Become a Patron!

rayon cellucotton?

Saddletramp1200

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Rayon is made with a batch of nasty stuff, the theory of safety for wicking is that all these chemicals are removed in the processing for the end result. I just don't know about that, nobody has tested the Rayon for chemical residues left over, that I could find, or quantify what levels are meaningul or not.
You can find ton of tree-hugger sites that tell you never to wear the stuff because it will make you sick....likely over zealous....or they could be hyper sensitive, or convinced themselves they are hyper sensitive.
http://www.ilo.org/oshenc/part-xiv/textile-goods-industry/item/883-viscose-rayon That is Cellucotton
Rats inhaling Rayon in 1969 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00039896.1969.10666904#preview
MSDS on Rayon. http://www.carbatec.com.au/pdf/manual/MSDS RAYON.pdf Says INCOMPATIBILITY WITH: Avoid contact with strong oxidants, perchloric acids, nitrates. Does that mean anything to vaping, I don't know. That MSDS is different that the one I saw circulating around.

Boiling is not going to remove the chemicals, it might lesson them, or it might just fuse them in, I have not idea. The Chines dog chicken Jerky snacks that killed thousand of dogs, was Irradiated (real Nuclear Nuking, not microwave nuking), so all the living things virus and bacteria were killed, but the chemicals remained.

Does Rayon taste all that much better....than something that is not manufactured with 10 toxic chemicals. Don't know, and I won't.

Rayon is a calculated risk to try, I am pretty sure I will opt out of the beta tester program.
It might be totally safe, but that weird taste on the first hits by some reviewers, means some nasty whatevers are being given off. Its not burning rubber grommets they are tasting.


I looked into the green version of Rayon, which is Lyocell or brand name Tencel, it definitely uses way less toxic stuff in the manufacturing, but you end up with nano-fibers. Sounds great Nano is a buzzword. But the problem with this alternative to Rayon is Nano stuff is so small, you can not get it out if it goes into something.....like a Cell of your body in your lungs. Nano so small it enters Cells, and I am sure that Nano whatever, is going to be carried up in steam. After how long or does it matter.....to me it doesn't I won't vape anything Nano-particle sized, the research will be in in about 10 more years.
But Nano does kill factory workers in China, from inhalation, and the Lyocell Rayon is the near same size of Nano-ness. Is that science, no, the lab-coats will need to start killing some rats, when they get funding and figure out how to test the Nano stuff on animals without effecting the lab workers.....and that Nano stuff is going to fly right through a Lab-worker respirator.

These two links combined are enough for me to say no to Lyocell Rayon

http://www.motleygreen.com/beta/article-details-nano-texties-facts-behind-the-fabric-58
http://nano.foe.org.au/node/350
Great post! Even so vaping with Rayon has to be better than smoking.
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Great post! Even so vaping with Rayon has to be better than smoking.
Thanks, I need to find out how they sterilize the Rayon. I think its going to be non-toxic because they use the swabs for cheek swabs for DNA testing. So if it had bad chemicals, that would probably mess up the DNA stuff.
I want to see some more taste testing on Rayon before I try and figure a way that I convince myself to try it.
 

Superjeep

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years

First off your linking some stuff that has nothing to do with the type of cellucotton most of us are using. This is not directed at you but I want to say again there are many types of rayon and cellucotton should not be confused with rayon clothes. Secondly that "taste" your talking about happens with every type of organic wicking material or virtually every wick you break in. Its not a taste per se its almost a lack of taste or a sterile-ish tone as others have pointed out like sucking on a sock or t-shirt.

I am all for safety but misinformation helps no one. Could it be bad for us? Sure and all the flavorig we vape tons of every day could be just as bad because none of those have been tested for inhalation either. Not a single one. We vape food flavorings. Hell some of the stuff we vape was probably made for perfume if we are being honest. USDA approved for consumption.

I see tons of people screaming "organic!" and "natural!" but I hate to break it to those people but just because its organic and natural does not mean they did not use any chemicals in the process. More than half the "organic" cotton we use had chemicals sprayed on them before the cotton was even picked to remove the cotton leaves so the machines can harvest them. Organic in relation to the products we use just means they did not use chemical fertilizer and pesticide to grow said natural product. You think those cotton pads just magically got formed to that very uniform shape and density?

Hemp and a lot of other natural fibers are sometimes de-gummed using stuff that could or could not be safe to vape. My point is about the only thing we do not take a risk on with vaping is the PG, VG and the extracted nic and even that is a risk for some who are allergic or have medical issues. Unfortunately we are guinea pigs but I made the calculated decision that I think vaping is better for me than smoking and unfortunately vaping was the only thing that worked for me to quit smoking.

I respect your veiws on the cellucotton make no mistake. You have the right to voice your opinion like everyone else. All I can say is I have used it for well over a month now with no ill effects and I was using cotton before that. I think it wicks much better and last about 4-5 times longer before I have to change it. I will take you up on trying that medical rayon cotton ball though thank you for the link. I am interested to see how it stacks up to what I am using.
 

Jgoss

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
You know, I love hearing people talk about their "organic" products, cotton included. I come from small town Illinois, where farming is big business and there is corn and soy beans as far as the eye can see. Those organic products are often time grown right next to the non-organic ones, and chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides are sprayed on the crops in the next field. The amount of chemical run off, and over-spray makes any thought of "organic" just silly. Now, there might be some truly organic products, but those are not the norm. You would have to isolate your crop by at least half a mile in all directions to avoid chemical contamination, and you would still get small amounts in the dust and particulate that settles on the crops. Crazy thing is, organic crops aren't processed like normal ones, and that means all that extra crap that has settled on them, is still there when you get the product. And think about this. Almost every animal you have ever eaten over the course of your entire life has been fed grain that has been contaminated with chemical agents. So, for my part, organic is just a way to sell products to the uninformed. Now that I have made you question your oh so yummy chemical tainted food, on to rayon! lol

I purchased some rayon a couple weeks ago, and have been using it exclusively. I don't see it melting at all, even with coils as low as .2 ohms. I find that it has little taste, wicks better than cotton, and burns less than cotton. The burning is what seems to be the most important thing to me. Even when you don't let your cotton go dry, you still have minor burning right inside the coil. I don't really experience this with the rayon. It may be that it has a higher burning point, or that it wicks better which leads to less burning.
 

Superjeep

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Cellucotton actually wicks while cotton is more of a sponge I have found. I think of cotton as sort of a tank within a tank. It will absorb, swell and hold the juice where the cellucotton simply wicks it up and does not store it and in fact the wick seems to almost shrink ever so slightly as it breaks in so you really have to jam it in the coil to choke it off. Funny part is I have had a couple builds where it the cellucotton actually wicks to good lol.

I tend to take long, slower drags on my tanks so I would get what you had where it would ever so slightly burn or gunk right where the coil meets wick which tells me I was simply outpacing the absorption of the cotton at the point of contact. I still like cotton but for my needs the rayon just seems to keep up in actual wicking. I have not had one wick yet of cellucotton that was actually black at the point of contact under a coil. The most I have seen is a slight brown stain but that tanks vapes a pretty dark tobacco juice.
 

RedDirtTrooper

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I have to wonder, at the point when my cotton wicks would normally be turning black, fading to dark brown away from the coil, my rayon is still white. That to me would imply that the cotton is burning up, which would mean carcinogens are being produced. Since I started using rayon, I have honestly wondered if cotton isn't LESS safe than it, based on that alone.
 

Superjeep

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I dont think its really burning or atleast not for me but it does gunk up which means its drying out enough at points to heat up enough to burn the juice slightly. Remember most if not all of these flavorings have some form of sweetener or what not so what your seeing is kinda caramelization more or less as the sugars start to burn.

Im not anti cotton and I still have a few in builds I just prefer cellucotton in most builds and have found so far no adverse health reactions to it. Im pro most popular wick material if it works for what you do.
 

bsoplinger

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Jury's out for me. Reading about the manufacturing process is kinda scary. And since it's not meant for "consumption" would seem to me the manufacturer wouldn't be required to make sure all the toxins are totally rinsed out before boxing it up for sale.
By this logic then any form of cotton shouldn't be used either because it is not meant for "consumption" either so any manufacturer wouldn't be required to make sure all the pesticides and toxins are totally rinsed out before boxing for sale. And since regular silica wick can loose micro fibers you wouldn't be using that either. So what wicking material do you use?

Apologies to all for injecting logic into the discussion ;)

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Purple Tapatalk 2
 

Fishee

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Well perhaps I see myself as being fortunate that the health concerns and/or risks have never been an issue for me.

I did not quite smoking cigarettes because I was worried about my health. I quit because they smell like shit and I was tired of smelling that shit on my clothes and person.

Vaping, for me, has become more than a means of simply nicotine delivery. It is a hobby, a life style, a subculture that I enjoy being a part of. It's about the experimenting, the flavors the coils builds, the clouds, technology advancing, and the vaper's ingenuity.

For those folks that made the switch for health reasons I commend them and wish them a long and healthy tobacco free life. I think the health benefits of vaping are amazing and has and will enhanced the lives of thousands maybe millions of people.

Do I want to be vaping some bathtub e-liquid? Hell no. I like to know what is in my juice an that's why I diy. I like High quality vape liquid and high end mods. I also like cheap stuff that works great. I;m not reckless when it comes to vaping and I don;t cut corners. And I won't do business with any vendor that is reckless and cuts corners. Vaping should be done safely.

Convince me that cotton or silica or any other wicking medium is greatly safer than rayon and that will give me something to consider.
But as of right now I see no evidence that any other wicking medium is substantially safer or even minimally safer than the rayon.

Take a nice dirty dry hit off your cotton and then one off your rayon and come back and tell me witch one felt like the safer thing to be burning and inhaling.

@tombaker . At least you're putting forth the effort to do some research. And I appreciate what seems to be a humble response to the rayon concerns. Thanks for sharing what you found.:cool:
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
and SuperJeep's posts above
Thanks for your comments. My post included a bunch of "I don't knows" which you both recognized. I posted the links to show you what I did and how far I got.

I started out by thinking I would be clever, and find the Lyocell would be better. I am convinced in my fear of Nano Particles, to skip that. But when I found the Medical Grade Rayon, both Sterile and Non-Sterile, and knowing they use it for DNA, I am pretty much convinced I can find out enough about how clean the Rayon is, and how it was cleaned, to give it a try.

Now I watch the PBusardo video, and it looks like Japanese cotton is equal to Rayon, so I will take that route. Then there is something called Cotton Bacon, which Sun-Vapers in Southern California says is better than Japanese cotton. This story does not end here. I think Rayon is safe provided I can verify how it was cleaned, or if it was even cleaned after manufacturing.
The link I found on the vendor of Medical Grade Rayon, was hard to find, most were selling it cases of 100, not sold individually.

Also PBusardo did a review of Rayon and Japanese cotton, hemp, and standard organic cotton.
 

Superjeep

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
While I have no proof I would almost guarantee cellucotton is just as clean as regular cotton. There is no way they wouldnt be because cellucotton was developed as a direct replacement for cotton when cotton prices skyrocketed a while back and most of the applications for it are skin and oral use related. I do admire your thoroughness Tom and would love to hear finding if you find more info on it.

I use cellucotton for one reason and one reason only which is it lasts about 3-4 times longer than cotton and for a primary tank user like myself including pain in the ass to build ithaka's I covet not having to change my wicks every 3 days which I needed to with all of the different cotton I tried. I just today switched wicks on a ithaka that has been running for about a month and frankly the taste and wicking were still good I just figured it was time to change it to be safe.

I say buy both and try them both out. You need to take Phils wicking test with a grain of salt also as its kinda flaky(not a knock on Phil it just is what it is). Most wicks do not start really wicking until they are wet then in essence the wick acts as a straw as the coils uses the juice its pulled through the wick. The only real world test I can think of would be to like build a dripper and leave the cap off with a long tail wet with clear juice then dipping it in a colored juice and fire it.
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
While I have no proof I would almost guarantee cellucotton is just as clean as regular cotton. There is no way they wouldnt be because cellucotton was developed as a direct replacement for cotton when cotton prices skyrocketed a while back and most of the applications for it are skin and oral use related. I do admire your thoroughness Tom and would love to hear finding if you find more info on it.

I use cellucotton for one reason and one reason only which is it lasts about 3-4 times longer than cotton and for a primary tank user like myself including pain in the ass to build ithaka's I covet not having to change my wicks every 3 days which I needed to with all of the different cotton I tried. I just today switched wicks on a ithaka that has been running for about a month and frankly the taste and wicking were still good I just figured it was time to change it to be safe.

I say buy both and try them both out. You need to take Phils wicking test with a grain of salt also as its kinda flaky(not a knock on Phil it just is what it is). Most wicks do not start really wicking until they are wet then in essence the wick acts as a straw as the coils uses the juice its pulled through the wick. The only real world test I can think of would be to like build a dripper and leave the cap off with a long tail wet with clear juice then dipping it in a colored juice and fire it.
My concern on Rayon has been that I know for certain it uses a ton of chemicals when its made. How many remain is what I was trying to figure out. I think I can confirm will calling companies who make the medical stuff how clean the end product will be. The Cellucotton is just generic stuff, the medical stuff has to be made to some sort of spec or criteria.

On the positive side for CelluCotton possibly being good enough already.
The reason the viscose process is thought to be detrimental to the environment is based on the process chemicals used. Though sodium hydroxide is routinely used in the processing of organic cotton, and is approved by the Global Organic Textile Standard (GOTS), carbon disulfide can cause nervous system damage with chronic exposure. And that “chemical bath” to harden the threads? Sulfuric acid. But these chemicals do not remain as a residue on the fibers – the proof of this is that almost all of the viscose produced can be (and often is) Oeko Tex certified (which certifies that the finished fiber has been tested for any chemicals which may be harmful to a person’s health and contains no trace of these chemicals.) https://oecotextiles.wordpress.com/category/fibers/viscose/
OekoTex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oeko-tex_standard

Maybe Gramham's Cellucotton has this certification already. Or maybe not, because its being used as cotton for beauty stores. If its not on the box, they can probably be asked. Or OekoTex.

I am at the point where I think that Rayon can be safe of the left over residues from Manufacturing. Which brand is best is where I am at.
I think the medical grade stuff MUST be residue free, because chemicals would screw up DNA testing, and they use it for cheek swabs.
If I owned a store and was going to start reselling Rayon, I would be buying the medical stuff, and I would put in a call to the manufacturer to find out what criteria they use.

But I don't have store, and my looking into it is going to be ending for a while, as I plan on trying Cotton Bacon, and or Japanese Cotton first.
The cotton bacon stuff is most interesting because it seems from the reviews I watched on youtube, it basically had all the stuff you want for vaping done to it, as if Biff down the street had a special home brew for cotton......I will probably ask Biff to sell me some, figuring Biff was way too into the cotton in the first place, but at least I know that I can just forget about the details and vape it.
 
Last edited:

Roger Schaeffer

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I am planing to try rayon. I agree that well saturated wicks don't burn. My only concern with rayon it this- does soaking it PG/VG dissolve[for lack of a better word] any any of the chemical residues left in a wicking material like rayon that has been manufactured with a chemical process? If it does then those dissolved chemicals would be part of the vapor. I mean we use Organic cotton because it has not been whitened with bleach and grown with pesticides,right?
2 mins · Like
 

VapedCrusader

Custard Junkie
Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
While I have no proof I would almost guarantee cellucotton is just as clean as regular cotton. There is no way they wouldnt be because cellucotton was developed as a direct replacement for cotton when cotton prices skyrocketed a while back and most of the applications for it are skin and oral use related. I do admire your thoroughness Tom and would love to hear finding if you find more info on it.

I use cellucotton for one reason and one reason only which is it lasts about 3-4 times longer than cotton and for a primary tank user like myself including pain in the ass to build ithaka's I covet not having to change my wicks every 3 days which I needed to with all of the different cotton I tried. I just today switched wicks on a ithaka that has been running for about a month and frankly the taste and wicking were still good I just figured it was time to change it to be safe.

I say buy both and try them both out. You need to take Phils wicking test with a grain of salt also as its kinda flaky(not a knock on Phil it just is what it is). Most wicks do not start really wicking until they are wet then in essence the wick acts as a straw as the coils uses the juice its pulled through the wick. The only real world test I can think of would be to like build a dripper and leave the cap off with a long tail wet with clear juice then dipping it in a colored juice and fire it.

I got some of that cotton bacon.. not impressed at all.. it leaves a weird taste .. granted I only tried it with my vanilla custard so I will have to see if I get the same weird taste with a different juice.. but rayon is 100x better than that stuff.. Even my sterile cotton balls from CVS tasted better than the cotton bacon
 

Superjeep

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I am planing to try rayon. I agree that well saturated wicks don't burn. My only concern with rayon it this- does soaking it PG/VG dissolve[for lack of a better word] any any of the chemical residues left in a wicking material like rayon that has been manufactured with a chemical process? If it does then those dissolved chemicals would be part of the vapor. I mean we use Organic cotton because it has not been whitened with bleach and grown with pesticides,right?
2 mins · Like

It is my opinion from the stuff I have read(so take that for what it is worth) researching cellucotton that the chemicals used to make it or bind it are sorta like alcohol and acetone not in chemical make up but that they evaporate and then it goes through a cleaning process to make sure any residue is removed. Tom linked those medical cellucotton balls if you really wanna really make sure. I simply do not know anyone that has had a bad reaction to it. If there was chemical residue a simple burn test usually shows it but it burns clean almost exactly like cotton does not to say thats a 100% fool proof method but cellucotton for the last 2 months has been put through its paces with no ill effects so far.

On the cotton thing I posted some stuff earlier but organic simply means it was grown using no man made chemicals or fertilizer. Even about half of all organic cotton plants are sprayed with a chemical that make the plant drop its leaves so the machines can pick it. Most cotton balls even organic are whitened. The KGD pads claim to be organic and untreated in any way but its hard for me to believe they got them that white and in that very uniform pad form without using something.

Bottom line is there is a certain amount of risk with everything we do vape wise so just choose something you are comfortable with. You really can not go wrong between cotton or cellucotton I just choose rayon cuz it lasts longer.
 

Roger Schaeffer

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
MY KGD pads are not nearly as white as my Maxim Hygiene Organic Cotton Balls. Organic Cotton is most commonly whitened with Hydrogen Peroxide. Use can use hydrogen peroxide as a mouthwash.
Using hydrogen peroxide as mouthwash is simple: just swish some 1% to 3% hydrogen peroxide around in your mouth, then spit it out. Like you'd do with any kind of mouthwash, right?And substances are easily absorbed into the bloodstream by the gums [nicotine gum for example].Course that's not the same as inhaling any hydrogen peroxide[if there is any residue]into your lungs. Sometimes I just have to go with my gut feeling. I am going to pass on Rayon. Might try Seacell, ReadyxWick, but I am pretty satisfied with cotton for now




http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag468/harleshouse/cotton_zps4efb8600.jpg









cotton_zps4efb8600.jpg
 

RoofMonkey911

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Been using Rayon in most of my devices and I'm loving it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Saddletramp1200

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Attys have their own personality. I have found. Some like some builds, not others. That is the diversity of this wonderful hobby. Build it! Till YOU like it!
 

Fad

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I`ve also had some good results with Rayon, it seems to hold up better than cotton over time.

The Delasco balls are equivalent in use to the Graham`s I found - but the Graham`s rope has the edge for ease of use (being brushed)

Rayon Tops are a nightmare, like someone got an old backcombed nylon wig from the 60`s and scrunched it up in a bag - not for me.
 

Saddletramp1200

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I actually know what your talking about. I am thinking about hiring a Translator to speak for me as I am not understood by the younger crowd. They understand me fine when I sign their paycheck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fad

Jeffrey Goff

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I just got some cellucotton not sure how I feel about it., it gives crazy throat hit and nic hit, I'm not sure if it's completely safe, there are a lot of people saying it is, and just as many saying it's not, that makes me feel a little uneasy. It is easy to work with, kinda makes me feel a little funny I'm not sure if just the nic hit or what, so I dripped some zero and this effect was less so... This is the kind from Sally's I'm using. I'm gonna keep experimenting with it
 

Galaxyrider

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I just got this stuff yesterday and so far i like it better than organic cotton. it comes in 500 ft boxes for just over ten dollars and its easier to use than cotton because its all stranded already in one piece. It is made of rayon instead of cotton and gives a even cleaner taste and soaks up juice much quicker. has anybody else had any experience with this stuff yet? If you havent then definitely check it out. It can be found in most beauty supply stores like sally's. I want to know if most other people prefer it over cotton after giving it a try?
I have a good friend that owns a vape shop.. he was kind enough to give me some to try.. I really wasn't impressed. I'll stick to my cotton for now, but when my DNA 30 gets here, we'll give it another go.
 

Real Extract in Seattle

VU Vendor
VU Vendor
Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I got a rash on my chest a couple days after I started using the Kayfun wicked with rayon. After spending the last week tracking possible causes, it appears that it is the rayon wick. I could taste the cooked rayon and it became more noticeable as the days went on.

I strongly suspect that cooking the rayon within a heating coil is not safe to vape. It is not possible to use rayon as a wick without cooking it to carbon when it has a heating element wrapped around it.I re-wicked every other day as the rayon was toast - completely broken down with the heat.

I went back to the mineral wick ecowool yesterday. The rash has calmed down this AM.

There isn't anybody out there that is feeding us good reliable data on the materials we use for vaping. We should be very conservative when evaluating new materials for ourselves.
Take a look at this study:


Z Rechtsmed. 1975 Sep 5;76(1):11-26.
Acute toxicity of the combustion products from various kinds of fibers.
Yamamoto K.
Abstract
Acute toxicity of the combustion products from various fibers was evaluated in animal experiments. The materials used were cotton, gauze, acetate, rayon, polyester (PE), polychlal (PC), polyvinylidene chloride (PVDC), silk, wool, polyacrylonitrile (PAN), and modacryle (MA).

Rats, mice, and rabbits were exposed to gases released from these materials, heated with an electric heater.
In experiments with rabbits animals inhaled gases through a tracheal cannula under urethane narcosis. As indices for toxicity, the time at which animals were impaired severely, was used in rat experiments while the death time was used in experiments with rabbits and mice. The concentrations of O2 and CO in the exposure room were determined continuously, blood COHb and cyanide values were also estimated. Gases from fibers containing nitrogen impaired severely and killed the animals earlier than any other materials. Blood analyses revealed the presence of high values of cyanide in PAN, MA, and silk experiments. HCN was considered to be responsible for the high toxicity of gases from these materials. In the case of wool, despite of high toxicity of its combustion products, blood cyanide and COHb values were not very high. Gases from cotton, gauze, and rayon impaired severely and killed the animals relatively early in the exposure period. Toxicity of combustion products from these materials was attributable to CO on the basis of gas and blood analyses. Acute toxicity of PE and acetate gases, being less than that of cotton, gauze, rayon under the present experimental conditions, was explained mainly by CO. Neither severe impairment nor death occurred during exposure in PC and PVDC experiments.

PMID:
1217203
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
extracted from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1217203
 
Last edited:

bsoplinger

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
If you're burning up your wick, regardless of material, you're doing something wrong. The whole point of the wick is to supply e-liquid to the coil to be vaporized. So liquid is supposed to be vaporized not the wick.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Purple Tapatalk 2
 

chickenmonkey

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Mine never gets burnt.( I change it out every 3 tank fills because I like to clean and dry it thoroughly, dry burn and rewick. For bug and mold prevention. Keep it all very clean.
 

havok333

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Mine never gets burnt.( I change it out every 3 tank fills because I like to clean and dry it thoroughly, dry burn and rewick. For bug and mold prevention. Keep it all very clean.
Same here. I have to rewick because the coils get so gunked up over a couple days heavy use. Wicks always come out nearly pristine, and thats at 50+ watts.
 

chickenmonkey

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Same here. I have to rewick because the coils get so gunked up over a couple days heavy use. Wicks always come out nearly pristine, and thats at 50+ watts.
Dang that's hot. The only time I tried 50 watts. It did burn. Pah!
 

havok333

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Dang that's hot. The only time I tried 50 watts. It did burn. Pah!
Yeah I do subohm pretty good on mechs, but for like 2 seconds max. Just have to get the right amount of wick to keep the coils well saturated.
 

chickenmonkey

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
The lowest ohm build I made was 0.4 dual coil. I didn't like it. Seemed to sacrifice flavour. I may try again one day.
 

Jeffrey Goff

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
You guys sure said it, when I read his post I was like what the hell smoking wicking material of any kind probably isn't good for you lol, that guy should just stick to clearos before he kills himself.
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
If you're burning up your wick, regardless of material, you're doing something wrong. The whole point of the wick is to supply e-liquid to the coil to be vaporized. So liquid is supposed to be vaporized not the wick.
Which is why Silica wicks are good. They don't burn. Heard someone on a show saying that after about an hour of crappy and then marginal vaping, the Rayon then really started to taste fantastic.
So whatever was being burnt off the Rayon was crap and tasted like it. What was the crap causing the taste? Why did it go away? Its not like you are steeping the wick. Something is being out-gassed.
 

lordmage

The Sky has Fallen. the End is Here.
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Gold Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
Cellucotton not on the list or is that considered rayon?
cellucotton is a term meaning cotton like texture. the material you refer to is Rayon in a cotton like texture.
 
Here is the Rayon Manufacturing Process:

Processing:
1) A sheet of purified cellulose is steeped in sodium hydroxide (caustic soda), which produces sheets of alkali cellulose crumbs.
2) The crumbs are combined and churned with liquid carbon disulfide, which turns the mix into orange-colored crumbs known as sodium cellulose xanthate.
3) The cellulose xanthate is bathed in caustic soda, resulting in a viscose solution that looks and feels much like honey

Filament Production:
1) The viscose solution is next turned into strings of fibers. This is done by forcing the liquid through a spinneret, which works like a shower-head, into an acid bath. If staple fiber is to be produced, a large spinneret with large holes is used. If filament fiber is being produced, then a spinneret with smaller holes is used. In the acid bath, the acid coagulates and solidifies the filaments, now known as regenerated cellulose filaments.

Spinning:
1) The filaments are then put into a rapidly spinning cylinder called a Topham Box, resulting in a cake-like strings that stick to the sides of the Topham Box. The strings are then washed, bleached, rinsed, dried, and wound on cones or spools.

2) Once the fibers are sufficiently cured, they are ready for post-treatment chemicals and the various weaving processes necessary to produce the fabric. The resulting fabric can then be given any of a number of finishing treatments. These include calendaring, to control smoothness; fire resistance; pre-shrinking; water resistance; and wrinkle resistance.

Cellucotton was first developed by Kimberly Clark during WWII.

By the legal definition they are considered manufactured fibers.

I'll personally stick to my $12 bags of organic cotton from the Coop.
 

Nu2Mods

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Take a look at this study:


Z Rechtsmed. 1975 Sep 5;76(1):11-26.
Acute toxicity of the combustion products from various kinds of fibers.
Yamamoto K.
Abstract
Acute toxicity of the combustion products from various fibers was evaluated in animal experiments. The materials used were cotton, gauze, acetate, rayon, polyester (PE), polychlal (PC), polyvinylidene chloride (PVDC), silk, wool, polyacrylonitrile (PAN), and modacryle (MA).

Rats, mice, and rabbits were exposed to gases released from these materials, heated with an electric heater.
In experiments with rabbits animals inhaled gases through a tracheal cannula under urethane narcosis. As indices for toxicity, the time at which animals were impaired severely, was used in rat experiments while the death time was used in experiments with rabbits and mice. The concentrations of O2 and CO in the exposure room were determined continuously, blood COHb and cyanide values were also estimated. Gases from fibers containing nitrogen impaired severely and killed the animals earlier than any other materials. Blood analyses revealed the presence of high values of cyanide in PAN, MA, and silk experiments. HCN was considered to be responsible for the high toxicity of gases from these materials. In the case of wool, despite of high toxicity of its combustion products, blood cyanide and COHb values were not very high. Gases from cotton, gauze, and rayon impaired severely and killed the animals relatively early in the exposure period. Toxicity of combustion products from these materials was attributable to CO on the basis of gas and blood analyses. Acute toxicity of PE and acetate gases, being less than that of cotton, gauze, rayon under the present experimental conditions, was explained mainly by CO. Neither severe impairment nor death occurred during exposure in PC and PVDC experiments.

PMID:
1217203
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
extracted from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1217203

This report LOOKS impressive but pretty worthless. Where are the numbers? Where are the percentages, the volumes, the parts per million? The Time Weighted Averages? Heck, burning tortillas will kill you if given enough volume and time! It is unusual for a report of this caliber to be missing the numbers. Looking at the red lettered sentence, animals were impaired severely and killed relatively early in the exposure period. Us humans can handle much more CO than rats or mice, and CO is cleansed from the body once we are back to clean air. Here is a chart of PPMs/CO and it's characteristics (source: http://inspectapedia.com/hazmat/Carbon_Monoxide_Exposure_Limits.htm).
____________________
Table I. Effects of Carbon Monoxide Exposure and CO Exposure Limits

PPM CO Exposure Effects of Exposure of Carbon Monoxide at this level Source/comment

0 ppm No effects, this is the normal level in a properly-operating heating applianceNo carbon monoxide should be detected in residential properties. Possible brief technical exceptions occur.

9 ppm Maximum allowable short term exposure ASHRAE

10 - 24 ppm Investigation needed to find source; Health effects on humans uncertain.

25 ppm Maximum allowable TWA exposure limit OSHA. Used in personal CO alarms.

35 ppm Maximum allowable workplace exposure limit for an 8-hour work shift NIOSH (40 hour work week)

50 ppm Maximum allowable workplace exposure limit for an 8-hour work shift OSHA (40 hour work week)

125 ppm Workplace alarm must sound OSHA

200 ppm Evacuate the area immediately. Exposure at 200 ppm of CO causes dizziness, nausea, fatigue.

400 ppm Evacuate the area. 3 hour exposure may be fatal.

800-1600 ppm Evacuate the area. 2-3 hour exposure causes convulsions, loss of consciousness, death.

6400 ppm Evacuate the area. 30 minutes of exposure causes convulsions, loss of consciousness, death

12,800 ppm Evacuate the area. 1-3 minutes of exposure causes convulsions, loss of consciousness, death

(To convert from PPM to Percent, move the decimal 4 places to the left.)

According to the chart, at 200 ppm, a person would be experiencing dizziness, nausea, fatigue. Even at 6400 (0.6%) CO it would take 30 MINUTES to experience convulsions, loss of consciousness or death. This is 30 minutes of breathing in and out. That's a lot of VOLUME!

What WE need to know is the following...
1. How much CO ppm/Volume is produced from a burning cotton/rayon/gauze ball? (Glowing rather than flaming for real world vaping)
2. How much CO would be produced if we vaped dry and for how long?
3. How long would we keep our lips around that drip tube inhaling once we sense a dry hit?
4. How long for our lungs to recover from some idiot trying to break a record at #3?
_____
Here is an excerpt from a smoldering cellulose study (http://www.iafss.org/publications/aofst/7/129/view)

TF3: Smouldering fire (cotton)
The glowing cellulose fire (TF3) was achieved by burning 90 pieces of braided cotton wicks, each
approximately 80 cm long and weighing approximately 3 g. The wicks were fastened to a ring 10 cm
in diameter and suspended approximately 1 m above a metal plate.

This is a low power output fire that produces large amounts of white smoke. The cotton fire in Hefei
developed faster. The carbon monoxide concentration rose to over 80 ppm in 5 minutes in Hefei, but in Lhasa it was about 10 minutes. The burning time of tests in Lhasa was longer, but the maximum of carbon monoxide concentration of tests in Lhasa and Hefei were approximate.

(Notice that 90 pieces of braided cotton wicks, 80 cm long at 3 grams were smoldered)
_____

Not knowing the original report numbers but knowing the chart numbers and the cellulose study, do you really, really think we have anything to worry about as far as CO is concerned??

YMMV
 
Last edited:

Real Extract in Seattle

VU Vendor
VU Vendor
Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
What was quoted was just the abstract of the document.
I think you missed the point... Use caution with fiber wicks as these fibers release toxic vapors when heated.
The info you want may very well be contained in the full study which you can find if you want to make the effort.
 

Nu2Mods

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
What was quoted was just the abstract of the document.
I think you missed the point... Use caution with fiber wicks as these fibers release toxic vapors when heated.
The info you want may very well be contained in the full study which you can find if you want to make the effort.

Agreed and understood. Your last statement is my point. My point is that those that want vaping to fail or get regulated use "abstracts", whether factual or made up because they know that most people will NOT take the time to look up the actual values, but will rather fill in the details with "knowledge" they think they have or from what they have heard of, thus creating a knee-jerk reaction blown way out of proportion, causing mass hysteria and phobias about vaping. When you ask someone on the street "what do you think about ecigs and you get an answer, "They are way dangerous than cigs...who knows what's in that stuff" is the exact answer big pharma and the tobacco conglomerates wants a person to answer! They can spew lies and misinformation without any repercussions for their actions and people will believe it! ONLY those that go out and find the truths know, but unfortunately, they will NOT get the airtime through major media outlets to debate these lies and misdirections. The best we have are forums and video outlets such as Youtube.

Just recently, there was a major media blast that researchers found Formaldehyde in ecig vapors, then went on to discuss the dangers of formaldehyde. What the media FAILED to mention is that the formaldehyde found was so minute that it was considered "negligible". Without that value, most people that read the statement envisioned tons of formaldehyde killing vapers with every breath! It caused a major setback with the general public, yet no avenue was given for debate or feedback on the same media scale. This is why the numbers need to be shown with every statement we make so that the public can put the information in an educated and proper perspective. An educated public is the bane of the tobacco and big pharma industries!

Back to my original post, after looking at the numbers, what may have been considered as a major issue with CO turned out to be a minor one? Other than the other gases that are produced in smoldering cotton, the 80ppm CO is WAY less than 200 ppm CO with cigarettes. At my work, we used to test CO monitors for functionality before going to the field by finding a smoker and asking them to blow on the device. The device would immediately alarm!

I agree...don't let your wick dry out on a frequent basis...AND always show numbers...most people won't go look for themselves but will form an opinion with the information presented, whether accurate or misdirected, and will share that opinion.
 
Last edited:

Saddletramp1200

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
When I use it, I make sure it is always saturated with juice. I like it still. I use it in some atomizers. I have had zero problems. :cool:
 

51vape

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
I love my celluCotton. It is truly amazing, the wicking properties are kind of silly. I used to change out wicks every other day when using jap cotton or cvs cotton. I usually run these rayon wicks a full week. And you know what? The it still burns clean, bone dry clean. Really lets you maintain the juices flavor IMO.
 

A14U4IA

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Just dropped this on juice junkies, but are there any more recent studies?
Started with organic cotton balls been building with the same bag for 2 years! But my brick and mortar gives out cellucotton, the fibers are all lined up, little tougher imo, wicks better, has clean taste, can run a bit hotter in tc, and so cheap the shop gives it away. Been loving it a year or so, has a 2 to 3 drip taste break in, but not as bad as nichrome. Doing some fresh research myself. This is cellulose rayon, not the silky dress crap, this stuff can comes in medical grade for dna testing and the stuff it breaks down into what is supposed to be safer than cotton. Actually my coils wear out before this stuff half the time with tc.

P busardo

http://vapingunderground.com/threads/rayon-cellucotton.1228/
 

Bigbob2322

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Reddit Exile
Tips for using Rayon - ( IMPORTANT )

#1 Make sure it's very snug in your coil,twice as tight as cotton
#2 Thin the tails at least 30%
#3 Rayon shrinks unlike cotton, which swells up
#4 After 3 to 5 mils of juice is used, check that it's still snug in the coil
#5 Don't let the Rayon touch the outer wall of the atomizer because it will darken the Rayon
#6 Use spaced coils - ( Better Flavor - Less Gunking )
 
Last edited:

Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I bought a bag of Rayon beauty balls from the grocery store. Found them right next to the cotton balls. Probably the best $3 I've ever spent on vape supplies. The bag will last me for years.
 

cloudsbroclouds

Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
ECF Refugee
i use balls of delasco. i used fabco in the past but delasco is less expensive. i do miss the fabco bags. they make transporting the stuff a breeze!
 

danzac

Member For 4 Years
I just got some cellucotton not sure how I feel about it., it gives crazy throat hit and nic hit, I'm not sure if it's completely safe, there are a lot of people saying it is, and just as many saying it's not, that makes me feel a little uneasy. It is easy to work with, kinda makes me feel a little funny I'm not sure if just the nic hit or what, so I dripped some zero and this effect was less so... This is the kind from Sally's I'm using. I'm gonna keep experimenting with it

I just tried some cellucotton. I vape 6mg 70vg/30pg. I agree that it gives a mean throat hit and the nic level seem to jump up. I vape less because it makes my ejuice stronger. I get nic head rushes and have to put down my gear only after 3 pulls or I end up laying down. No way I can chain vape stuff dripping on my goon w/dual coil aliens at .1 ohms

I purchased cellucotton 100% cotton by mistake because the lable looks the same. I like this. I'm use to cotton. I guess it buffers the content for a less harsh vape. I notice my clouds are more dense, not that I'm into clouds as much as flavor. I get a smoother full vape also with cotton.

I wanted rayon for the cleaner taste and that it's suppose to last longer.
Going to keep with the rayon to see if its better when it breaks in.
 
Last edited:

danzac

Member For 4 Years
I like the rayon in my single coil Hadly rda. A stronger sharp throat hit and stronger flavor. It feels like vaping straight PG. The vapor is like PG vapor. Less clouds. Going to have to dilute my ejuice using rayon. Too harsh. It's going take some adjustments to get use to rayon. If I can't I'm happy with my cotton and changing my wicks more often.
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Tried Rayon, meh wasn't blown away. All the fancy Vape specific Cotton like Cotton Bacon, it's OK. Still love my Koh gen Do, wicks great, no nasty flavors, very easy to use, inexpensive, what can I say it's the best for me. I may revisit Rayon again for I still have a bag of it somewhere.

Bottom line is don't be afraid of something new, try it and if it works better than what you had use it.

Cheers
 

inspects

Squonkamaniac
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 5 Years
I like the rayon in my single coil Hadly rda. A stronger sharp throat hit and stronger flavor. It feels like vaping straight PG. The vapor is like PG vapor. Less clouds. Going to have to dilute my ejuice using rayon. Too harsh. It's going take some adjustments to get use to rayon. If I can't I'm happy with my cotton and changing my wicks more often.
You might be using the wrong type of rayon....you want Cellucotton.

There should be ZERO taste using cellucotton.... http://www.sallybeauty.com/cellucot...wSEir2pY3Km_764IZhIQPdbMsuuJSU2yz9RoCPpfw_wcB
 

BKTOAD

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Tried Rayon, meh wasn't blown away. All the fancy Vape specific Cotton like Cotton Bacon, it's OK. Still love my Koh gen Do, wicks great, no nasty flavors, very easy to use, inexpensive, what can I say it's the best for me. I may revisit Rayon again for I still have a bag of it somewhere.

Bottom line is don't be afraid of something new, try it and if it works better than what you had use it.

Cheers

I think from a pure flavor standpoint, rayon wins in my opinion. I do use cotton for the most part though anyway.

I find rayon gives the pure, undiluted, intense flavor. And that cotton tends to mute flavor ever so slightly. But enough to make a mediocre juice palateable. Rayon makes good juice great. And bad juice really bad. It does not lie.

But, getting a dry hit from rayon can ruin your day. Cotton gives you a "shouldn't-a done that" flavor, rayon an "end of the world garbage fire" flavor.

Wicking is almost a wash, with cotton getting the edge for me. Especially on attys that need long wick tails. Just seems like rayon can't pull it up against gravity very high, or very well.
 

VU Sponsors

Top