Michigan first state to ban flavored ecigs

Discussion in 'Vaping Related But Doesn't Fit In a Category' started by MC5, Sep 4, 2019.

  1. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Yes, they are saying it is tobacco and I too disagree with that. My point though is the Michigan legislation is going to keep vaping apart from other tobacco products. There will be a degree of difference allowed between the two, even if the FED is pushing to have it all in one lump.

    See, Michigan is setting precedent? They are showing other states a way to legislate to follow the spirit but not the letter of what the FED desires. They recognize the difference, or so it would appear to me. It also seems they are trying to help.

    Again it is going to come to us the vapers to educate, stand against the fear of ignorance. If not then yes, we'll all get lumped into tobacco products and we then suffer under whatever the FED outlines. Be that a full out ban and prohibition of vaping all across the board, or just trying to stop children using.

    I nearly agree with @jwill, there needs to be no regulation. Consumers can settle the issues that need addressed. You still need to educate those consumers though. We still need to run Juul out too sadly. I would rather not destroy a business in such a manner. They chose a way to market and a product line that drew a means to attack vaping though.

    We don't need more useless laws. There are already enough if they are enforced. Besides it really boils to simple contracting law. Consumers buy product X from company Y. If they like it they keep buying it, if not they move to something different. The power of consumer dollars is just the same as a bullet, er ballot. Produce products that kill customers, well you get voted out of business. It is the contract of buying and selling in the free market.

    Closed pod systems will keep these same kind of attacks happening too. An example needs set, educate, abolish closed pod systems to avoid such attacks on vaping and people's lives. We as vapers need to do this as it is our responsibility. No one else will do it for us and instead they will give lives back to big tobacco, pharmaceutical. Why allow such a clear evil to stand?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  2. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    "Git me the damn hole spoon!" Heard that a few times as well, or the grave splitter, trench trowel.
     
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  3. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    What may very well end up happening all over is simply taxation. The politicos will look good not making businesses go under, people can keep their jobs and vapers won’t smoke. (Plus those who want to try to quit with vaping will be able to.) Customers will be age verified stringently, so kids won’t be able to buy juice or hardware.
    So we’ll hopefully be able to keep on vaping, but at s significantly higher cost to us. I think it’s worth it. We should think about helping out those vapers on VU who might not be able to afford to.



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  4. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    No.

    No it is not worth an extra cost, when the laws already exist to ensure children do not get vaping gear or juice. There is no further need to tax more adding higher costs. Not when the solution lies in shifting points of view and enacting accountability. It is social issue and all the money you want toss at it will go into a black hole without resolving one damn thing.

    No. I do not expect others to pay my way for my vaping. If I need that then I do not need to vape. The worst case is I'll return to more expensive and more dangerous cigarettes, or simply quit it all, altogether and try to enjoy a limited caffeine addiction. Part of the reason I enjoy vaping is that it has a low cost. Another aspect of that enjoyment is an addiction to nicotine. Do I need it bad enough to let others buy it for me? No I do not.

    Yes, I understand people giving gifts and taking care of one another. I have suggest as much too. That is fine for everyone else. It does not apply to me being taken care of though. And no, that's not a martyr or messianic complex, issue. I just still hold to the traditional value of "you pay your own way". If the expensive way is too expensive, find a cheaper way. Well, I found a cheaper alternative and got on good with it.

    I'll be damned if I need to pay the way of others by having to pay more money to enjoy a cheaper way, when it rightly falls to being the responsibility of others. Like I stated over in ECF. "Where are the parents?" And I believe personally that if you cannot be bothered to be a parent, keep it in your fucking pants, or your legs together. Apologies if that reads as crude but damn it, it is the truth of the matter.

    You go out and have kids, I don't. I'm enjoying something at a lower cost. Your kids come along and fuck around with stuff I like, use some "nasty shit" in trying to use some "other shit" in gear similar to that I use, they get sick, die. Why then do I have to pay for that? They're not my fucking kids, are they? No, I do not, will not apologize if that reads as harsh, crude, asshole, prick, callous, selfish, self centered. What do you call parents that don't parent?

    If I had kids I would read them Grim brothers unabridged fairy tales for bed time stories. They would know monsters are real and exist, none of this Disney bullshit where heroes always win. Fuck no, my kids might even be terrified to sleep, not simply from the fairy tales but in the knowledge their father eats the monsters.

    He's far worse than monster ever could or would be. I would teach them accountability, integrity, respect, self discipline. As it is I can not father natural children. Not sure I'm too interested bringing kids up in this fucked up world anyway.

    My point being, I would be responsible. I would pay for my children. I would love to do it. While my kids might be terrified of me, they would love me too. I would be daddy, their best buddy against the vile mama. I would teach them the art of not cheating fair. I would not ask you to pay for them by say raising the price on a head of lettuce, or the cost of vibrators. That would be stupid of me.

    And sorry but yes some of the ire from having been a spiritual Satanist does remain. I loathe tolerating the stupid, the stupid need destroyed. Then I realize too my wife correctly pointed out, "gee someone might think you are stupid, how about that?" This is why I try to avoid pointing fingers, three always point back. Again though, that only further illustrates my point. It leaves the question, ...

    Why should I be forced to pay more for someone else's being stupid in my view; Especially knowing that even paying more will not solve anything? Further, I know the laws and regulations do exist to solve the problems. Well if these are not enforced how can the problems be solved? May as well not bother creating the laws and regulations if they go unenforced. That brings it right back to my question.

    Ultimately I am starting to see it as a :deadhorse: issue. I keep returning to the scene from one of the Nightmare on Elm Street movies. The one guy tells the other "look at the map. Where does it say we are?" The other guy says "It says we're fucked." The other guy gets huffy back, the guy with the map holds the map up and it reads in big bold letters "You're Fucked!"

    One day we'll get through the absurdity of life. Until then, well, ... something, something and the little machine that goes ping helps us out. Still agree with the idea, "Fuck the Bozos!"
     
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  5. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I don’t mean paying someone else’s way. I can’t afford to, nor do I wish to. I mean piffing or some other way. If someone can’t get juice etc then maybe someone could mix them some at a price that’s fair. (We were going to start a supply line, which is the logic road that I was following while writing.) haven’t worked it out, nor did I know exactly what I was going to write before I did. Take it as inspired writing or whatever...Or just being dumb. lol
    You may not want to pay tax on vape gear, but we paid tax on cigs here in NY. I’d rather vape than smoke, though. If you want to quit nic altogether, that’s your choice. Trade/barter might be a good choice, too. I’m not talking charity, or a form of welfare state vaping paid for by VU folks! It’s s personal choice to pay or not. I’m not thrilled about it either. The kids are being used as an excuse, they’re not being protected from anything.
    I just shot some ideas out, I’m not trying to foresee the freaking future. The rest of your post is about eating evil. So, fall to, brother. Those who can, do. And you apparently can!
    PS: there are Bolos on the other bus...:giggle: (An old Dead joke.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  6. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Ah, when you phrase it like this. I can agree with that. I don't want a social welfare state for vaping though. I'm glad you were able to follow and get that from the venom I was slinging. By the by the you I was using was the general case you, there was nothing personal to that.

    The children are being used as weapons like they often can be in domestic violence. Which as I think of it in that sense, I realize I better not think of it in that sense. Got the t-shirt "been there had it done, experienced it". Grew up seeing it. Grew up used as a weapon like that. So, better not think about it that way. Leaves me wanting to follow the Roman tradition of "painting the town red".

    "Legionaries, paint the town red with the blood of Caesar's enemies!"

    Working at it sister, elephants only go down a bite at a time though. I already see millions of elephants. Feeling like Sisyphus, forgot my handy spork. Damn it, call Diogenes and let him find an honest spork dealer. I meantime will continue vibrating and cooking up elephants.

    "Wonder twin powers activate! Form of a hockey puck!"

     
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  7. jwill

    jwill The Great King of Nothing VU Vendor VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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    Asking for higher taxes in the face of prohibition is a defeatist mentality. The reality is there is no winning unless it remains untouched. As soon as you start giving any ground, they will take all of it until there is nothing left.
     
  8. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Nicotine has always been "stringent" anywhere I could ever buy tobacco. Kids were still getting smokes, and it's rare they end up fining - let alone seizing and closing - bad-actor shops.

    That "stringency" is also what fubared most web-sales, since the bastards started taxing national-sales and age-verifying bullshit.

    Overreach... They love overreach - and pocket lining.
     
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  9. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Who’s asking for it? It’s just what I saw mentally when I thought about it. It’s a variation of what we went through with smoking. The prices kept rising, people bitched about it, but they paid it, if they couldn’t get it cheaper elsewhere.
    The only way to avoid this (for me, maybe not for you or anyone else) is to mix your own juice, which I plan on doing, or vape unflavored- which I’ve said already I would bloody well do (as an act of personal rebellion) instead of smoking. The main point for me is not to smoke. Even if I had to use Snus. Fuck ‘em, I refuse to start smoking again.
    I’m not pro tax at all, it’s just one possible outcome and nothing more. I played out a scenario in my head and this is what I saw.
    An almost worst case scenario, I should add.



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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  10. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I agree it’s over reach. And yep, it’s all about money. I mentioned a possible scenario, nothing more. It’s not what I want by any means, but I won’t effing smoke no matter what.
    It’s just what happened with smoking. That’s all.
    Edit: This was what I saw as one of the possible worse case scenarios.


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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  11. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I was handrolling smokes for about 2 decades - the prices got worse and worse. The taxes got worse and worse. The flaming-hoops got worse & worse. And everyone was accepting and PRO on this shit. Since it only helps insurance-companies, it's still bs.

    I'm damned sick and tired of governments and dickweeds playing "save the children".

    I'll vape until I decide not to - maybe they'll Red Flag that as well..
     
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  12. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I rolled cigs too when we didn’t have the money, when the prices started going crazy. They’ve gone from $6-7 a pack to almost $14. It was costing us so much, I decided to start vaping again. At first only to save money, I wasn’t sure I could quit.
    The kids are being used by the anti vaping people, but they’re also being poster kids for anti vaping since they were using counterfeit THC carts. They’ll say anything basically, to sleaze out of trouble.
    I’m sick of this “save the kids” bs, too. CDC could’ve tested the kids’ gear and taken blood tests to see what they were “vaping”. They chose not to, so they actually chose to let kids die! So much for giving a damn about what happened to them!


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  13. jwill

    jwill The Great King of Nothing VU Vendor VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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    So to add insult to injury. Michigan has decided that banning flavors is not punishment enough.

    As a secondary effect, the ban also creates a greater opportunity for people — including adolescents — to interact with law enforcement, putting them at increased risk of becoming involved with the criminal justice system. This is bad for communities. A report by the National Research Council found that “unduly harsh interventions and negative interactions between [people] and justice system officials can undermine respect for the law and legal authority.”

    These interventions are, indeed, unduly harsh. According to a leaked copy of the emergency rules (which are not yet finalized), anyone found with four or more flavored vaping products is “presumed to possess said items with the intent to sell.” This is punishable by imprisonment of six months and a fine per item. Given that disposable e-cigarettes and pods are often sold in packs of four or five, the fines and years of imprisonment can easily add up.

    Welcome to the Gulags.
     
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  14. jwill

    jwill The Great King of Nothing VU Vendor VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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  15. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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  16. Mykreign

    Mykreign Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    So if I make juice for someone and the big bad police find out, I go to jail? Because it's flavored!?

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  17. jwill

    jwill The Great King of Nothing VU Vendor VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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    Kind of what it looks like.
     
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  18. Mykreign

    Mykreign Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Well I guess I'll just smoke other stuff while carrying an AR-15

    Edit: censored my own post per forum rules haha

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  19. jwill

    jwill The Great King of Nothing VU Vendor VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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    Sounds reasonable.
     
  20. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I just got back from Wild Bill's near here. Anybody in especially southeastern Michigan will know that chain of shops. The folks I know weren't there tonight.

    They don't know anything. They're not being told anything. Business as usual until the hammer comes down.
    https://i.imgur.com/tp7MuB6.gifv
     
  21. ChainVapeS

    ChainVapeS Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Wtf.... it keeps getting more and more asinine... so if the police open my vape stash storage container and find my many bottles of flavored juice I tucked away, I go to jail...WTF WHITMER?

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  22. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I'll tell you what's almost as disturbing as all this hysteria is that people actually trying to help appear in many ways inept.
    From the detnews piece:
    "Federal Drug Administration?" It's Food and Drug Administration.

    "Michiganians." There's no such thing as a "Michiganian." It's Michigander.

    The guy from Boston in the video somebody posted is a medical professional, has great information, is well spoken and sounds pretty credible. However, he is doing the interview on a fuzzy low res webcam, mounted off the side, in his bedroom with an unmade bed and an open closet as the backdrop. So the whole time he's not looking into the camera, is in normal clothes and everybody is seeing his room and open closet. Totally unprofessional.

    He needed to be in his doctor's scrubs, in an office somewhere, at a desk with stacks of papers and a very erudite and scholarly looking bookshelf behind him,

    Little things? In this image and entertainment driven society, I don't think so. We need to sound and look as razor sharp and educated and levelheaded and professional as possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  23. jwill

    jwill The Great King of Nothing VU Vendor VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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    I dont disagree. Those out in the front need a coat and tie. Whats amazing is we have all these different kinds of people who vape. Cops, doctors, actors, engineers, etc.... and the vape community has done an excellent job of disseminating information, sharing knowledge and making what all this is now safer for everyone. I wouldnt be surprised that kind of collective on something also made it a target.
     
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  24. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    We’ll all have to learn to be very stealthy about things, I guess.
    I was hoping sanity would prevail, but it doesn’t seem like it. I’m so pissed off and bummed out. Which sounds lame, but I don’t know what can be done.


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  25. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    It might affect his aim, though.


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  26. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I think I saw him on Regulator Watch. I couldn’t fucking believe it. He was great, but honestly he would be discredited in two seconds. When I saw him, there was a stuffed toy in the background on the bed!!! Wtf?!


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  27. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Perverts.
     
  28. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I also don't disagree.
    When it comes to people occupying a profession that directly impacts this dialog, they need to appear professional in the context of that profession.
    The news article writers don't even know what FDA stands for or what label the citizens of their own state are known as? For generations?

    To directly address what you said, the bottom line is, the more positively that vaping is portrayed, the more threatening it is to their agenda.

    A community of largely responsible adults that helps each other across racial, political, socioeconomic and geographical lines? One that polices itself with far greater direct responsibility and efficiency than the stiff suit bureaucrats could ever hope to? One that accomplishes medical benefits on it's own that none of their institutions were able to, for a fraction of the cost and entirely without their participation? All the while reaching deep into their greedy self serving pockets?

    That's the LAST thing they want people to see. Which means that's exactly what we need to show them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
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  29. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    So well said. I hope we all live up to this right now. Thanks!


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  30. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I hope that means folks speaking "for vaping" are tatless, pierce-less, well-groomed, well-spoken & well-dressed - and not cloud-chucking.

    But, they ain't been seen so far.
     
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  31. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    My point is that when somebody says "I am a medical professional and what you are about to hear is my professionally medical view for the following reasons," they need to be presented and present themselves in a way that average people expect to see in a credible and serious member of that profession.

    The opposition sure is up on that and with them it's just the reverse. They are providing spectacularly bad information, but in a package that gives the appearance of credibility. It's the APPEARANCE that will stay with people. We need both the advantage of being actually right AND that appearance of credibility.

    When somebody writes a piece for a major newspaper, even an opinion piece, they are in effect declaring themselves to be possessed of sufficient journalistic weight as to warrant that space in said newspaper. It doesn't help their credibility, or ours that they do not know the name of one of the top federal agencies which also is a front line player in this war. It's even worse that they are unaware of what the citizens of their own state have called themselves for at least 100 years.
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    To be quite pointed about it, yes. Whether anybody likes it or not, this is not a time for equal opportunity. Squeaky clean is what is needed.
    Whether justified or not, today's populous sees vapers as the rough cultural equivalent of how the hippies were viewed in the 1960's. Giving them any reason to fancy themselves correct in that estimation would be disastrously unwise.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  32. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I know..
    And those are exactly the sorts they love to interview and bring on shows - people I wouldn't invite over to kick.

    Further, the repeated "talking points" should be a clue to viewers - but the idiots never even notice the repetition we've seen for 3 years of trump across every single network.
     
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  33. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Agreed. It is the same strategy as "I will have the well, or none will".

    Wife said "hey Bucko, smokes is costing too much plus I want you around longer. you are going to try vaping, damn it."

    I already do vape unflavored part of the time. *chuckles* I don't mind it one bit. Sure it is nice to have a little mint, possibly menthol at times. Ultimately though I just need nicotine and VG. Sure I might also like some kind of honey flavor but as is pointed out I'll need to do that myself. *chuckles* I might too when I can "get there".

    Far too many of us rolled our own.

    Damn. Think I'll go find a blunt stick to poke myself in the eye. Maybe that can be more fun.

    I'll stroll around in a suicide bomber vest then, laced up with some C3 or dirty home made C4. I mean why not? May as well watch folks give you clear way as you "suck a pipe bomb" as is said about using mech vape devices.

    Something I have noticed though. No one has actually seemed to draw away when I pull out my mech. They just stay put, keep on like it is perfectly natural and they got no fear of it. Boy, I bet that soon changes too, though. As it is the worst I've faced is simple questions. "Hey that a good vape?" "That got nicotine, or other stuff in it?" "Oh really, cleaner nicotine? Huh, how about that?"

    Es lebe unser Führer!


    Agreed, therefore I remove myself from being a tie monkey. Apologies I simply cannot "clean up" well enough and "sit still" long enough any longer. Oh, I possibly could shove come shove. Rather not though. I'm not that kind of asshole.
     
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  34. ChainVapeS

    ChainVapeS Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    So after emailing all of the people in power in Michigan, this is the response I received today via email. [​IMG][​IMG]

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  35. ChainVapeS

    ChainVapeS Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    More save the children b.s. and oh yeah, let's throw Trumps name in at the end, federal level, he's the real bad guy here. So many things I want to say but don't have the energy to type right now.


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  36. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    six months is plenty to shutter marginal biz. <shrug>
     
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  37. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    At least they answered you. But it’s a whole lotta nothing in a lot of words. What about adult vapers? They can regulate what kids get a hold of, without screwing us over!!


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  38. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    They have no way to control the kids, (apparently the parents don't either), nor do they really WANT to control the little darlings.. But, they can use it as a rally-call to encompass more Control over the peons and line more pockets.
     
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  39. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Know I do not live in Michigan. Overlooking that, not sure about anyone else but I'm not "some adults" as mentioned in the letter. Yes, I see the deaths and illness as terrible. I have empathy and sympathy for the victims to a point.

    For the government though to call it a crisis, is in and of itself a crisis or a farce perhaps. I listed two things off the top of my head that create far more death, injuries annually than vaping has done in a decade. Do we hear about how automobile related deaths and injuries are a crisis? No. Do we hear about lightning strike related deaths, injuries are a crisis? No.

    We will beat everyone senseless though with this terrible health crisis of vaping though. I call a red herring. Today there were Judicial Oversight hearings in D.C. where it was presented the POTUS's campaign manager at the time likely helped then candidate cover up a slew of illegal activity, inclusive of election tampering. Let our government though not waste a crisis, or farce. Let the media instead go gaga over the vaping crisis, cover up the covering up even as the Judaical Oversight Committee is readying to impeach and indite our POTUS.

    That all of course seems brilliantly logical, given lately it all seems going the route of hand baskets traversing to Hell.
     
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  40. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Exactly. Do not control children, just use them as weapons.
     
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  41. ChainVapeS

    ChainVapeS Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I already struggle with random, occasional dual use. If they take away my vaping, I'll probably end up going back to stinkies full time all the time, then my wife will divorce me, her words, then I'll lose my business and end up living in my truck which will break down soon, and I'll die from lung and throat cancer in a broken down dodge ram full of cigarette butts and decaying fast food that I found in the trash at the rest area on HWY 127 north bound.



    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  42. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    "Some people did something."
     
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  43. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Add a mile marker there trucker. I might come find you and steal any butts you got left with any hint of a draw on them. I'll lug you out of the truck too between coughing fits, find some old burlap and a grave splitter, make a hole and roll you in. I'll put up a cross out of sticks and string, might even babble a few words, kick some dust.
     
  44. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    "Nobody did anything. Everybody wishes nobody did something. Nobody does not want to be a somebody."
     
  45. ChainVapeS

    ChainVapeS Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    My man! Good lookin out with the making of a hole and rolling me in!

    Lmao, I needed a good laugh today!

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  46. ajvapes

    ajvapes Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I think there is a loop hole......If one would buy Premix base it would be perfectly legal as unflavored juice.....Bulk shots under separate mailing would be nothing more than food flavoring. What you do with it is nobody's business.
     
  47. wildgypsy70

    wildgypsy70 My son calls me "vape mom" Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team

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    Nope. Not gonna happen.
     
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  48. ChainVapeS

    ChainVapeS Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    No, it won't thanks to great people like you and a handful of others I've crossed paths with!

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
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  49. Synphul

    Synphul Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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  50. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Happy to have given that at least. For all the seriousness of this life, pays to stop and laugh once in a while. :)
     
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