current for that bay, also a graph of how the battery has charged thus far). Very nice charger like the LUC4, just a little pricier with 2 extra bays and bluetooth support.
LUC6 - This is the Blu6 without the Bluetooth support, mainly operates functionality similar to the LUC4. 6bays, with the following options Bays 1 and 6 (0.5, 1.0, or 2.0amps charge modes), Bays 2 through 5 (0.5 and 1.0amp charge modes)
New LUC Blu4 - This is the LUC4 with added bluetooth like the Blu6 above, battery orientation is set at about a 45 degree angle instead of straight verticle or horizontal

Xtar - This is the king of vaping charger brands. Great quality, great functions, rarely see any problem arise with an Xtar, and they have the largest selection of chargers on the market. Like the Efest LUC, they offer 3 power settings, 0.25amp, 0.5amp, and 1amp, range in models from single bays up to 6 and 8 bay chargers, they are pricier than any other manufacturer for a reason, quality, great warranty, intelligent charging, just a great brand, I could fill a paragraph of praise on them. You get what you pay for in the end.

****This list will be updated if any new manufacturers worth using become available****

/edits
July 5, 2017
Updated List of Battery Vendors, added UK/EU vendors to list

 

[IMFire3605]

"Box Mods, What's the deal of these different configs?"

This is basic information about different box mod types being released and a basics of battery circuits. First though, I will stress if you are using a Mechanical mod of any sort or a 100watt plus regulated mod of any type to invest in 30amp Continuous Discharge Rate batteries for these devices for safety. This is general information I am entering into one post so I am not always having to retype them over and over, instead just link to them. Pre-warning, I am not a definitive expert on battery safety, or any other field, just this is information I have gathered and picked up from posts here on VU, my own searches and research, shaded a bit with my own opinion and level of comfort with how safe I wish to be, which is a bit conservative toward more safety than caution to the wind.

Most box mods on the market currently, Mechanical and Regulated are coming in Single battery config, dual battery series, or dual battery parallel configuration, there are a couple triple battery mods coming out that I am glancing and researching over only mildly, but they will follow these three basic circuits, single, series, or parallel. Remember as batteries age from charging and discharging, they lose Milliamp Hours and C Rating, both of these figures determine maximum CDR the battery can handle, either one lowers, the Max CDR decreases as well, and many suggest, including myself, never ask a battery to supply more than 50% to 75% of its max CDR all the time, for 6 even 18months down the road that battery that was 20amp CDR could only produce 10amps CDR, 30amp CDR could be max 15amps at this age. You'll notice the battery is aged due to it will not hold a charge as long as it used to, this represents physical output of the Mah rating, and the battery will get warmer under heavy load than it used to when brand new, so keep this in mind.

Remember with multi-battery devices, batteries for them should be bought together, marked as a set, charged, and used together, or married together, this makes sure the batteries have the same wear and tear, are balanced, and equal at all times for safety, that way one battery does not under perform the other and put excessive stress on either, ever stress a battery bad things happen, doesn't matter if it is a pairing of 2 batteries, a triple pairing, or even quadruple pairing, keep the batteries equal.

Single battery - This is pretty simple, we have been running these for a very, very long time. In a mechanical the battery gives output of what it still has in charge at that moment, where most regulated variable voltage or wattage devices can throttle this output higher or lower that charge level. 2 principles of this configuration are the most basic, on a mechanical you use an Ohm's Law calculator or formula to determine your final output using 4.2volts (fresh charge) and your coil resistance (Ohm's) to determine your Amperage and Wattage output, ie a 0.5ohm Dual coil dripper, using 4.2v in a calculator along with 0.5ohms we get 8.4amps and 35.28watts output to understand how safe our CDR drain will be on our battery, or using a 0.25ohm dual coil, we get 16.8amps and 70.56watts output a single battery must be able to provide to us. On a regulated, basic Variable Wattage Device, this calculation is different, though it is still an Ohm's law formula, most mod with regulation will not fire from a battery below a charge level of 3.2volts to 3.6volts, so we use this low battery charge level figure, and divide that into what wattage we have set, example 50watts max output mod, 50/3.2v=15.625amps will be required to be supplied by our battery at that time.

Multi-Battery Series Configuration - Many of the higher output devices use this configuration, older days it was called stacking batteries, see above about pairing batteries, always use same model pairings together, never mix and match. In a series, or stacked configuration, this is the same thing happening as is used in say a large Maglight Flashlight. In a series, the voltage is doubled from what a single battery is capable of, yet Mah and CDR Amp rating stay the same as a single battery, dual battery, that becomes 8.4volts, same CDR and Same Mah rating of the single cells, Sony VTC4 for instance, 4.2volts fresh charge, 20amp CDR, 2100mah, 2 in a series would be 8.4volts, 20amp CDR, 2100mah, triple series, 12.6volts, 20amp CDR, 2100mah, etc. In a mech we use this high full charge voltage and our coil resistance to determine our Amps and Watts just like a single battery config, regulated series mod like the Sigelei 150watt, we use 150watts/6.4volts=amps (3.2volt low state X2), very few mechs use this config, but many of the regulateds are using this method.

Multi-Battery Parallel Configuration - Parallel Multi-battery Configurations you see mostly with mechanicals coming out right now, the Eleaf iStick100watt Regulated also uses this method. In a parallel configuration we only get the voltage of a single battery, fresh charge 4.2volts unlike the Series method, but in this configuration load is distributed equally, so our max CDR and Mah are doubled. Using the Sony VTC4 again, these figures would be 4.2volts, 4200mah, and 40amps CDR available. Determining max CDR is the same as a single battery configuration, 4.2v and our coil resistance to determine max CDR and wattage on a mechanical, for a regulated 3.2volts divided into our mods max wattage setting.

Stay safe out there.

 

[nightshard]

Thanks for the wall of text, why don't you just use a link?
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mooch.256958/

Moving this to batteries

 

[avibp]

Thanks for not linking me to another link. Loved the read !

 

[avibp]

Thanks for the wall of text, why don't you just use a link?
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mooch.256958/

Moving this to batteries

Thanks for the link to the source (s)

 

[Elites]

@IMFire3605 Thanks so much for gathering these information and mentioning @Mooch (he is encyclopedia of Batteries). This will really help people (specially newbies) who want to read here. By the way Welcome to VU

 

[Elites]

@IMFire3605 Please update this page regarding VTC6 (link is attached https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...-vs-samsung-30q-vs-sony-vtc6-shootout.757553/ ) Thanks

 

[IMFire3605]

9/13/2016 updated, thanks @Elites

For longest run time the list is the 30Q, VTC6, HG2, and AW IMR 3000mah in the 3000mah category.
Hardest hitting is now as so
VTC6, 30Q, HG2, AW IMR 3000mah in the 3000mah category (hold voltage the longest)

 

[IMFire3605]

***Append Post 3/1/2017***

Quad Battery Parallel-Series (2 Series Sleds In Parallel) Regulated
Examples the Ijoy Maxo and the Wismec RX350

These are looking to be very interesting, the strengths of both a Parallel Dual Battery Mod and Series Dual Battery Mod, 2X Voltage of a Series Mod and 50% Extra CDR handling and double Mah of a Parallel Mod. The Ijoy Maxo especially can be run in dual battery series on one sled (2 battery slots on one side) or in the quad battery configuration. The Ijoy maxes out at 315watts where the RX350 states it can do 350watts, 315watts is more achievable than 350watts and still have plenty of run time before battery voltage gets to low with out some tricky pulse width modulation going on. So I'll break it down into tables depending on battery configuration and wattage, dual battery mode see above, quad battery mode though depending on battery CDR (20, 25, 30) you max out at 30amps for 20amp batteries, 37.5amps for 25amp batteries, and 45amps for 30amp CDR batteries, so this table will be a bit long, Ohm's Law Formula being used, (Watts/6.4v or 3.2v per battery)/90% Mod Chipset Efficiency=Maximum Amps Needed or will show lowest voltage before batteries need swapped out...

350Watts/6.4v=54.6875/90%=60.7639 (In theory of a parallel battery circuit we should get 2X CDR and Mah, but safely we only gain 50% from the extra battery) - but, only LG HB2, HB4, HB6 batteries can handle this load safely if it were 30amp per battery X2 which is 60amps, realistic, no. Realistic max watts on these I can say is 300 to 305watts safest.

350watts/6.8v or 3.4v per battery lowest=51.4706/90%=57.1895amps (still way to high)
350watts/7.2v or 3.6v per battery lowest=48.6111/90%=54.0123amps (still way to high)
350watts/7.6v or 3.8v per battery lowest=46.0526/90%=51.1696amps (still a bit to high)
350watts/8.0v or 4.0v per battery lowest=43.75/90%=48.6111amps (still a bit to high but getting there)
350watts/8.2v or 4.1v per battery lowest=42.6829/90%=47.4255amps (still not there)
350watts/8.4v or 4.2v fresh charge per battery=41.6667/90%=46.2963amps (still can't reach the 45amps Max limit, but 1.3amps over, still only batteries can handle this unrealistic wattage level are the LG HB2, HB4, HB6 as stated), "Maybe" one to five hits then the batteries will need swapped for safetly limits alone, just to way over specced of a mod needing Pulse Discharges using PWM to achieve it.

325watts/6.4v=50.7813, see above not going any further
325watts/6.8v=47.7941, still going to be over CDR
325watts/7.2=45.1389/90%=50.1543 -_-, still a bit to high)
325watts/7.6v=42.7632/90%=47.5146amps (2.5amps over safe CDR, still only the LG HB Series will handle this)
325watts/8.0v=40.625/90%=45.1389amps (Meets the mark, still LG HB2, 4, and 6)

315watts/6.4v=49.2188 (nope)
315watts/6.8v=46.3235 (nope)
315watts/7.2v=43.75/90%=48.6111 (nope)
315watts/7.4v or 3.7v per battery=42.5676/90%=47.2973amps -_- 2.3amps over safe limits)
315watts/7.6v=41.4474/90%=46.0526amps (3.8v per battery, 1.05 amps over, still LG HB2, 4, 6 batteries, but realistically 305watts maybe)

305watts/6.4v=47.6563 (nope)
305watts/6.8v=44.8529/90%=49.8366 (nope)
305watts/7.2v=42.3611/90%=47.0679 -_-)
305watts/7.4v=41.2162/90%=45.7958amps (Probably the highest realistically you can achieve with these mods, any higher is just a bit to dangerous, this setting here means you are pulling the batteries at 3.7v per battery, right at what their median voltage rating are, still LG HB2, HB4, HB6 batteries, 46amps (.8amps over 45amp safety, but being parallel you are getting 3000mah of run time (HB series is rated at 1500mah, parallel that is 1500X2=3000mah).

So, reverse the formula to Amps X 90% X Voltage = Watts to get maximum runtimes (aka realistic real world figures for average user usage).

30amp CDR batteries
45amps X 90%=40.5 X 6.4v=259.2watts or 260watts rounded up (LG HB2, HB4, HB6 only)

25amp CDR batteries
37.5amps X 90%=33.75 X 6.4v=216watts (Sony VTC5A, LG HD2, HD2C, HD4, LG HB2, HB4, HB6)

20amp CDR batteries
30amps X 90%=27 X 6.4v=172.8watts or 173watts rounded up maximum (any 20amp battery or higher will do, though Samsung 30Q 3000mah, Sony VTC5A 2500mah, LG HE2/HE4 2500mah, or Samsung 25R 2500mah would give 20amp CDR 6000mah to 5000mah total runtime)

IMO, the concept works, but the ratings these manufacturers are pushing over, above, and beyond realistic achievable watts is just hype and fan craze, I could see a quad battery series reaching 350watts no real problem (3.2v per batery X 4 batteries = 12.8v so...) 350watts/12.8v=27.3438/90%=30.3819amps, the LG HB Series can handle this no problem.

Quad Battery Parallel With 30amp CDR batteries (30amps first battery, 15amps extra 2nd, 3rd, and 4th battery (30+15+15+15=75amps total)
(Amps X 90% X 3.2v= Max Watts)
75amps X 90% = 67.5 X 3.2v = 216watts Maximum

Why these companies are knocking on the "Devil's Gates" just to make a buck while putting people in jeopardy is just beyond me what greed can do, please people, quit falling for the hype and supporting this type of insane specifications, do your research, sorry, math and numbers never lie once you have all the proper variables, do your homework before looking at an insane mod like this.

 

[IMFire3605]

Updated Posts July 5, 2017
Credit @conanthewarrior

Added UK/EU Vendors to battery vendors list in post #2

 

[Mattp169]

ok serious question because I don't get it
your saying in a dual battery mod that can do 200 watts you should use 30amp batteries
But why?
sure at 200 watts and a .1 ohm build I get it
but even at .3 ohms and 200 watts you are only drawing 25 amps and wth is pushing a .3 ohm coil at 200 watts for more then a few seconds which from my understanding should not harm a good 20 amp battery if you are only pulsing it and giving it time to cool off in between pulses.

My point is depending on how you are using a mod (watts and coil resistance) should determine your battery not if its a 2 or 3 battery mod and how many watts it does.

 

[IMFire3605]

A dual battery mod just can't safely reach 200watts unless you mentally set in your mind at say 1/3 battery charge is your low battery cut off, then yes you can do it, but still most users do not know or take into account their mod's lowest battery voltage cutoff before the mod kicks a check battery error or completely shuts down.

Watts Set/Lowest Battery Voltage/Mod Control Board Efficiency=Maximum Amps in a regulated mod
Unlike a Mech/Unregulated where Fresh Charge Voltage/Resistance (Ohms)=Maximum Amps

Most regulated mods have a low battery voltage of about 3.0 to 3.2v per battery, the Smok Alien 220W is even worse with a 2.8 to 2.9v lowest per battery, the mods just can't reliably and safely sustain those wattages.

Smok Alien 220W Examples (Dual Battery Series so that is voltage per battery X number of batteries, using 2.9v per battery that becomes 5.8v lowest before error or shutdown
220W/5.8v/90% Control Board Efficiency=42.1456amps Needed that both batteries have to support
220W/6.8v/90%=35.9477amps needed
220W/7.8v/90%=31.3390amps needed

Sigelei 213 Dual Battery Mod (3.2v per battery being used)
213W/6.4v/90%=36.9792amps needed
200W/6.4v/90%=34.7222amps needed
180W/6.4v/90%=31.25amps needed

Wismec RX200 Triple Battery (9.6v Lowest Being Used)
200W/9.6v/90%=23.1481amps needed

Therion DNA200 Triple Battery (3.2v per battery, the DNA200 spec sheet shows the DNA200 efficiency as 97 to 98%, and applies to the DNA166 which is the 2 battery configuration of the DNA200)

200W/9.6v/97%=21.4777amps Needed
166W/6.4v/97%=26.7397amps Needed

Reversing the the formula for a triple battery mod (Amps X Mod Efficiency X Lowest Voltage=Max Watts)
30amps X 90% X 9.6v = 259.2 watts Max

Compared to a Mechanical/Unregulated as stated above is a completely different animal
4.2v/0.14ohms = 30amps
4.2v/0.28ohms = 15amps
4.2v/0.56ohms = 7.5amps


You are thinking about 2 completely different animals and how they are calculated for amp draw. The weight mostly rests on the "End User's" own level of their safety and what they are willing to accept, I myself for purpose of these posts here use a more conservative leaning toward more safety approach and am a firm believer of math never lies. As my examples show, even the most tiny change of variables can impact things drastically, and in the end, it is still buyer beware, a lot of these companies are way overspeccing their mods or using amp figures to design them from the re-wrapper companies like Efest and such which in itself is a dangerous position to put and end user. The consumer still needs to do their research properly no matter the product that is electronic, from a Kindle Fire Tablet to a Microwave, to the mod and batteries for those mods in this industry.

 

[Mattp169]

SO are you saying that regardless of what the resistanace of a coil is on a regulated mod, the wattage you set it at determines your amp draw on your batteries?

 

[IMFire3605]

Yep. Two completely different formulas of Ohm's Law being applied, though with a regulated it termed more "Watt's Law" than "Ohm's Law", and both are figured on completely different voltage scales, mech highest voltage available, regulated, lowest voltage available. It took me a couple weeks to wrap my brain around the concept back when regulated mods were breaking the 50watts threshold back about 3 years ago, and was a bit confusing.

With Ohms Law on a mech you could find just simple calculator apps or use steam-engine.org 's Ohms law calculator, we really haven't had a regulated mod calculator to do this until recently, which Liionwholesale has provided

https://liionwholesale.com/pages/regulated-mod-calculator

*Note - this calculator uses 3.0v per battery as the lowest in its calculations where I use 3.2v per battery as a conservative safety buffer.

/edit
And also remember, pulsing the batteries in a regulated mod, unless the mod is every nano to milli-second pulse width modulating voltage pull, most batteries in a pulse discharge, that pulse as there is no industry standard of what a pulse length is, are between 500milli-seconds (0.5seconds) to maximum 2 seconds, at a 5 second pulse you are at minimum 3 seconds over the battery's pulse ability, and the pulse argument a lot of people throw up is absolutely "IRRELEVANT" when it comes to battery safety.

 

[Mattp169]

ok ok re read watts law, sort of get what you are saying.
lets test me out
so my ipv 5 no matter the coil the highest Voltage it will go up to is 7.5
so that should mean an efficiency of 91.4%
now I=P/V
so at 200 watts and 7.5 V that and then multiply by 91.4% It should be pulling 29.175 amps per battery
but you are saying that you must use the low voltage cut off to figure out the max amps it COULD PULL
which made sense to me for a moment because if my batteries only have say 6V in them then at 200 watts thats would be over 36amps per battery

Then I put in a set of batteries I knew which were discharged somewhat (they were on my charger) and only had 3.6 V each YET my IPV 5 still said it was firing at 7.5V and 200 watts
Now I always thought that one of the features of a regulated mod was it had capacitors or something in it to boost or buck voltage or some variable to maintain a consistent vape from full charge to low charge cut off

SO with my 2 batteries with a total volt of 7.2 and my ipv 5 saying its firing at 7.5 what is going on? Is it firing at 7.2 or 7.5?

 

[Mattp169]

also your charger list says efest luc6
Never heard of it but I have a luc V6 if that is what you are referring to, your info is incorrect...all 6 slots do .68 amps or you can set slots 3 and 4 to 2 amp and you can use it as a charger with usb. meaning you can plus a device into with a usb cable and recharge it using a battery in the charger

 

[IMFire3605]

If it has a booster circuit it is firing at 7.5v, if it is DC to DC with a bucking circuit, then no. But even with a Booster circuit, a booster circuit pulls raw amps to convert to volts, you see these more common in a single battery mod, so as voltage declines, the amps go up even more so when the booster is operating. Bucking circuits, which shunt extra voltage from the batteries into the control board, more commonly seen in multi-battery mods like you IPV5, the voltage available still declines as the batteries get weaker.

The Efest LUC6 is the V6 as you mentioned, if all bays are occupied and charge rate is set to 1amp each, then yes as like the LUC V4, max current the charger pulls is 4 amps, then you are down to 0.68amps charge rate per bay, if only 4 bays are used and all set to 1amp charge rate, then it is charging at 1amp max per slot. The LUC line does ramp up to max amps it can handle or is set to until the batteries reach about 75% to 90% charge, then it slows down and trickle charges the rest of the way to full charge, quite similar in how the Nitecore and Xtar lines operate, just with the LUC and Xtar lines you can manually adjust the max amps cap instead of letting the control board decide like the older i2, D2, i4, and D4 lines of Nitecore do.

 

[Mattp169]

ok thank you, Im starting to understand this now. SO lets see if i really get it

so on my IPV 5 regardless of the battery voltage and or coil, 200 watts is going to draw 29+ amps per battery
Its always trying to supply 7.5volts
once the batteries get below 7.5 volts though its going to draw more amps from the battery then 29. up to about 37amps at 3v per battery

now this is only true at 200 watts

so you should take the cdr of one battery multiply by your mod efficiency and multiply by your low voltage cutoff to determine the highest wattage you could safely run on a mod
in my case i am using lg hg2s which says 20cdr even though I know mooch rates them slightly lower but regardless that puts me in a safe range of around 100 to 110 watts depending on if you use moochs cdr or LGs
anything above that will work but risks venting the batteries
do i got this correct?

 

[IMFire3605]

Yes, I generally say with batteries for most mods, single 20amp battery is about 60watts per battery, dual battery about 120watts, triple battery about 180watts, etc. 95% of vapers I know, batteries reach about 1/4 charge they swap out anyway, my Sigelei 150watt mod, it hits about 1/4 to 1/3 charge in the 80ish watts range, once it fires at that low a voltage supply it kicks me low voltage error, the battery rest voltage may be 3.4v each, but when under load that voltage sags down to say 2.8v each battery, mod detects this and refuses to fire, below the low voltage cutoff limit it is programmed with. There are many, many variables that can happen, or need to be taken into consideration needing a degree in Electronics Engineering to where you can squeeze every bit of available power you can out, it is best to K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid). Thus most of us here give figures with general safety buffers and guidelines with the relevant formulas involved, used to be much more simpler back in the sub-ohm expansion days on a mech /w an RDA to do it, its just Ohms Law V/R=I, but these past 2 plus years regulated mods are beginning to press the boundaries of safety as well, and no stop appears to be in the future ahead either. When I get the time this weekend I'll update this thread with a bit more info and some more links like the regulated mod amp calculator above and such, just been busy these past months.

But for the HG2
18amps X 90% X 3.2v = 51.84w per single battery, dual battery 103.68w, 155.52w triple battery etc, but, using the 20amps it is rated for you can squeeze by safely with the 60, 120, 180 figures of the Samsung 30Q just fine, 2amps over really isn't taxing the batteries that much or dangerously, its when you start reaching 5 to 10+over CDR you have to worry and need to look at a higher CDR battery than you have. The HG2 can still handle 20amps just fine, Mooch's testing and rating is lower due to battery internal temperature at 20amps full discharge from 4.2v to 2.5v on his test bench exceeded his safety temp cap of 80C (176F) which is hot to handle bare handed, you'd feel the battery temp through the mod itself by that point, at 5 to 10, to some mods max 15second discharge pulses during a vape, the battery heats up, just not as drastically as Mooch tests them from fresh charge down to full dishcarge. Still, like I said, though the mod may handle 200watts in a dual battery set up, the limiting factor is the battery, even with a LG HB6 (1500mah 30amp CDR) 200watts maxed out is 20watts over what the batteries can handle safely at a conservative 3.2v low voltage per battery, but 3.5v or so (about 50% charge) before needing swapping them out 200watts is attainable with the proper battery.

 

[Mattp169]

@IMFire3605 TY for taking the time to explain this in more detail, I appreciate it

I get that most people, including myself use general numbers and usually err on the side of caution.

I get ohms law and thats what Ive always used to figure out if something is safe, course i run most things under 60 watts

I just never really got why it did not apply to a regulated mod. I probably still dont get the whole thing, but at least know I have a better understanding

 

[Islandswamp]

Yep. Two completely different formulas of Ohm's Law being applied, though with a regulated it termed more "Watt's Law" than "Ohm's Law", and both are figured on completely different voltage scales, mech highest voltage available, regulated, lowest voltage available. It took me a couple weeks to wrap my brain around the concept back when regulated mods were breaking the 50watts threshold back about 3 years ago, and was a bit confusing.

With Ohms Law on a mech you could find just simple calculator apps or use steam-engine.org 's Ohms law calculator, we really haven't had a regulated mod calculator to do this until recently, which Liionwholesale has provided

https://liionwholesale.com/pages/regulated-mod-calculator

*Note - this calculator uses 3.0v per battery as the lowest in its calculations where I use 3.2v per battery as a conservative safety buffer.

/edit
And also remember, pulsing the batteries in a regulated mod, unless the mod is every nano to milli-second pulse width modulating voltage pull, most batteries in a pulse discharge, that pulse as there is no industry standard of what a pulse length is, are between 500milli-seconds (0.5seconds) to maximum 2 seconds, at a 5 second pulse you are at minimum 3 seconds over the battery's pulse ability, and the pulse argument a lot of people throw up is absolutely "IRRELEVANT" when it comes to battery safety.

I'm not a dumb person but I'm still trying to fully understand all of these terms. I do know that I will only use 30 amp batteries and I typically try to stay under 150 watts (usually around 120, and I was told by a trusted vendor that anything over 80 watts is pushing a dual 18650 battery anyway).

This makes me wonder though; I have, in addition to the pair of regulated dual 18650 mods I own, a Smok G150. That built in battery looks to be a pair of 18650s packed together. Isn't it somewhat pushing it that smok rates the mah of this mod at over 4000 and suggests that it should do that high a wattage over the entire course of it's life span?

Anyways thanks for providing the info. Battery safety is important to me. I get slightly nervous at times just because of what these batteries can do.

 

[Jon@LiionWholesale]

I'm not a dumb person but I'm still trying to fully understand all of these terms. I do know that I will only use 30 amp batteries and I typically try to stay under 150 watts (usually around 120, and I was told by a trusted vendor that anything over 80 watts is pushing a dual 18650 battery anyway).

This makes me wonder though; I have, in addition to the pair of regulated dual 18650 mods I own, a Smok G150. That built in battery looks to be a pair of 18650s packed together. Isn't it somewhat pushing it that smok rates the mah of this mod at over 4000 and suggests that it should do that high a wattage over the entire course of it's life span?

Anyways thanks for providing the info. Battery safety is important to me. I get slightly nervous at times just because of what these batteries can do.

Does the battery come out so that it can be measured or something? Is it possible that it's, for example, two 21700's packed together, or two 26650's? That would make it potentially possible.

Otherwise they're probably playing the marketing game of calling two 2100mAh batteries in series 4200mAh when it's actually 2100mAh.