Titanium, TC and Possible Sacred Cows?

[gsmit1]

This is an interesting discussion that deserves a thread of it's own in my opinion, If nobody else shares that opinion that's fine too. I'm doing my best to reconstruct the relevant bits. If I miss anybody, it wasn't intentional.

I'm trying titanium for the first time today, also some 18g Kanthal(tm)...

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I'm trying titanium for the first time today, also some 18g Kanthal(tm)...

View attachment 126467

First build sucked badly, so I murdered it for science - titanium turns yellow, then white, and yellow again each time you get it hot, then white when it cools!
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I'm trying titanium for the first time today, also some 18g Kanthal(tm)...

View attachment 126467

First build sucked badly, so I murdered it for science - titanium turns yellow, then white, and yellow again each time you get it hot, then white when it cools!
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A small 2x27g titanium fused clapton, kanthal wrap

Ready to vape it at length, after testing the waters with my toe at first

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Not sure yet how to make a vape I really like, yet... Resistance starts so low and goes so high as it heats up, so it acts completely differently on a mech (weaker and weaker)compared to regulated (weak then hotter and hotter), so...guess next build with it will be low-low (0.05, but goes up to 0.2-0.3, jeeze) but fireable on one of my unregulateds

 

[gsmit1]

@zephyr/Meg (still not used to zephyr) TI like N200 should only be vaped in TC. Both can give off some nasty shit when vaped in VW or on a mech. At least everything I have read says so...

Yeah @zephyr I think I might have heard something similar. I think you should put it in TC cause if it gets too hot some of the alloys can actually vaporize and no one should be breathing that stuff in. But being that you don't really like a very warm vape like I do maybe TC would work for you. It doesn't work for me I literally like my vapes hot but for you it might keep the temperature at a preferable level and then you can sustain that level of heat without worrying about the vape getting any warmer. I know 400 degrees is a pretty typical setting. I know for sure when I vape unregulated I go way hotter. The downside for me is I change my coil about every two weeks .

 

[gsmit1]

Yeah @zephyr I think I might have heard something similar. I think you should put it in TC cause if it gets too hot some of the alloys can actually vaporize and no one should be breathing that stuff in. But being that you don't really like a very warm vape like I do maybe TC would work for you. It doesn't work for me I literally like my vapes hot but for you it might keep the temperature at a preferable level and then you can sustain that level of heat without worrying about the vape getting any warmer. I know 400 degrees is a pretty typical setting. I know for sure when I vape unregulated I go way hotter. The downside for me is I change my coil about every two weeks .

Everything I read from forums and from wire sellers said the same, but they are wrong, in two ways:

Firstly, titanium dioxide does not form unless the coil is glowed very hot. Titanium takes only a bit less heat to be ruined by dry firing than 316L SS does. Temperatures during vaping are much, much lower than that of course

Secondly, titanium dioxide has Never been found to increase the risk of cancer in humans. This was the most interesting part of my research. From two studies done on rats (with methods that are now considered inhumane), the rats experienced lung overload from Ti dioxide - they basically breathed nothing but the powder, in other words. They got cancer, yeah - at levels no human has ever experienced and certainly would not from even taking a big super nasty dry hit of unwicked Titanium wire. Titanium dioxide was labeled as a Group 2b carcinogen, which means "possibly carcinogenic to humans." Which is less worrisome than "probably carcinogenic" 2A which is still below Group 1 "known carcinogen"
Radiofrequency waves are also a Group 2b carcinogen - I'd get cancer from holding a cellphone up to my head or from all the radio I listen to first, yeah?

Tl:dr - danger of vaping Ti wire without temperature control mode is comparable to using a cell phone, and I am a nerd who reads research papers for fun

 

[gsmit1]

I was thinking about this very thing recently. Titanium dioxide is not formed until at least twice the common temperatures for vaping. So if it was built to appropriate resistance and produced normal vaping temperatures, why would it be unsafe to use in a mech?

Right now I'm in my car vaping 26 gauge titanium t1 at 480 degrees. Even if off by a little bit, it would take at least twice that temperature to be dangerous.
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Yep. And that's still assuming titanium dioxide is even dangerous. It doesn't have the added taste kanthal does - my juices taste different lol, I'm so used to kanthal

It does have a bad taste to me if I heat it past yellow - so I don't "color" it, just heat it until it stops smoking off whatever it gets on it during manufacturing, basically

This is 2x27 Ti fused with 46 kanthal - I'm praying it doesnt turn red like my dirty ass 40g kanthal does (the big spool I got from kingorchid is smothered in graphite and I have to prefire the living hell out of it to prevent "yucky red wick and juice syndrome"

Next time I respool my 40 I'm going to soak cotton balls in alcohol and let it run through those to wipe some of that off

Now here, of course I heat it very gently because I can't see the titanium under the kanthal wrap - I trust a low glow and the lack of yuck taste I had from my first build that I colored to purple that I didnt overheat it


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(i cut those wicks a lot shorter)

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[gsmit1]

I was thinking about this very thing recently. Titanium dioxide is not formed until at least twice the common temperatures for vaping. So if it was built to appropriate resistance and produced normal vaping temperatures, why would it be unsafe to use in a mech?

Right now I'm in my car vaping 26 gauge titanium t1 at 480 degrees. Even if off by a little bit, it would take at least twice that temperature to be dangerous.
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I think this is probably a good way to describe it. For me anyway. It's the absence of any type of added metallic character to the vapor that makes titanium different in my very limited experience.

It doesn't taste like anything. It's like you get the flavor of the juice only.
Not that there's anything terrible about any other wire either though. I don't mean it like that.

 

[zephyr]

Ah man, I did start out with "they're wrong," didn't I lol...not a nice way to start a post, my bad

 

[gsmit1]

So once you dry fire Ti to a certain point there is a chemical change. To what level of temperature we haven't specified exactly. And then we're working on the assumption that cancer is the only concern. Just makes me nervous to think about. I have always thought vaping in general was a better alternative to smoking. However even vaping with your traditional alloys or tank coils is most likely going to have some effect on the cardio respiratory system as opposed to just breathing air. We all hope it is minimal to nominal. I've kinda accepted that and rationalized that whatever effects I suffer will be mitigated by the amount of aerobic and anaerobic stress I put my on my cardio respiratory system over the course of the weeks, months, and years with the activities I do. I don't know with 100% certainty that I'm right. I don't think anyone else knows with 100% certainty that they are right. But I'm not saying you're wrong. I just think there are a ton of cardio respiratory possibilities because the living organism is very complicated. In my field if I had just read financial research papers and tried to accomplish what I accomplished I would have failed at supporting my family. Putting isolated research papers into the context of a complete complicated subject matter takes absolute expertise. I don't have that particular expertise but in the end the only reason why I mention anything instead of just keeping my giant mouth shut is because I do care about my fellow vapers and builders and I don't want anything bad to happen to anybody. Especially you. So.. be careful I guess!

"Titanium readily reacts with oxygen at 1,200 °C (2,190 °F) in air, and at 610 °C (1,130 °F) in pure oxygen, forming titanium dioxide."

That's pretty hot, imo, and having one metal (or at least, 99.5% one metal) leaves me feeling more confident in my own safety/health than the gamut of variations in composition you may find in FeCrAl, N80 and 316L

Nickel compounds, including Nickel Oxide (when nichrome turns green) are all Group 1 carcinogens (Probably causes cancer) and has been shown to increase respiratory cancers in people exposed to it in industrial work

I don't know how the various mixes of metals affect how quickly nickel oxidizes - I don't even know with certainty what exact % of each element is in any spool of wire bought from any vape wire seller, I have to assume that what they call N80 is N80, and even then the %s of other metals can still have a range

But I know that pure titanium turns into titanium dioxide at over 2,000 degrees, and that my wire won't reach that during install or during vaping - I'm not worried about the up-to 0.5% iron in my titanium wire lowering that enough to matter

 

[gsmit1]

That’s interesting, but we don’t breathe pure oxygen. I mean we can all google anecdotes. If you’re comfortable with it that’s all that matters.

Titanium readily reacts with oxygen at 1,200 °C (2,190 °F) in air,

 

[gsmit1]

@Shredtravolta
I have no doubt that you are concerned for people's safety. As are all others who have written on this subject. Maybe you have reread her post by now, but it does say almost 2200 degrees in our common environmental atmosphere (air) and 1130 in pure oxygen, which scenario no vaper will ever experience.

In a nutshell, vapor is produced by boiling eliquid within certain temperatures. Too hot and it combusts. Not hot enough and no or too little vapor. As long as the heating element produces that desired result, what difference does it make how it does so? If 480 degrees produces a pleasant vape for me on a YIHI device using TC (which it does), how does it follow that reaching that same temperature, or thereabouts, without using TC makes it dangerous? The liquid would ignite and the cotton burn long before temperatures producing titanium dioxide were reached. Or so it seems.

This is what I was thinking about the other night.

Please don't take me as attacking you or in any other way being negative toward you. I don't mean it like that at all. I'm just thinking out loud and inviting you to do the same.

This was my thought process, and I have no problem being told why I'm wrong. In fact, being proven wrong only means that you have more truth and less error than before. A thing for which one should be grateful.

I know how vapor is produced thank you. And you weren’t necessarily wrong. We’d need a chemist, a pulmonary Dr. and a respiratory therapist to do that. That was my problem with the whole thing.

 

[gsmit1]

I know how vapor is produced thank you.

Of course you know that I certainly didn't mean to imply you didn't. I was only reiterating it for the sake of the discussion.

We’d need a chemist, a pulmonary Dr. and a respiratory therapist to do that. That was my problem with the whole thing.

And they will prove that titanium is either safe (or as safe as other wire) to vape at a given temperature or not. How will their findings dictate that the method by which that temperature is reached effects it's safety? That's the only question I was advancing.

It appears that in my attempt to simply be clear I have come across as condescending. If so it was unintentional and I apologize.

No man you're good you weren't condescending, I appreciate that you have an open mind and you're asking important questions. Like I said I'm smart enough to know what I'm not so smart with and I really don't have the answer. Like my problem was the way the subject was approached, like everyone is wrong and here's why. If your gonna say everyone's wrong, you might be right, but tell me why you're qualified to educate me don't just google and regurgitate. These questions are obviously very complicated. As builders we have to be careful what we tell people cause a lot of people are going to look to us as the ones who have the answers. In any occasion when you have opposing views I think it's always important to fully understand the opposing view and be able to argue that side of it as well as your own side. I'd like to see some effort towards comprehensive understanding as opposed to fact dropping which seems impressive... when no one is there to check you. For example titanium dioxide is created just above 600 degrees C not 1200 in our atmosphere. And there are a lot of other things that happen on a molecular level. Sometimes some of us read an article about oxidation and all of a sudden we know everything there is to know lol. I don't know what I'm claiming because I read a paper. I know that cause I did the experiment in the lab and was graded on it. I did it for many many metals, and it had nothing to do with vaping at the time. I hope I do not come off as arrogant I've just always thought as builders we have to be really really careful what we tell people. But yeah I have nothing but love for you man,. And I've got nothing but love for @zephyr or Meg as we know her.

Sorry about that. I'm not good with Celsius. I was referring only to Fahrenheit temps.


No, you're good and yes, I wouldn't suggest anybody try ti in a mech. The thing was, I was having a hard time understanding why an experienced user shouldn't though too. That was what was going round my head the other night.

And back at ya fer sher. I don't like unnecessarily making enemies.

 

[gsmit1]

I strongly believe a person does not have to have a degree in a field to be allowed to read, learn, gain knowledge, and share the knowledge they gain with others - and everyone here is just as able to do this as I am, if they really want to

I'm trying to share information as I find it, to counter a popular belief that I believe is incorrect, yes. Popular belief can often be wrong, you know that - especially if the information spreads by one person regurgitating/parroting what they hear or read from another person, without researching an opposing view. What I am doing is that very thing you asked - researching the opposing view of popular belief, playing devils advocate. We know what most vapers think of titanium (if they think anything at all about it) so I am sharing this information because I recognize that not everyone is willing or able to do the research, themselves - whether from lack of time to invest in the search, or whatever the reason may be.

I am going to state two more things then drop it because that's not what this thread is for


-titanium only burns if the Air surrounding it reaches 600 degrees celsius, not if the wire reaches that temperature - I am going to try to burn titanium today and I bet it will melt before air around it can reach that temperature

-titanium nitride is made in an atmosphere of 100% nitrogen, or made from other titanium compounds that would not occur in vaping, or in normal air

-argon is an inert gas, it doesnt react with anything

-the rest of those gasses are in such tiny amounts, and -
That other stuff, could be worries for every other kind of metal we use to vape, too, so I think it's unfair to put me to task to find all the other information that nobody will look up for other vape wires

Now I'm gonna go build, this has bummed me out

you, Shred

Edit: just read your PMs, not bummed out anymore! Debate is the spice of life, right,

 

[gsmit1]

Hey Meg, I just wanted to clear up some pure chemistry stuffs so you don’t think I’m a dumbo, putting aside whether titanium is good to vape or not I love you and I’m not arguing this is just some stuff I learned in college. So if the air around titanium is 600 C the kinetic energy in the metal won’t exceed 600 C. Before that point the metal will give off no gas but the molecules will start to change slightly. If we stop before the 600 point mark but close to it we can test to see that the metal isn’t quite as durable. Argon plays a certain role in the balance of what we breathe so although it is inert so to speak there are physiological differences that argon in conjunction with other gases could play if say the balance of our atmosphere was off so to speak. And those other gases are in tiny amounts you’re right, but we evolved to breathe those exact tiny amounts and when I talk about breathing I don’t mean that our bodies use them, I just mean in conjunction together they all help present the oxygen to our aveoli in a palletable way. Your also right about titanium nitride. When we heat the metal titanium titanium nitride molecules are broken down into several separate molecules that look like puzzle pieces of titanium nitride so that was an oversimplification on my part. What was interesting is the titanium nitride molecules tried to gravitate towards the nitrogen molecules before it was dismantled and we detected that through the presence of certain ions that wouldn’t normally be present, for a short amount of time. As you can tell I made this as little about vaping as possible. Anyway it’s all stuff you probably know already. Back to the builds!

 

[gsmit1]

Whew. I think that's pretty close.

 

[zephyr]

Lightningvapes, says titanium's resistance is double that of N80 - I figure they meant Ni200, that would be about right

I haven't tasted it without any dry burn yet, that's on tomorrow's to-do list - but being on a mech, the resistance of titanium going up as it heats, wattage going down, kind of like self-limiting temperature control

 

[gsmit1]

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Lightningvapes, says titanium's resistance is double that of N80 - I figure they meant Ni200, that would be about right.

I do hereby nominate you to tell them That's where I got my test spool from. 25ft. 26ga. 2 bucks for black Friday.

I haven't tasted it without any dry burn yet, that's on tomorrow's to-do list - but being on a mech, the resistance of titanium going up as it heats, wattage going down, kind of like self-limiting temperature control

Think of how cockeyed it would be if Titanium turned out to be actually safer on a mech than on a regulated mod in wattage mode.

 

[zephyr]

I do hereby nominate you to tell them That's where I got my test spool from. 25ft. 26ga. 2 bucks for black Friday.


Think of how cockeyed it would be if Titanium turned out to be actually safer on a mech than on a regulated mod in wattage mode.

You're right, I guess I should send them a message lol - I'm about to buy a spool of 22g there and see if it's crazy different than what I got from CrazyWireCo

I've had 430SS that was hard as a rock, and 430SS that was as soft as 316L, so who knows...what I have now is "vacuum annealed" and so hard it doesn't like to straighten

 

[Shredtravolta]

What’s the meaning of scared cows?

 

[The Cromwell]

Sacred cows taste as good as non sacred cows?

 

[Shredtravolta]

@gsmit1 you left out one of my postsJk : )

 

[Shredtravolta]

Sacred cows taste as good as non sacred cows?

Oh sacred cows LoL.

 

[Vape Fan]

Sacred cows taste as good as non sacred cows?

Sounds like they would taste better...

 

[gsmit1]

Wadda bonehead I am
Yes, "sacred" cows.

 

[The Cromwell]

Sounds like they would taste better...

Probably... a more blessed grade of cow?

 

[gsmit1]

@gsmit1 you left out one of my postsJk : )

There's still some editing to do there I think, but they all started to run together after a while and I had to go somewhere, so I did the best I could for the time being

I just wanted to provide a place for this continue in the future without hijacking the other thread.

 

[PoppaVic]

those "scared" cows are delectable.

 

[Shredtravolta]

those "scared" cows are delectable.

Everyone knows you have to scare the sh*t out of a good cut of meat before you marinate it. Fo mo betta flavor.

 

[PoppaVic]

..and mesquite... pepper... worschestershire

 

[Shredtravolta]

..and mesquite... pepper... worschestershire

The real question is if someone forgets the mesquite, do you act polite and tell them it’s great, or do you be honest and tell them you know if you use mesquite it could be a little bit mo betta? I can see both sides of the argument.

 

[PoppaVic]

I might suffer hickory, but.. No charcoal? No mesquite? No hickory? Gimme' a beer.

 

[Shredtravolta]

I might suffer hickory, but.. No charcoal? No mesquite? No hickory? Gimme' a beer.

LOL ahahah. Too many people only know how to cook efficiently with microwaves. I mean if all else fails just give me a regular pan and a stove with a fresh cut of meat or fish and I’ll make it alright for everyone... and I’ll give you as many beers as you want.

 

[Bigrick]

Did someone say beer?

 

[zephyr]

@gsmit1 check it out, I emailed lightningvapes and they fixed it and emailed me back less than a day later! I feel like I did a small good deed

 

[gsmit1]

@gsmit1 check it out, I emailed lightningvapes and they fixed it and emailed me back less than a day later! I feel like I did a small good deed

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That was very responsive and professional of them indeed I think it's a husband and wife team that owns that business.

How are you finding their wire to be? I've only had the opportunity to use the titanium and a bit of kanthal because I have this friend online who sent me bunch of really great coils recently.

 

[zephyr]

That was very responsive and professional of them indeed I think it's a husband and wife team that owns that business.

How are you finding their wire to be? I've only had the opportunity to use the titanium and a bit of kanthal because I have this friend online who sent me bunch of really great coils recently.

I have never used wire from Lightningvapes - but I ordered 22g titanium 1 and 38g kanthal to try out

 

[The Cromwell]

Lightning vapes had a fire about a year or so ago. then changed hands.

 

[gsmit1]

Ok, there. I did it. I took my Lotus off the VK530 and after double checking the pin, put it straight on this hybrid mech mod with a fully charged 30T. It has that same pair of 26ga. titanium coils in it coming in at .18. It vapes great. In fact, it's truthfully not even quite as warm as it is on the VK530 at 480 and 80 joules. No lie.