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The Unofficial ENDS Loophole Thread

AndriaD

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I'm very torn in this area.. Minors smoke lets face it, that's when we all started... Normally, no one starts smoking in their 20s. So what do we do? allow minors to continue to smoke and get them vaping at 18, or do we give them an alternative? I started when I was 12 years old. Thats 6 full years of getting addicted to smoking before I could legally buy a device. Some would say its up to the parents but most kids wont tell their parents they are smoking. It's a very very strange problem.

On one hand we don't want minors vaping because it looks cool, but on the other we want to get those that are smoking away from it.

Maybe there is some legal middle ground that will happen in the future.

Is it better for them to smoke because it looks cool? Remember, these are kids we're talking about, not people with fully-capable good judgment. WE know it's not cool at all, but to kids...? It's a grownup thing, and therefore, to them, cool. I'd FAR rather see a bunch of goofy teens blowing monster clouds, no matter WHY, than smoking cigarettes for ANY reason. But to know that they're smoking because some self-righteous adult thought that teens shouldn't vape? The very idea makes me SICK.

If they start vaping, maybe they won't ever try smoking. Or if they do ultimately try smoking, maybe they'll think EWWWWWWWWWWW! Because really, the taste of cigarettes compared to the taste of ANY vape??? EWWWWWWWWWW!

I bet I'm not the only one who smoked for 6 months before I could stand the taste of it. Because I was 13, and thought it was "cool." There was no other option then... now there is.

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JuicyLucy

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Is it better for them to smoke because it looks cool? Remember, these are kids we're talking about, not people with fully-capable good judgment. WE know it's not cool at all, but to kids...? It's a grownup thing, and therefore, to them, cool. I'd FAR rather see a bunch of goofy teens blowing monster clouds, no matter WHY, than smoking cigarettes for ANY reason. But to know that they're smoking because some self-righteous adult thought that teens shouldn't vape? The very idea makes me SICK.

If they start vaping, maybe they won't ever try smoking. Or if they do ultimately try smoking, maybe they'll think EWWWWWWWWWWW! Because really, the taste of cigarettes compared to the taste of ANY vape??? EWWWWWWWWWW!

I bet I'm not the only one who smoked for 6 months before I could stand the taste of it. Because I was 13, and thought it was "cool." There was no other option then... now there is.

Andria

You pretty much said it all.

And for crying out loud, tobacco is already outlawed for minors but they are still getting their hands on it or teen smoking would not exist.
 

Mattp169

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I'm very torn in this area.. Minors smoke lets face it, that's when we all started... Normodally, ..no one starts smoking in their 20s. So what do we do? allow minors to continue to smoke and get them vaping at 18, or do we give them an alternative? I started when I was 12 years old. Thats 6 full years of getting addicted to smoking before I could legally buy a device. Some would say its up to the parents but most kids wont tell their parents they are smoking. It's a very very strange problem.

On one hand we don't want minors vaping because it looks cool, but on the other we want to get those that are smoking away from it.

Maybe there is some legal middle ground that will happen in the future.
JOE my goodness. I could not have explained my own feelings any better. This is exactly my feeling... I dont even like to vape too much around kids because I don't want them to think it is cool and they should do it.

In the end, think many many parents know their kids smoke...not all. And some just bury their heads in the sand about it. But I do think its a parents right if not responsibility, if vaping is going to stop the child from smoking . then the parents should be the ones to decide NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
But I am actually fine with age restrictions.
Here is why.
It stops them from buying it because it is cool.
A child who is able to find a way to get cigarettes illegally and enough to be ADDICTED is going to be able to find a way to get vape products to help them quit smoking.

If the child cares enough about themselves and their health to TRULY want to vape to quit smoking, they will find a way. Albeit talking to mom or dad. A teacher, a friends parents, or even the local B and M owner etc. Children are highly resourceful in finding out ways to do stuff they are not suppose to do.

But thank you Joe for putting that so succinctly.
 

AndriaD

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Y'know, there's a huge difference between "children" and "adolescents." The terms are not synonymous.

Andria
 

VaporJoe

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Y'know, there's a huge difference between "children" and "adolescents." The terms are not synonymous.

Andria

I agree but when it comes to the "law" they are all "children" until they are 18.. Makes it look better for the publicity.
 

AndriaD

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I agree but when it comes to the "law" they are all "children" until they are 18.. Makes it look better for the publicity.

I despair of Americans, and humanity in general, truly I do. :sad:

Andria
 

Markw4mms

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Y'know, there's a huge difference between "children" and "adolescents." The terms are not synonymous.

Andria
I think that's one reason they are all called minors when it comes to legal issues. I can understand the dilemma,though. I started smoking at 12, and if I'd had a chance way back then to try vaping, I'm almost positive I'd dropped the smokes while still an adolescent. I know for a fact that kids will get their hands on cigarettes or vapes if they want it bad enough. I'm living proof of that, but I'd also never knowingly put myself in a position to be charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor.I already have enough problems in my life.
 

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I'm also torn-- after all, we know that smoking kills and that vaping is comparatively benign, so naturally I'd rather see ANYONE with a vape in their hands instead of a cigarette..... but ultimately, I believe it's a decision that belongs in the home. If parents want to set their teens up vaping, that's their decision, and should be handled quietly in a way that doesn't jeopardize the industry. Should minors be able to make direct purchases? I still say no.

As for the mention that kids don't tell their parents they smoke...... no, but as parents, isn't it a good idea to get close enough to your kids -- one or two times a week at least! -- to smell it on them!? Worked for my folks! All the cinnamon gum and hand-washing in the world didn't keep my Mom from noticing a faint aura of ashtray on me and dealing with it swiftly!

I get that it's sensitive though, because our kids watch us. This past week, my five year old came into the computer room where Joe and I vape and announced that he needed to vape too. I had to gently and as simply as I could explain why we vape, that vaping is only for adults, that no he didn't need to, and that my hope for him was that he would never need to. He seemed satisfied with that and ran off to catch an episode of Bob the Builder. Just as with many things adults do, vaping isn't intended for kids, and parenting and patient teaching are absolutely necessary.
 

BronzyIsland

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Crazy Chef, if I go to a ZERO Nicotine e-Liquid how can the FDA call my MOD/Tank/E-Liquid an END? I asked the FDA that when I called and went on a rant to them.
according to the FDA regs plain cotton is considered a tobacco product.

So consider smoking your blue jeans.
 

BronzyIsland

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btw, the vaping company NKTR makes synthetic nicotine...so their nic does not fall under these FDA regs since their nic is not derived from tobacco.
 

skt239

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In my area head shops claim the accessories are for tobacco. The way I read the regs they now fall under the deemming items.. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Copied from regs..
Currently, tobacco products unregulated by FDA are widely available and come in many
forms, including cigars, pipe tobacco, waterpipe tobacco, liquids (e-liquids) for ENDS (the most
popular of which are electronic cigarettes, but also include e-hookah, e-cigars, vape pens,
personal vaporizers, and electronic pipes), liquid nicotine that is made or derived from tobacco,
nicotine gels, and certain dissolvable tobacco products (i.e., dissolvable products that do not
currently meet the definition of "smokeless tobacco" in section 900(18) of the FD&C Act (21
U.S.C. 387(18)) because they do not contain cut, ground, powdered, or leaf tobacco and instead
contain nicotine extracted from tobacco). Upon implementation of this final rule, currently
unregulated tobacco products and future products meeting the definition of "tobacco product"
under section 201(rr) (except accessories of newly deemed tobacco products) will be subject to
chapter IX of the FD&C Act.
FDA issued a proposed deeming rule

The city we live outside of is crawling with head shops. Most, if not all there products are and always have been marketed for use with herbal products. They even sell all kinds of different weird herbs, that are made to look like a certain one, in pre-packaged bags all over the shop. I think the herb angle for businesses like @CrazyChef might be a good option, at least until the FDA gets wise.
 

midknight420

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The city we live outside of is crawling with head shops. Most, if not all there products are and always have been marketed for use with herbal products. They even sell all kinds of different weird herbs, that are made to look like a certain one, in pre-packaged bags all over the shop. I think the herb angle for businesses like @CrazyChef might be a good option, at least until the FDA gets wise.
Wise? Haha, that funny LOL

I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
 

CrazyChef

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67417323.jpg
 

BigNasty

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Remember folks these same people making these same laws are the same petulant retarded bags of shit that sat on the floor of the senate sniveling about their bill not getting through.

Funny how they sat in the 60s for civil rights and now sitting on the floor to take them away.

The FDA shit is just an end run around due process.
 

Vape7od

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Crazy Chef, if I go to a ZERO Nicotine e-Liquid how can the FDA call my MOD/Tank/E-Liquid an END? I asked the FDA that when I called and went on a rant to them.
The same thought came to my mind today while i was bitching to imaginary government officials in my head.. But for real im not sure how if we remove the nicotine from juice it can still be a regulatable tobacco product as well as the mods being used for nicotine-less juice.. I was wondering if anyone had thought off and looked into that yet.. I would gladly change from 3nic to zero if it meant things would continue being invented n innovated..it makes me sick man..

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Deucesjack

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Remember folks these same people making these same laws are the same petulant retarded bags of shit that sat on the floor of the senate sniveling about their bill not getting through.

Funny how they sat in the 60s for civil rights and now sitting on the floor to take them away.

The FDA shit is just an end run around due process.
Exactly right. If you're a vaper and you vote Democrat this year well then you're just a special kind of stupid.

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CrazyChef

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I've been known to smoke certain leafy substances using a CocaCola can many, many moons ago in my youth. I could easily do the same with tobacco. How do you think the CocaCola company would react if their cans were suddenly consider an ENDS? How about Anheuser-Busch? Miller Brewing Company?
 

BigNasty

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I've been known to smoke certain leafy substances using a CocaCola can many, many moons ago in my youth. I could easily do the same with tobacco. How do you think the CocaCola company would react if their cans were suddenly consider an ENDS? How about Anheuser-Busch? Miller Brewing Company?
Bah better ways to consume.
Your a chef you figure it out.
 

JuicyLucy

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Exactly right. If you're a vaper and you vote Democrat this year well then you're just a special kind of stupid.

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There are other places on the forum to call people names if you disagree with them Jack
 

Deucesjack

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There are other places on the forum to call people names if you disagree with them Jack
I didn't call anyone specfically here a name. If you want to be offended by what I said well then thats your choice. That's the problem with America today is everyone is looking for a chance to be offended instead of having an open discussion about the real issues. My statemnet was generic at best but none the less its one I believe in. With all the facts in front of us if you vape and bitch about the pending regs and still vote Democratic then I really don't want to hear what you have to say. Funny how other posts called people retarded bags of shit but you didnt have a problem with that.

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JuicyLucy

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I didn't call anyone specfically here a name. If you want to be offended by what I said well then thats your choice. That's the problem with America today is everyone is looking for a chance to be offended. My statemnet was generic at best but none the less its one I believe in. With all the facts in front of us if you vape and bitch about the pending regs and still vote Democratic then I really don't want to hear what you have to say. Funny how other posts called people retarded bags of shit but you didnt have a problem with that.

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Sorry I have to agree with @Deucesjack 100%.
If you vote for the same folk who are pushing to strip due processes away then the leveling of mental defect is just off the fucking charts.
Like seriously consider not voting ever.


The OP asked this not turn into a political bickering post at the very beginning is why :)
 

BigNasty

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Not bickering but pointing out the glaring reality of what we as vapers face.
If you think they are not tied together closely on the same gaggle of freedom hating people just look at the stuff they try and pass or ram down our throats as to what is in our best interests.
 

AndriaD

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What's really funny is that I read on Twitter today that the Dems are now endorsing more legalization of that other stuff we can't mention. Which puts a lot of us between a rock and a hard place. Seriously... why can't we have both? Neither is hurting anybody, not nearly as badly as tobacco and alcohol are hurting them.

Andria
 

BigNasty

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What's really funny is that I read on Twitter today that the Dems are now endorsing more legalization of that other stuff we can't mention. Which puts a lot of us between a rock and a hard place. Seriously... why can't we have both? Neither is hurting anybody, not nearly as badly as tobacco and alcohol are hurting them.

Andria
What should scare people is that other thing was only banned because of a jackass (hurst) and his new paper empire.
It is the same stupid horse shit mentality that is pushing the FDA to ban vaping.
 

Barbara E.

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I've been known to smoke certain leafy substances using a CocaCola can many, many moons ago in my youth. I could easily do the same with tobacco. How do you think the CocaCola company would react if their cans were suddenly consider an ENDS? How about Anheuser-Busch? Miller Brewing Company?

Seriously, how is this a bad idea?

I posted the following on page 2, unfortunately right near the bottom so many people might not have seen it. (At least that's what I hope since I've gotten no input :( ). But I seriously think that dragging big companies and/or industries into this fight is a good thing to do.

Anyway, here it is again. I'd be interested in (serious) responses...

"Trying to use logic to argue against the FDA's regulations is an exercise in futility. The FDA deliberately made the laws that way and we (vapers) don't have the power or numbers to make them change. I suggest that we use the *illogic* of the regulations to prove their ridiculousness and drag in other players that feel the same way.

*Intent* is the key phrase in the regulations. If anything is intended for use in any form of e-cigarette, it's automatically a 'tobacco product', right? So let's make *everything* a 'tobacco product'.

Let's say I go into my local drug store and buy a package of cotton. I ask to speak to the manager and tell him/her that I intend to use the cotton in my vaporizer which makes it a 'tobacco product'. Then I ask if the drugstore has paid the appropriate state/federal taxes associated with 'tobacco products' and is conforming to all the 'tobacco product' laws. Of course the manager will think I'm crazy but I point out that the FDA set the rules and I am a law-abiding citizen (;)) who only wants to make sure everyone complies with the law. Etc., etc., etc.

Now multiply this by thousands. Maybe CASAA or SFATA can have lawyers send letters to the drugstore pointing out cotton is a potential 'tobacco product' and that the drugstore should be asking their customers how they plan to use the cotton. Maybe point out the applicable state laws they should be following for these products.

I know this is ridiculous - that's the point. But now we'd have drugstores all on our side protesting that cotton is not a 'tobacco product'.

Now carry it further. Grocery stores carry flavorings. WalMart carries VG. Home Depot carries wire and wood (some people make mods from wood). Beauty supply stores carry rayon. The list goes on and on. Heck, anything with a usb port can supply power. I could conceivably go to an auto dealer and say that my husband hates the smell of my vape so I'm buying this car simply to park in the yard and sit in and vape in air-conditioned comfort.

Yes, it's totally off the wall. But 'logic' isn't getting us anywhere because the FDA isn't operating 'logically'. The beauty of this is that we get others (big businesses) on our side protesting the regulations. And it doesn't require lawsuits by vapers or vaping organization - all it requires is concerned citizens (us) expressing our determination that *everyone* abides by the law. ;)

Will this solve every problem? No, but if enough big companies protest, the FDA would be forced to clarify exactly what is and what is not covered by their regulations. *Intent* won't work. They'd probably try to get around the whole mess by saying their laws only apply to anything *marketed* as an e-cig and/or component. And, as we all know, everything we use can be *marketed* as something else. :D "
 

AndriaD

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Seriously, how is this a bad idea?

I posted the following on page 2, unfortunately right near the bottom so many people might not have seen it. (At least that's what I hope since I've gotten no input :( ). But I seriously think that dragging big companies and/or industries into this fight is a good thing to do.

Anyway, here it is again. I'd be interested in (serious) responses...

"Trying to use logic to argue against the FDA's regulations is an exercise in futility. The FDA deliberately made the laws that way and we (vapers) don't have the power or numbers to make them change. I suggest that we use the *illogic* of the regulations to prove their ridiculousness and drag in other players that feel the same way.

*Intent* is the key phrase in the regulations. If anything is intended for use in any form of e-cigarette, it's automatically a 'tobacco product', right? So let's make *everything* a 'tobacco product'.

Let's say I go into my local drug store and buy a package of cotton. I ask to speak to the manager and tell him/her that I intend to use the cotton in my vaporizer which makes it a 'tobacco product'. Then I ask if the drugstore has paid the appropriate state/federal taxes associated with 'tobacco products' and is conforming to all the 'tobacco product' laws. Of course the manager will think I'm crazy but I point out that the FDA set the rules and I am a law-abiding citizen (;)) who only wants to make sure everyone complies with the law. Etc., etc., etc.

Now multiply this by thousands. Maybe CASAA or SFATA can have lawyers send letters to the drugstore pointing out cotton is a potential 'tobacco product' and that the drugstore should be asking their customers how they plan to use the cotton. Maybe point out the applicable state laws they should be following for these products.

I know this is ridiculous - that's the point. But now we'd have drugstores all on our side protesting that cotton is not a 'tobacco product'.

Now carry it further. Grocery stores carry flavorings. WalMart carries VG. Home Depot carries wire and wood (some people make mods from wood). Beauty supply stores carry rayon. The list goes on and on. Heck, anything with a usb port can supply power. I could conceivably go to an auto dealer and say that my husband hates the smell of my vape so I'm buying this car simply to park in the yard and sit in and vape in air-conditioned comfort.

Yes, it's totally off the wall. But 'logic' isn't getting us anywhere because the FDA isn't operating 'logically'. The beauty of this is that we get others (big businesses) on our side protesting the regulations. And it doesn't require lawsuits by vapers or vaping organization - all it requires is concerned citizens (us) expressing our determination that *everyone* abides by the law. ;)

Will this solve every problem? No, but if enough big companies protest, the FDA would be forced to clarify exactly what is and what is not covered by their regulations. *Intent* won't work. They'd probably try to get around the whole mess by saying their laws only apply to anything *marketed* as an e-cig and/or component. And, as we all know, everything we use can be *marketed* as something else. :D "

Well, it's brilliant... but if we can't even motivate people to join CASAA, I don't see this level of engagement being feasible. People just won't go to that much trouble. Maybe a few, but to get the kind of results we need, it would need to be everyone, all the time, raising so much hell that the FDA *had* to pay attention. I think there are maybe a few hundred people, worldwide, who are actually doing ANYTHING except bitching, moaning, and complaining. Maybe only a few dozen. The problem is because of how smokers have been marginalized thru the last couple decades; we grew accustomed to our opinions not counting to anyone, so we don't bother saying anything, since no one is listening. In fact, a lot of us became co-conspirators in our oppression, joining the other camp on the subject of "2nd hand smoke."

Andria
 

midknight420

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Seriously, how is this a bad idea?

I posted the following on page 2, unfortunately right near the bottom so many people might not have seen it. (At least that's what I hope since I've gotten no input :( ). But I seriously think that dragging big companies and/or industries into this fight is a good thing to do.

Anyway, here it is again. I'd be interested in (serious) responses...

"Trying to use logic to argue against the FDA's regulations is an exercise in futility. The FDA deliberately made the laws that way and we (vapers) don't have the power or numbers to make them change. I suggest that we use the *illogic* of the regulations to prove their ridiculousness and drag in other players that feel the same way.

*Intent* is the key phrase in the regulations. If anything is intended for use in any form of e-cigarette, it's automatically a 'tobacco product', right? So let's make *everything* a 'tobacco product'.

Let's say I go into my local drug store and buy a package of cotton. I ask to speak to the manager and tell him/her that I intend to use the cotton in my vaporizer which makes it a 'tobacco product'. Then I ask if the drugstore has paid the appropriate state/federal taxes associated with 'tobacco products' and is conforming to all the 'tobacco product' laws. Of course the manager will think I'm crazy but I point out that the FDA set the rules and I am a law-abiding citizen (;)) who only wants to make sure everyone complies with the law. Etc., etc., etc.

Now multiply this by thousands. Maybe CASAA or SFATA can have lawyers send letters to the drugstore pointing out cotton is a potential 'tobacco product' and that the drugstore should be asking their customers how they plan to use the cotton. Maybe point out the applicable state laws they should be following for these products.

I know this is ridiculous - that's the point. But now we'd have drugstores all on our side protesting that cotton is not a 'tobacco product'.

Now carry it further. Grocery stores carry flavorings. WalMart carries VG. Home Depot carries wire and wood (some people make mods from wood). Beauty supply stores carry rayon. The list goes on and on. Heck, anything with a usb port can supply power. I could conceivably go to an auto dealer and say that my husband hates the smell of my vape so I'm buying this car simply to park in the yard and sit in and vape in air-conditioned comfort.

Yes, it's totally off the wall. But 'logic' isn't getting us anywhere because the FDA isn't operating 'logically'. The beauty of this is that we get others (big businesses) on our side protesting the regulations. And it doesn't require lawsuits by vapers or vaping organization - all it requires is concerned citizens (us) expressing our determination that *everyone* abides by the law. ;)

Will this solve every problem? No, but if enough big companies protest, the FDA would be forced to clarify exactly what is and what is not covered by their regulations. *Intent* won't work. They'd probably try to get around the whole mess by saying their laws only apply to anything *marketed* as an e-cig and/or component. And, as we all know, everything we use can be *marketed* as something else. :D "
SO going to do this. Thank you for this brilliant post. Spread the word. We could even get nonvapers to do it. See what kind of trouble we can stir up

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Barbara E.

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We don't actually need a lot of people. Let's say I go into CVS for cotton (not to pick on CVS but they're very close to me). Ok, I do the whole bit, talking with the manager, etc. *NOW* CASAA and/or SFATA has the ammunition to have the lawyers write a nice, legal letter to the CVS Corporation's legal department saying that 'it has come to our attention that on this date, etc. etc.'.

There only has to be one standard legal letter (with fifty variations for the fifty different state laws). And we'd really only need *one* person for each corporation in each state.

Now imagine CVS Corporation getting hit with fifty legal different (but similar) letters informing them of the precautions they need to take to determine whether or not certain items are 'tobacco products' and what forms, etc. they need to complete/should have completed to comply with federal and their state laws.

(For example, here in South Carolina, the person bringing the 'tobacco product' into SC initially has to fill out a form and pay a tax. If the item ultimately is not used as a 'tobacco product', the importer can fill out another form to get their money back. (This was originally designed for cases where the cigarettes were destroyed somehow but it would still work here.) So - technically - it seems that CVS would have to fill out the initial form when they bring the cotton in, then somehow determine how the buyer 'intends' to use the product, then either collect the appropriate tax from the buyer or fill out the second form to get their money back. It would be a nightmare.)

At the same time, CASAA/SFATA can start informing the various state governments that certain corporations aren't complying with the law (paying the state taxes). In many states you have to have a 'tobacco license' to sell 'tobacco products'. What about age restrictions? The list goes on.

And I suspect we could get a fair amount of publicity all laughing at the ridiculousness (is that a word?) of the FDA trying to claim x/y/z is a 'tobacco product' merely because of 'intent'.
 

Tuluum

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One workaround for the coils specifically is to market them as inductors for electronic circuits.

Interestingly, some of the techniques may legitimately provide superior, or unique, behaviors in everything from timing circuits to speaker crossovers.

The build deck could then be related as an easy way to test out different circuit characteristics. What's neat is that they may actually be viable in all of these functions!

I do have the equipment, etc. to actually start putting real life numbers to these things, but my work might be a bit slow out of necessity. I also can't build too advanced of coils for the same health reasons. My thought though is there might be someone with similar knowledge and equipment if this path is explored.
 

AndriaD

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We don't actually need a lot of people. Let's say I go into CVS for cotton (not to pick on CVS but they're very close to me). Ok, I do the whole bit, talking with the manager, etc. *NOW* CASAA and/or SFATA has the ammunition to have the lawyers write a nice, legal letter to the CVS Corporation's legal department saying that 'it has come to our attention that on this date, etc. etc.'.

There only has to be one standard legal letter (with fifty variations for the fifty different state laws). And we'd really only need *one* person for each corporation in each state.

Now imagine CVS Corporation getting hit with fifty legal different (but similar) letters informing them of the precautions they need to take to determine whether or not certain items are 'tobacco products' and what forms, etc. they need to complete/should have completed to comply with federal and their state laws.

(For example, here in South Carolina, the person bringing the 'tobacco product' into SC initially has to fill out a form and pay a tax. If the item ultimately is not used as a 'tobacco product', the importer can fill out another form to get their money back. (This was originally designed for cases where the cigarettes were destroyed somehow but it would still work here.) So - technically - it seems that CVS would have to fill out the initial form when they bring the cotton in, then somehow determine how the buyer 'intends' to use the product, then either collect the appropriate tax from the buyer or fill out the second form to get their money back. It would be a nightmare.)

At the same time, CASAA/SFATA can start informing the various state governments that certain corporations aren't complying with the law (paying the state taxes). In many states you have to have a 'tobacco license' to sell 'tobacco products'. What about age restrictions? The list goes on.

And I suspect we could get a fair amount of publicity all laughing at the ridiculousness (is that a word?) of the FDA trying to claim x/y/z is a 'tobacco product' merely because of 'intent'.

Well. Just TRY finding a mgr in a Walmart. If I knew how to do that, I'd have protested a LOT of stuff, like them no longer carrying stuff that's good and useful. Or employees who don't do their jobs, stocking shelves. Or... geez, a million things. Which is probably why they hide.

I really don't have time or patience for all that. I'm just hoping that Sen Johnson can force some sanity out of the FDA nitwits. Or, failing that, the law courts, when all these lawsuits actually have their "day in court."

Andria
 

Barbara E.

VU Donator
Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Unlisted Vendor
Being able to find or not find a WalMart manager is a side issue. It doesn't matter.

This doesn't require a bunch of people nor a lot of time. If SFATA/CASAA came up with a nice legal letter and sent it to all these companies pointing out that batteries, wire, cotton, computers, etc. etc. will soon potentially be 'tobacco products', I bet that would get some attention right there. Let those big companies use their lobbyists to pressure the FDA.
 

ggvaper

Member For 4 Years
As much as I am FOR regulation in the vaping industry, the FDA has obviously gome way overboard in their decisions regarding the regulations concerning the the whole of our industry, and their definitions of what constitutes a regulatable ENDS component.

As I mentioned above, I believe there should be reasonable regulations - no sales to minors being my main concern, as well as end user caution statements on the packaging of products that can be dangerous if used improperly (hybrid series mech mods, for example). But... Have they lost their freaking minds?!?!?

At any rate... Most of you already know that I own a custom coil business. According to the FDA, coils (which are, in their simplest form, just springs) are considered part of the ENDS components and are subject to regulation.

This is absurd.

So...

This thread is a place for all who are unjustifiably being regulated by what the FDA considers to be an ENDS component, and what we can do about it.

What are your thoughts, and what have you learned about loopholes that will positively affect our businesses?
your coils are part of my earings , necklaces , and bracelets..
 

SteveS45

Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
CVS Stopped selling cigarettes a very long time ago and I am not sure is they even sell the cessation products any longer. Part of their new CVS Health Image.
 
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Rossum

Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
CVS Stopped selling cigarettes a very long time ago and I am not sure is they even sell the cessation products any longer. Part of their new CVS Health Image.
They still sell BP's gums, lozenges, and patches.
 

saytar

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
What should scare people is that other thing was only banned because of a jackass (hurst) and his new paper empire.
It is the same stupid horse shit mentality that is pushing the FDA to ban vaping.

Then use their same stupidity against them..............call all the vape products Muslim peace pipes and accessories...the Dems will fight to protect the "right" of Muslims to buy and vape their "Peace Pipes".....by golly gotta give them Muslim products a pass, just cause they be for Muslims...........
Down with the racist FDA!
 

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