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OBS Engine.( To get or not to get ) that is the question

Roadtrip635

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I copied this from GearBest- it is saying this is a single post deck, which I am assuming it is the smaller Nano?
View attachment 73193
I think that is just the 23mm of the Engine Sub Tank, it's just the wording with "RTA" is incorrect. The description has it including 2x 0.2coils, which are included with the Engine Sub tanks. I would love to see them make a 23mm single coil Nano, hopefully that will come out soon.

Here's my Engine family photo ( 23mm Mini RTA, 25mm RTA, 25mm Sub)
obs%20family1_zpsqxp30jrd.jpg
 

Eskie

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I copied this from GearBest- it is saying this is a single post deck, which I am assuming it is the smaller Nano?
View attachment 73193

Ooh, that's just there to confuse you even more! See the sub in that description? That's their new subohm tank that uses a factory 0.2 ohm notch coil, not a rebuildable deck. And it's a 5 ml tank, not 3.5 ml. Here it is at MVS http://www.myvaporstore.com/OBS-Engine-SUB-p/obs-eng20.htm

Somehow that GearBest thing is a mashup of different tanks. Note how they mention it comes with a 0.2 ohm coil.

Personally, I'd love a 23 mm 3.5 ml single coil deck Engine. But as mini and nano are now taken, I guess maybe micro for that version?

lol glad you found what u like.

the main issue for me is the top airflow. with top airflow you can't cool off your coil. it just pulls the produced vapor up. so without your air cooling it off in watt mode they got hotter faster and in temp mode it cuts off vapor production faster. both of which mute flavor. plus when air comes under the coil it produces better flavor then side or bottom. thats why back in the days we used to build coils higher in side flow RDAs and why things like chimney coils came into existence. the search for flavor. top airflow was always weird to me. I'm not sure why it even started it felt like a step backwards. I think 3-4 years ago the engine would have been a revolution. RTAs sucked, premade tanks sucked and regulated mods sucked lol. I was only using mech's and RDAs after i got off my vape pen. nowadays there are so many good options it's crazy. people quitting for vaping now have it so much better then when we were scrubbing it up. todays worst devices are still 10 times better then the best devices of years ago

Top airflow is something you will see a lot more of. It's primarily being designed with upcoming EU TPD regulations in mind which will not only place restrictions on tank volume (2 ml max) but also carries anti-leak requirements. Building with top airflow is a reasonable way of meeting those requirements and is already seen in several other tanks on the market. So it's not really a step backward, but rather a step towards remaining complaint and available for sale in the EU (at least for now).

Obviously in the case of the Engine, the volume exceeds TPD specs, but the tech will help assure future designs will perform acceptably. In the case of the Engine, IMHO, I think they pulled off a great job at making top airflow perform well while offering the inherent anti-leak benefits of the design. As you say, we all have to find what works best for each of us.

Edit: What @Roadtrip635 said about the subohm tank while I was typing away in between bites of my dinner.:)
 

SirRichardRear

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Ooh, that's just there to confuse you even more! See the sub in that description? That's their new subohm tank that uses a factory 0.2 ohm notch coil, not a rebuildable deck. And it's a 5 ml tank, not 3.5 ml. Here it is at MVS http://www.myvaporstore.com/OBS-Engine-SUB-p/obs-eng20.htm

Somehow that GearBest thing is a mashup of different tanks. Note how they mention it comes with a 0.2 ohm coil.

Personally, I'd love a 23 mm 3.5 ml single coil deck Engine. But as mini and nano are now taken, I guess maybe micro for that version?



Top airflow is something you will see a lot more of. It's primarily being designed with upcoming EU TPD regulations in mind which will not only place restrictions on tank volume (2 ml max) but also carries anti-leak requirements. Building with top airflow is a reasonable way of meeting those requirements and is already seen in several other tanks on the market. So it's not really a step backward, but rather a step towards remaining complaint and available for sale in the EU (at least for now).

Obviously in the case of the Engine, the volume exceeds TPD specs, but the tech will help assure future designs will perform acceptably. In the case of the Engine, IMHO, I think they pulled off a great job at making top airflow perform well while offering the inherent anti-leak benefits of the design. As you say, we all have to find what works best for each of us.

Edit: What @Roadtrip635 said about the subohm tank while I was typing away in between bites of my dinner.:)
man those EU restrictions really suck :(
with that said i agree it's much better then I would have expected for a top airflow. they did a good job pulling it off and making it short too with a good capacity. all in all it's a good RTA, i just feel like the flavor for me at least is lacking compared to some others i have. but as I've said before it's all subjective and based on your build and vape type
 

SnapDragon NY

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Ooh, that's just there to confuse you even more! See the sub in that description? That's their new subohm tank that uses a factory 0.2 ohm notch coil, not a rebuildable deck. And it's a 5 ml tank, not 3.5 ml. Here it is at MVS http://www.myvaporstore.com/OBS-Engine-SUB-p/obs-eng20.htm

Somehow that GearBest thing is a mashup of different tanks. Note how they mention it comes with a 0.2 ohm coil.

Personally, I'd love a 23 mm 3.5 ml single coil deck Engine. But as mini and nano are now taken, I guess maybe micro for that version?



Top airflow is something you will see a lot more of. It's primarily being designed with upcoming EU TPD regulations in mind which will not only place restrictions on tank volume (2 ml max) but also carries anti-leak requirements. Building with top airflow is a reasonable way of meeting those requirements and is already seen in several other tanks on the market. So it's not really a step backward, but rather a step towards remaining complaint and available for sale in the EU (at least for now).

Obviously in the case of the Engine, the volume exceeds TPD specs, but the tech will help assure future designs will perform acceptably. In the case of the Engine, IMHO, I think they pulled off a great job at making top airflow perform well while offering the inherent anti-leak benefits of the design. As you say, we all have to find what works best for each of us.

Edit: What @Roadtrip635 said about the subohm tank while I was typing away in between bites of my dinner.:)
Thanks- yes it is confusing!
I will have to wait for a 23mm size of the Nano! Yes, I saw that they used Sub in the description, usually meaning factory coil, but when I saw single post RTA - I thought, oh boy that's the one I want! I sure do not want the factory coil tank!
Thanks everyone for clearing up my confusion!
 

ShowerHead

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I did call it the most overrated RTA of 2016 though in my best of 2016 video on my youtube channel. it's not a knock on the device itself, it's just the hype surrounding it didn't come close to equaling the actual performance

No, no, the one you meant was the Merlin. Now that was hyped way past what the press fit, leaky, finicky bastard warranted.
This tank on the other hand has lived up to its billing for me. You just seem to have an issue with top air flow, where I have an issue with leaky tanks.
So, doesn't leak. Has great flavor. Isn't a 5 gallon drum sitting atop my mod. Nice size build deck. Easy to wick. Looks good.
Winner winner, chicken dinner.
Better than this? The Engine Nano. I love the single coil version of this tank.
 

Carmmond

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lol glad you found what u like.

the main issue for me is the top airflow. with top airflow you can't cool off your coil. it just pulls the produced vapor up. so without your air cooling it off in watt mode they got hotter faster and in temp mode it cuts off vapor production faster. both of which mute flavor. plus when air comes under the coil it produces better flavor then side or bottom. thats why back in the days we used to build coils higher in side flow RDAs and why things like chimney coils came into existence. the search for flavor.

For me I would put it right up with the Azeroth and better than the Avocado, not much better but better. I know it's top flow and should not be that way but it is. I'm tasting flavors in my DIY that I could not with the Avocado.
 

SirRichardRear

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No, no, the one you meant was the Merlin. Now that was hyped way past what the press fit, leaky, finicky bastard warranted.
This tank on the other hand has lived up to its billing for me. You just seem to have an issue with top air flow, where I have an issue with leaky tanks.
So, doesn't leak. Has great flavor. Isn't a 5 gallon drum sitting atop my mod. Nice size build deck. Easy to wick. Looks good.
Winner winner, chicken dinner.
Better than this? The Engine Nano. I love the single coil version of this tank.
Different strokes. I only had one merlin I'm aware of the seeping issues. I got lucky with mine and I think it gives better flavor. Still just my opinion but I didn't see alot of people rave over the Merlin and I liked it better then the engine. Of course anyone is welcome to disagree but both are just ok tanks for me.

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SirRichardRear

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For me I would put it right up with the Azeroth and better than the Avocado, not much better but better. I know it's top flow and should not be that way but it is. I'm tasting flavors in my DIY that I could not with the Avocado.
Azeroth is really good for a side flow air. Very good favor from it for sure. I agree it passes the avacado

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MagicJosh

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nope! i never question one's opinion and as with most attys it's all a matter of opinion. unless an atty is highly prone to leaking or stupidly hard to build on, it becomes a matter of opinion. And i always respect others opinions ;)
I did call it the most overrated RTA of 2016 though in my best of 2016 video on my youtube channel. it's not a knock on the device itself, it's just the hype surrounding it didn't come close to equaling the actual performance
I subbed to you too! Great stuff!
 

SnapDragon NY

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This is the newer smaller version. I havn't tried it but i assume its good! I do prefer the dual velocity deck. Its beefy and has allot of room for fused clapton builds.
Oh heck, you guys talked me into to getting the OBS Nano! It will be a while before I get it from Fasttech! The 25mm Nano will fit nice with my Yosta Livepor 160w! I am using the Freemax Starre Pure with it now and that is a 25mm tank! I ordered the Black!
I also subbed to your channel, I like to support VU people- keep up the good work!( maybe use a brighter light) otherwise, great reviews!
 

SirRichardRear

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Oh heck, you guys talked me into to getting the OBS Nano! It will be a while before I get it from Fasttech! The 25mm Nano will fit nice with my Yosta Livepor 160w! I am using the Freemax Starre Pure with it now and that is a 25mm tank! I ordered the Black!
I also subbed to your channel, I like to support VU people- keep up the good work!( maybe use a brighter light) otherwise, great reviews!
I'm waiting for my livpor cause of your pic in the vape mail thread lol. For under 30 bucks why not. It'll make a good review

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SnapDragon NY

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I'm waiting for my livpor cause of your pic in the vape mail thread lol. For under 30 bucks why not. It'll make a good review

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We are all enablers here! Haha! I love the Livepor 160w, batteries last pretty much all day! The mod is light, but bigger than any of my others, but like you I thought "what the hell it was around $28.00" , something I could take outside and not baby like my Stabwood and other pricier mods! Hope you enjoy it! What color did you get?
Great mod to review as there are just a few reviews on this, but the reviewers seemed to like it! One thing the reviewers left out that it is very cold here, but with no metal, my hands don't freeze with it!
 

SirRichardRear

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We are all enablers here! Haha! I love the Livepor 160w, batteries last pretty much all day! The mod is light, but bigger than any of my others, but like you I thought "what the hell it was around $28.00" , something I could take outside and not baby like my Stabwood and other pricier mods! Hope you enjoy it! What color did you get?
Great mod to review as there are just a few reviews on this, but the reviewers seemed to like it! One thing the reviewers left out that it is very cold here, but with no metal, my hands don't freeze with it!
I got the white ;)
And yeah for the price I can't complain.

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ShowerHead

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but I didn't see alot of people rave over the Merlin
You must have missed the 74 page thread on this site and the one on ECF. It was the wonder tank of the year along with it's brother the Boreas Hell, I almost bought one from the reviewers' breathless praise..Thankfully, I didn't.

A tank you need to 'get lucky' with isn't a tank for me. Sounds like a high school date...
 

SirRichardRear

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You must have missed the 74 page thread on this site and the one on ECF. It was the wonder tank of the year along with it's brother the Boreas Hell, I almost bought one from the reviewers' breathless praise..Thankfully, I didn't.

A tank you need to 'get lucky' with isn't a tank for me. Sounds like a high school date...
Must have been before I joined here. Boreas though is awesome. I agree on the merlin. Too much seeping. But it wouldn't be the first time people have a love affair with a device that has issues. Just look at the whole wismec mod lineup lol.

The engine in its own right is a good rta. Good deck, nice design and size, no leaks, everything you would want. My only issue is the flavor loss from top air. Had they done the air like the freemax starre pure I think the engine could have been the top rta of the year. But personally I'd rather deal with a little leaking then to mute my flavors or not have enough air to cool my normal builds. But that's still only my opinion. I can totally see why people would love it

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ShowerHead

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Must have been before I joined here. Boreas though is awesome. I agree on the merlin. Too much seeping. But it wouldn't be the first time people have a love affair with a device that has issues. Just look at the whole wismec mod lineup lol.

The engine in its own right is a good rta. Good deck, nice design and size, no leaks, everything you would want. My only issue is the flavor loss from top air. Had they done the air like the freemax starre pure I think the engine could have been the top rta of the year. But personally I'd rather deal with a little leaking then to mute my flavors or not have enough air to cool my normal builds. But that's still only my opinion. I can totally see why people would love it

Well, like I said, I don't notice 'muted' flavors. But you're right, everything's a trade off. Since I'm not someone who believes in 'premium' juice and couldn't identify a 'flavor note' past somebody scrawling 'grape' on a scrap of cocktail napkin, as long as a tank has 'flavor' it has flavor.
For me, I'm done with tanks that needs this or that to not puke on me. The swell new feature is a screen on the airflow to cut down on condensation.

Look, I vape to not smoke. Flavor is nice, I guess, but as noted, I don't vape much past a 2 flavor mix and I'm happy with it. I admire (but question) those who swear by a 7+ flavor juice "Oooh I can taste duck on the inhale and giblets on the exhale" or "My recipe calls for 1/2 drop of sucralose"

Mainly I want an experience as close to opening my Marlboro fliptop box and lighting it up.
Topfill (ok side), no leaks, more airflow than I need, single coil (on the Nano), lasts all day and some on my dual battery mods.

If you like to futz with wicking juuust right, burping, trimming your wick so it can feed your 5 wire super coils, there's a place for that. I have fun reading about the giant tanks and build decks. Some of the coils are works of art.

But, if you want a carefree tank that provides great flavor, this is the tank. In both variants, single or dual coil. Fill it with 5ml of your favorite juice and forget about it until you need to refill.

Just what I've been looking for.
 

SirRichardRear

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Well, like I said, I don't notice 'muted' flavors. But you're right, everything's a trade off. Since I'm not someone who believes in 'premium' juice and couldn't identify a 'flavor note' past somebody scrawling 'grape' on a scrap of cocktail napkin, as long as a tank has 'flavor' it has flavor.
For me, I'm done with tanks that needs this or that to not puke on me. The swell new feature is a screen on the airflow to cut down on condensation.

Look, I vape to not smoke. Flavor is nice, I guess, but as noted, I don't vape much past a 2 flavor mix and I'm happy with it. I admire (but question) those who swear by a 7+ flavor juice "Oooh I can taste duck on the inhale and giblets on the exhale" or "My recipe calls for 1/2 drop of sucralose"

Mainly I want an experience as close to opening my Marlboro fliptop box and lighting it up.
Topfill (ok side), no leaks, more airflow than I need, single coil (on the Nano), lasts all day and some on my dual battery mods.

If you like to futz with wicking juuust right, burping, trimming your wick so it can feed your 5 wire super coils, there's a place for that. I have fun reading about the giant tanks and build decks. Some of the coils are works of art.

But, if you want a carefree tank that provides great flavor, this is the tank. In both variants, single or dual coil. Fill it with 5ml of your favorite juice and forget about it until you need to refill.

Just what I've been looking for.
Couldn't agree more. Tank does everything it's supposed to. Only knock is its not a "flavor chasers dream" but that's not a bad thing by any means. The flavor is still good for sure. Without a direct comparison I would call it a great tank for sure easy to use and wick doesn't leak good flavor checks all the boxes for me. I'm just always chasing more flavor personally and for my builds it doesn't quite stack up to me favorite ones.

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SnapDragon NY

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Does someone sell a deck plug to make the regular dual coil engine a single coil? I have seen some other tanks that do. That the plug would cover the 2 holes on the unused side of the deck.
 

Heartsdelight

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Does someone sell a deck plug to make the regular dual coil engine a single coil? I have seen some other tanks that do. That the plug would cover the 2 holes on the unused side of the deck.
I haven't seen one. Yes, brought a plug from Fasttech for my Griffin 22. But I have seen people plugging up with wick though.
 

Eskie

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Does someone sell a deck plug to make the regular dual coil engine a single coil? I have seen some other tanks that do. That the plug would cover the 2 holes on the unused side of the deck.

No, but there are photos of someone who built a single coil diagonally then split the wick to cover all 4 holes. If you want a dedicated single deck option they did/are releasing the Engine Nano, which is a single coil deck otherwise the same size (the airflow is still top, but set up differently than the regular Engine).
 

SnapDragon NY

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No, but there are photos of someone who built a single coil diagonally then split the wick to cover all 4 holes. If you want a dedicated single deck option they did/are releasing the Engine Nano, which is a single coil deck otherwise the same size (the airflow is still top, but set up differently than the regular Engine).

Yes I saw those single coil builds. If I could plug the 2 spare holes, why would I need the Nano? I have 2 Crius Plus tanks that do have a plug in each, might fit the engine too? Otherwise I will try the single coil a spread the cotton like the demonstration!
 

Eskie

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Yes I saw those single coil builds. If I could plug the 2 spare holes, why would I need the Nano? I have 2 Crius Plus tanks that do have a plug in each, might fit the engine too? Otherwise I will try the single coil a spread the cotton like the demonstration!

While you could do something about the holes, the airflow is designed for a 2 coil build. The nano airflow is designed for a single coil and different than the Engine. I doubt the C+ plug would fit as the design is so different (juice channels vs. holes in the build plate).
 

SnapDragon NY

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While you could do something about the holes, the airflow is designed for a 2 coil build. The nano airflow is designed for a single coil and different than the Engine. I doubt the C+ plug would fit as the design is so different (juice channels vs. holes in the build plate).
Ok Thanks- I will probably order the Nano from FT( only for preorder)- probably be sometime in March to get this tank!
 

ShowerHead

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Does someone sell a deck plug to make the regular dual coil engine a single coil? I have seen some other tanks that do. That the plug would cover the 2 holes on the unused side of the deck.

I haven't seen one.
You should consider that a plug in a tank designed for 2 coils isn't going to be the best solution.
The airflow will be greatly different when it finds a wall instead of a door, for lack of a better way to explain.
The Nano has been designed to be a single coil tank. Shoot, grab one and see if it isn't what you want.
I have two and they have replaced the original Engine for my use.
 

ShowerHead

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I'm just always chasing more flavor personally and for my builds it doesn't quite stack up to me favorite ones.

Sure, for esoteric coils, you need something equally esoteric in a tank. With that comes compromise. Like 'Sure it leaks, but when it holds juice, wow!'
 

SirRichardRear

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Sure, for esoteric coils, you need something equally esoteric in a tank. With that comes compromise. Like 'Sure it leaks, but when it holds juice, wow!'
I wouldn't call it esoteric. I mean wires like claptons and aliens are easily available now. It's not like before where only if u built it you could use them.

I don't see it as a compromise. I've never had any leaking issues out of my favorite tanks. The only tank that ever gave me issues is the modfather funny enough. But the ones I recommend to people have never given me a leak.

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Johnnytraveler

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Ok Thanks- I will probably order the Nano from FT( only for preorder)- probably be sometime in March to get this tank!
Several of the other chinese sites have them in stock at better prices.

I tried a plug with my dual coil griffin 25. Didn't do it for me. I'm looking to get the engine nano too. In addition to being designed for single coil, it has new airflow whereby it's hitting the coil from the side instead of the top.

Sent from somewhere in Vietnam.
 

SnapDragon NY

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Several of the other chinese sites have them in stock at better prices.

I tried a plug with my dual coil griffin 25. Didn't do it for me. I'm looking to get the engine nano too. In addition to being designed for single coil, it has new airflow whereby it's hitting the coil from the side instead of the top.

Sent from somewhere in Vietnam.
Which sites?
 

ShowerHead

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I see 3F says they have these in stock, and for a $1.00 more maybe worth not waiting a month or more from FT!
Oh yeah, go for the in stock for a buck.
Sometimes FT says they are out and actually ship the next day. Sometime they say ships on the 20th and the next month they are still showing a date 2-3 weeks away.
I don't know, but I always have better luck with ships in 24 hours.
 

joshuamarendt

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Yes, it very good. IMO, better than very good. Excellent flavor, good cloud, easy to build, and extremely leak resistant. I have 2 for my ADV and almost everything else is back in the drawer (almost, I still sometimes like to change a flavor on a whim and have a few tanks out with different juices for that).
After you recommended this in another thread it is a must for me.

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SnapDragon NY

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I do like single coil tanks, I think I will also have to buy the Nano after CNY and backlog is over.
I think I will do the same-
I already have 6 OBS tanks and just bought the Asmodus Silvanusa Stabwood last month along with coils,drip tips and eliquids! I'd like to give my card a rest for a bit- I keep telling myself- that I can buy this later! Wish this came out before I bought the 2 OBS Engines!
 

ShowerHead

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Wish this came out before I bought the 2 OBS Engines!

Yeah, I had thought of not getting this, but so glad I did.
Single coil is where its at for me. But, my original Engines will have a prime spot in storage.
My wife says I ought to have a sale what with all the older tanks and mods I have in climate controlled comfort.
Really just storage boxes with a renewable drying cube in them. I'm guessing moisture isn't a friend of tanks or mods.
But, who knows when a Sieglei 50W sporting a Subtank Mini might be just the thing I want...
 

SnapDragon NY

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Yeah, I had thought of not getting this, but so glad I did.
Single coil is where its at for me. But, my original Engines will have a prime spot in storage.
My wife says I ought to have a sale what with all the older tanks and mods I have in climate controlled comfort.
Really just storage boxes with a renewable drying cube in them. I'm guessing moisture isn't a friend of tanks or mods.
But, who knows when a Sieglei 50W sporting a Subtank Mini might be just the thing I want...

I will still get the OBS Nano, but will hold off a bit and let my card cool down a little bit! If I knew this was coming out, I would have purchased the Nano over the Dual coil Engines that I have. Actually this AM I watched a You Tube tutorial on how to do a single coil build in the regular engine, and I did it and I am very happy, seems to work much better than the dual coil build, very easy, and the tank feels much cooler! Now I couldn't understand a word of what he was saying at the end, but was able to follow what he was doing!

 
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jackmormon

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I've been using Nano for about a week and it is a fantastic tank. Definitely not a MTL tank but great flavor and all the leak proof/niceness of the original Engine. When you build it, it is pretty tough to tell where the coil is in regards to to the side airflow slots that hit the coil. After several builds using a 3MM ID coil, flavor and vapor are much better than first attempts when the coil is mounted quite high...~1MM below the top of the posts seems to be the sweet spot for me.
 

Heartsdelight

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I've been using Nano for about a week and it is a fantastic tank. Definitely not a MTL tank but great flavor and all the leak proof/niceness of the original Engine. When you build it, it is pretty tough to tell where the coil is in regards to to the side airflow slots that hit the coil. After several builds using a 3MM ID coil, flavor and vapor are much better than first attempts when the coil is mounted quite high...~1MM below the top of the posts seems to be the sweet spot for me.
Thanks for the tip!
 

Eskie

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Spent part of Saturday rewicking about 6 tanks (yes, I fell behind but I hadn't looked at my spreadsheet for a while). Two Engines. First one, meh the cotton was a little loose in the coils, but I'll just leave it. Second one, a little too much cotton and tight in the coils, but I'll just leave it. Both are vaping just fine.

The other 4 tanks? Those I had to pay close attention to if I wanted to ensure a leak free vaping experience. I have some more Engines in my stash still boxed.
 

SnapDragon NY

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Spent part of Saturday rewicking about 6 tanks (yes, I fell behind but I hadn't looked at my spreadsheet for a while). Two Engines. First one, meh the cotton was a little loose in the coils, but I'll just leave it. Second one, a little too much cotton and tight in the coils, but I'll just leave it. Both are vaping just fine.

The other 4 tanks? Those I had to pay close attention to if I wanted to ensure a leak free vaping experience. I have some more Engines in my stash still boxed.
I am still using the single coil on my Engine mini, but have tried rewicking again, and again. I will get the Nano but would need the mini version 23mm tank as that is the size most of my mods take. Hope they come out with a mini Nano!
My mini Engine seems to get too hot with a dual coil and is much better with a single, still having trouble after filling(flooding), and hoping my new wicking will help with that, so far so good!
 

Eskie

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I am still using the single coil on my Engine mini, but have tried rewicking again, and again. I will get the Nano but would need the mini version 23mm tank as that is the size most of my mods take. Hope they come out with a mini Nano!
My mini Engine seems to get too hot with a dual coil and is much better with a single, still having trouble after filling(flooding), and hoping my new wicking will help with that, so far so good!

I think if you're using a single in the mini designed for a dual coil build, you'll need to work more carefully on the wicking than the "standard" dual. What's the ID of the coil? You probably want a somewhat larger ID than usual to make sure you can get enough cotton into the coil to allow you to split the ends into 4 to get into all four juice holes.

I'm with you in wanting a single coil 23 mm tank nano mini micro whatever they want to call it. A dual 23 mm and a single 25 mm wouldn't be the way I'd bring out these products, but what do I know?
 

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