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Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
So things like stress testing doesn't amount to shit?
OK, we'll have to agree to disagree. With Mooch's resume, qualifications, experience and dedication to safety I'm fully prepared to trust his judgement.
Stress testing is great. Mooch does that and he does it well.

Intentionally causing them to fail and vent to see how violent the reaction is is something different, and not something that mooch does.

Did mooch open up the cells to verify the cathode and anode were separated and using different materials as outlined in that Li-Ni research article mentioned earlier? No, he didnt.

Why is this so difficult for you guys to understand?
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I'm "picking on" this battery because it's the only one that actually exceeds the specifications of cells offered by the 5 major battery manufacturers.

You guys think that ijoy somehow managed to start from scratch and outdo the big guys? All to cater to vapers?

Wow. Enjoy your batteries folks. I'm sure they perform very well... just be safe.
They "Don't" manufacture 26650's as has been pointed out.
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Stress testing is great. Mooch does that and he does it well.

Intentionally causing them to fail and vent to see how violent the reaction is is something different, and not something that mooch does.

Did mooch open up the cells to verify the cathode and anode were separated and using different materials as outlined in that Li-Ni research article mentioned earlier? No, he didnt.

Why is this so difficult for you guys to understand?
So if you have evidence that they're an unsafe battery please present it.
 

Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Prove they're actually using that fancypants Li-Ni tech and aren't just selling icr cells with a fancy wrapper.
 

Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
The nickel–lithium battery, also known as Ni–Li, is an experimental battery using a nickel hydroxidecathode and lithium anode. The two metals cannot normally be used together in a battery, as there are no electrolytes compatible with both. The LISICON design uses a layer of porous glass to separate two electrolytes in contact with each metal. The battery is predicted to hold more than three and a half times as much energy per pound as lithium-ion batteries, and to be safer. However, the battery will be complex to manufacture and durability issues have yet to be resolved.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–lithium_battery

...So ijoy is using this tech now, in these cells ehhhhhhh?

I'll believe that when my shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbert.
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
I'm "picking on" this battery because it's the only one that actually exceeds the specifications of cells offered by the 5 major battery manufacturers safe chemistry offerings.

You guys think that ijoy somehow managed to start from scratch and outdo the big guys? All to cater to vapers?

Wow. Enjoy your batteries folks. I'm sure they perform very well... just be safe.
It actually falls 2 amps short of lg hb6 so how does it exceed them all? And 26650 batts due to their size should exceed 18650. The big manufacturers don't make them. I'm sure of Samsung or lg had any interest in making 26650 batts for vaping they'd find a way to blow the Ijoy batts out of the park. But they dont

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r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
You're right. No one manufacturers them. They were sent here by angels, clearly.
Not the Big 5 buddy ................

So who's making since the Big 5 doesn't make 26650's and what proof do you have about the iJoy's, not some generaric Wikipedia article
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
The nickel–lithium battery, also known as Ni–Li, is an experimental battery using a nickel hydroxidecathode and lithium anode. The two metals cannot normally be used together in a battery, as there are no electrolytes compatible with both. The LISICON design uses a layer of porous glass to separate two electrolytes in contact with each metal. The battery is predicted to hold more than three and a half times as much energy per pound as lithium-ion batteries, and to be safer. However, the battery will be complex to manufacture and durability issues have yet to be resolved.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–lithium_battery

...So ijoy is using this tech now, in these cells ehhhhhhh?

I'll believe that when my shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbert.
Lol so u ask us for the burden of proof when your making accusation and use an old ass Wikipedia article? Those batteries have been used in cars for the past 7 years. Look at this links I posted.

Show me proof the batts you use are safe lol see you can't. U assume because it's samsung it's safe yet the note 7 have exploded more then the ijoys lol

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r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
It actually falls 2 amps short of lg hb6 so how does it exceed them all? And 26650 batts due to their size should exceed 18650. The big manufacturers don't make them. I'm sure of Samsung or lg had any interest in making 26650 batts for vaping they'd find a way to blow the Ijoy batts out of the park. But they dont

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:headbang::deadhorse::tunez::headbang::deadhorse:
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
Prove they're actually using that fancypants Li-Ni tech and aren't just selling icr cells with a fancy wrapper.
Buy me one to waste and send it to me and I'll short it out and record it on video lol

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Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
It actually falls 2 amps short of lg hb6 so how does it exceed them all?

Ever consider adding mah to that comparison?

Also...

The nickel–lithium battery, also known as Ni–Li, is an experimental battery using a nickel hydroxidecathode and lithium anode. The two metals cannot normally be used together in a battery, as there are no electrolytes compatible with both. The LISICON design uses a layer of porous glass to separate two electrolytes in contact with each metal. The battery is predicted to hold more than three and a half times as much energy per pound as lithium-ion batteries, and to be safer. However, the battery will be complex to manufacture and durability issues have yet to be resolved.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–lithium_battery

...So ijoy is using this tech now, in these cells ehhhhhhh?

I'll believe that when my shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbert.
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
Ever consider adding mah to that comparison?

Also...

The nickel–lithium battery, also known as Ni–Li, is an experimental battery using a nickel hydroxidecathode and lithium anode. The two metals cannot normally be used together in a battery, as there are no electrolytes compatible with both. The LISICON design uses a layer of porous glass to separate two electrolytes in contact with each metal. The battery is predicted to hold more than three and a half times as much energy per pound as lithium-ion batteries, and to be safer. However, the battery will be complex to manufacture and durability issues have yet to be resolved.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–lithium_battery

...So ijoy is using this tech now, in these cells ehhhhhhh?

I'll believe that when my shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbert.
That's like comparing a v8 engine to a v4. Obviously a bigger battery should have more capacity.

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Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Lol so u ask us for the burden of proof when your making accusation and use an old ass Wikipedia article? Those batteries have been used in cars for the past 7 years. Look at this links I posted.

Show me proof the batts you use are safe lol see you can't. U assume because it's samsung it's safe yet the note 7 have exploded more then the ijoys lol

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The "links" you posted were to a no name tech site, and another no name site using a word for word copy and paste taken from the first... from 2009.

Hardly concrete evidence that this battery technology is currently in use anywhere.
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
Ever consider adding mah to that comparison?

Also...

The nickel–lithium battery, also known as Ni–Li, is an experimental battery using a nickel hydroxidecathode and lithium anode. The two metals cannot normally be used together in a battery, as there are no electrolytes compatible with both. The LISICON design uses a layer of porous glass to separate two electrolytes in contact with each metal. The battery is predicted to hold more than three and a half times as much energy per pound as lithium-ion batteries, and to be safer. However, the battery will be complex to manufacture and durability issues have yet to be resolved.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–lithium_battery

...So ijoy is using this tech now, in these cells ehhhhhhh?

I'll believe that when my shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbert.
With 1 reference on Wikipedia to an 8 year old article lol

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Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Show me proof the tech has matured and is actually in use, anywhere.

Your "links" were garbage. One was to a no name tech blog, and the second was an exact copy and paste of the first on yet another no name site... from 2009.

Pot kettle black much?
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
Me, trust Mooch or someone named Droogbc .......... difficult decision, isn't it?
Lol but he's so skeptical how can u not trust him over someone who's been doing this for years and actually ran tests and has proof

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Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Lol, no thanks.

But just to be clear, I'm not accusing ijoy of anything here. They're selling 26650's that perform extremely well for most vaping needs. I'm just loudly expressing my concern over the chemistry contained therein, because as a rewrapper in my eyes they are guilty until proven innocent when it comes to their claims, unfortunately.

Lying about the product is #1 in the battery rewrappers handbook, so when an industry nobody starts pumping out cells that trounce the competition whilst claiming to use internal chemistry that may or may not even be out of the lab yet... yeah, my suspicions are heightened. Kinda surprised others are happy to take them at face value, when it would be cheaper and easier to just lie about what's inside and print something else on the label. They all do it all the time with amp ratings, but people seem to think lying about the chemistry is somehow unfathomable.
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Lol, no thanks.

But just to be clear, I'm not accusing ijoy of anything here. They're selling 26650's that perform extremely well for most vaping needs. I'm just loudly expressing my concern over the chemistry contained therein, because as a rewrapper in my eyes they are guilty until proven innocent when it comes to their claims, unfortunately.

Lying about the product is #1 in the battery rewrappers handbook, so when an industry nobody starts pumping out cells that trounce the competition whilst claiming to use internal chemistry that may or may not even be out of the lab yet... yeah, my suspicions are heightened. Kinda surprised others are happy to take them at face value, when it would be cheaper and easier to just lie about what's inside and print something else on the label. They all do it all the time with amp ratings, but people seem to think lying about the chemistry is somehow unfathomable.
So again, who are the actual 26650 battery manufacturers? The Big 5 for 18650's sure don't make them.
 

Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
It isn't me vs mooch. Just because the batrery will give you 30 amps doesn't mean it won't blow your goddamn fingers off if it's dead shorted. Mooch doesn't test for that shit. He tests a bunch, but the man just doesn't go that far with it.

...but he ran some bench tests and therefore they're 100% guaranteed to not be icr's, because he's mooch and would totally know exactly what is contained inside the canister, because he's mooch.

Guess you've never torn a wrapper or had an insulator.melt on a mech. This shit is no joke.
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Lol, no thanks.

But just to be clear, I'm not accusing ijoy of anything here. They're selling 26650's that perform extremely well for most vaping needs. I'm just loudly expressing my concern over the chemistry contained therein, because as a rewrapper in my eyes they are guilty until proven innocent when it comes to their claims, unfortunately.

Lying about the product is #1 in the battery rewrappers handbook, so when an industry nobody starts pumping out cells that trounce the competition whilst claiming to use internal chemistry that may or may not even be out of the lab yet... yeah, my suspicions are heightened. Kinda surprised others are happy to take them at face value, when it would be cheaper and easier to just lie about what's inside and print something else on the label. They all do it all the time with amp ratings, but people seem to think lying about the chemistry is somehow unfathomable.
That's why we trust experts like Mooch
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
It isn't me vs mooch. Just because the batrery will give you 30 amps doesn't mean it won't blow your goddamn fingers off if it's dead shorted. Mooch doesn't test for that shit. He tests a bunch, but the man just doesn't go that far with it.

...but he ran some bench tests and therefore they're 100% guaranteed to not be icr's, because he's mooch and would totally know exactly what is contained inside the canister, because he's mooch.

Guess you've never torn a wrapper or had an insulator.melt on a mech. This shit is no joke.
So you saying Mooch labeling them as a 26650 IMR Battery and he doesn't know what he's doing?

Sorry if I call complete bullshit on this, it's not like he has a long history and references in the business and knows what the fuck he's doing ;)
 

Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
So you saying Mooch labeling them as a 26650 IMR Battery and he doesn't know what he's doing?

Sorry if I call complete bullshit on this, it's not like he has a long history and references in the business and knows what the fuck he's doing ;)
Call bullshit all you like, but the bench tests he performs do not reveal the cells internal chemistry. He references them as IMR, has apparently stated concern they might be icr (as mentioned by someone else), and the manufacturer says they're something different entirely.

But my concern is out and out wrong. Gotcha.

Enjoy your batteries.
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Call bullshit all you like, but the bench tests he performs do not reveal the cells internal chemistry. He references them as IMR, the manufacturer says they're something different.

Enjoy your batteries.
Again who are the major 26650 Battery Manufacturer's?

And please share the data sheet of them if you have it, they don't list the chemistry on their site.
 

Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Again who are the major 26650 Battery Manufacturer's?

And please share the data sheet of them if you have it, they don't list the chemistry on their site.
You like the cells so much, do a little research of your own.
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
You like the cells so much, do a little research of your own.
I have and I'm perfectly fine with them and perfectly happy with taking Mooch's word based on his reputation, experience, knowledge and qualifications.

Again, who's the major 26650 battery manufactures?
 

Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
HURRAY! I'm glad you're happy with your batteries.

I'll let you tell us exactly who manufacturs all of the 26650's. You're clearly dying to show us how much you 100% definitely know.
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
HURRAY! I'm glad you're happy with your batteries.

I'll let you tell us exactly who manufacturs all of the 26650's. You're clearly dying to show us how much you 100% definitely know.
I've been asking, so please tell me who?
Never said I definitely know, thus why I ask
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
Lol, no thanks.

But just to be clear, I'm not accusing ijoy of anything here. They're selling 26650's that perform extremely well for most vaping needs. I'm just loudly expressing my concern over the chemistry contained therein, because as a rewrapper in my eyes they are guilty until proven innocent when it comes to their claims, unfortunately.

Lying about the product is #1 in the battery rewrappers handbook, so when an industry nobody starts pumping out cells that trounce the competition whilst claiming to use internal chemistry that may or may not even be out of the lab yet... yeah, my suspicions are heightened. Kinda surprised others are happy to take them at face value, when it would be cheaper and easier to just lie about what's inside and print something else on the label. They all do it all the time with amp ratings, but people seem to think lying about the chemistry is somehow unfathomable.
Nobody took them at face value and nobody is going by their wraps. We're going by mooch like we always do

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SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
So you saying Mooch labeling them as a 26650 IMR Battery and he doesn't know what he's doing?

Sorry if I call complete bullshit on this, it's not like he has a long history and references in the business and knows what the fuck he's doing ;)
Droogbc clearly has a better battery blog then mooch lol

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SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
I've been asking, so please tell me who?
Never said I definitely know, thus why I ask
Typical troll behavior. I'm right but I refuse to prove it go prove me right yourself lol what a joke man

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Droogbc

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
You got me. I totally registered over a year ago just to troll your ijoy circlejerk. Damn. You guys are just too perceptive for me to have gotten away with it.

Congrats, you win the non argument.

Enjoy your batteries.
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
You got me. I totally registered over a year ago just to troll your ijoy circlejerk. Damn. You guys are just too perceptive for me to have gotten away with it.

Congrats, you win the non argument.

Enjoy your batteries.
How is it a circle jerk? So everytime people recommend a Samsung 30q it's a circle jerk? None of us would know a good battery including yourself if it wasn't for mooch but all of a sudden you know better then him lol

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r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
You got me. I totally registered over a year ago just to troll your ijoy circlejerk. Damn. You guys are just too perceptive for me to have gotten away with it.

Congrats, you win the non argument.

Enjoy your batteries.
So still waiting on your answer for who the main manufactures of 26650's that iJoy and the rest just rewrap. Not being an ass but you imply that you know. We all know for the most part who eFest, Imren, etc. (largely thanks to Mooch BTW) rewrap. So who are the 26650 manufactures?
 

Mooch

Member For 4 Years
Wow...where to begin? :)

I think I'll just bullet point my various thoughts...
  • I have been testing batteries as part of my work designing power management electronics for over 20 years. Does that make me an expert? Hell no. But it does mean I have a lot of experience doing it and I do it very well. :)
  • None of the big manufacturers make 26650's anymore because the market is too small. BBC still does, forgot what the letters mean, and makes the decent cell originally used in the Basen, Brillipower, and Efest 4200mAh's.
  • An existing battery manufacturer, there are at least a couple dozen others than the big 5, could easily have seen the hole in the existing 26650 product lines and decided to create the cell used in the iJoy 4200mAh. There doesn't have to be any new technology there to get that performance. Just using what's been developed the past few years and putting it in a 26650 instead of an 18650.
  • While we can't verify the chemistry of any cell without some serious materials analysis there are hints in the discharge graphs and the susceptibility of the cell to damage from overtemperature.
  • ICR/INR/IMR aren't chemistries. They are manufacturer model number prefixes. They are often used for the chemistries we typically associate them with, but not always.
  • ICR is used for lithium-cobalt-oxide (LCO) chemistry, what's used in what we call LiPo's, and for nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) chemistry, i.e. "hybrid" chemistry, what's used in many of the batteries we vape with.
  • But INR is also used for hybrid chemistry cells.
  • It's called hybrid chemistry because it's in between the safer (not safe) lithium-manganese chemistry (LMO) we call IMR and the more volatile LCO chemistry. It's the amount of cobalt that determines whether its volatilty leans toward LMO or LCO. Every hybrid chemistry/battery has a different blend.
  • I'm not sure there are any LMO chemistry cells, called IMR by the manufacturers, used by vapers anymore. NMC, LCA, NCA, LCO...yes. But I'm hard pressed right now to think of a LMO cell right now.
  • The iJoy 4200mAh cell discharges similarly to the hybrid chemistry cells we use all the time, e.g., 25R, HE2/5, HB2/4/6, the VTC's, and others. It does not discharge like a LCO cell, with its flat discharge curve. Is this definitive? No. But it's a good start.
  • LCO isn't a time bomb. And hybrid chemistry cells are used and trusted by vapers all the time. Yes, LCO is more volatile than the hybrid chemistries if you force it into thermal runaway. But that takes a short-circuit. Running the cell hard, very hard, won't do it as the cell will vent first. You have to heat it so fast that it actually can't vent before the temperature rises far enough to cross the thermal runaway threshold.
  • Hybrid cell thermal runaway often isn't a picnic either. That percentage of cobalt it has, while less than LCO cells, still increases their volatility. You can still get bursting cells and fireballs with hybrid cells. But how many people say 25R's, HE2/4's, and VTC's are dangerous?
  • I haven't spent much time on what cells use what chemistry because it usually doesn't matter. Almost all of them are a hybrid chemistry. I call out the few LCO cells I think I've found but they're rare.
  • IMR has just become a generic term for li-ion for most of the Chinese battery companies to put in the wrap. None naybactually be IMR. None of the rewraps are IMR, i.e., LMO chemistry. It's used for almost every hybrid chemistry Chinese cell and rewrap. I was going to ask in one of my upcoming videos whether this was a concern or not for the community. It doesn't affect their performance, and IMR actually isn't a chemistry, but perhaps it's time to push for more accurate chemistry designations on the Chinese cells?
Wow...sorry that was so long. But it's a good start. :)
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Wow...where to begin? :)

I think I'll just bullet point my various thoughts...
  • I have been testing batteries as part of my work designing power management electronics for over 20 years. Does that make me an expert? Hell no. But it does mean I have a lot of experience doing it and I do it very well. :)
  • None of the big manufacturers make 26650's anymore because the market is too small. BBC still does, forgot what the letters mean, and makes the decent cell originally used in the Basen, Brillipower, and Efest 4200mAh's.
  • An existing battery manufacturer, there are at least a couple dozen others than the big 5, could easily have seen the hole in the existing 26650 product lines and decided to create the cell used in the iJoy 4200mAh. There doesn't have to be any new technology there to get that performance. Just using what's been developed the past few years and putting it in a 26650 instead of an 18650.
  • While we can't verify the chemistry of any cell without some serious materials analysis there are hints in the discharge graphs and the susceptibility of the cell to damage from overtemperature.
  • ICR/INR/IMR aren't chemistries. They are manufacturer model number prefixes. They are often used for the chemistries we typically associate them with, but not always.
  • ICR is used for lithium-cobalt-oxide (LCO) chemistry, what's used in what we call LiPo's, and for nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) chemistry, i.e. "hybrid" chemistry, what's used in many of the batteries we vape with.
  • But INR is also used for hybrid chemistry cells.
  • It's called hybrid chemistry because it's in between the safer (not safe) lithium-manganese chemistry (LMO) we call IMR and the more volatile LCO chemistry. It's the amount of cobalt that determines whether its volatilty leans toward LMO or LCO. Every hybrid chemistry/battery has a different blend.
  • I'm not sure there are any LMO chemistry cells, called IMR by the manufacturers, used by vapers anymore. NMC, LCA, NCA, LCO...yes. But I'm hard pressed right now to think of a LMO cell right now.
  • The iJoy 4200mAh cell discharges similarly to the hybrid chemistry cells we use all the time, e.g., 25R, HE2/5, HB2/4/6, the VTC's, and others. It does not discharge like a LCO cell, with its flat discharge curve. Is this definitive? No. But it's a good start.
  • LCO isn't a time bomb. And hybrid chemistry cells are used and trusted by vapers all the time. Yes, LCO is more volatile than the hybrid chemistries if you force it into thermal runaway. But that takes a short-circuit. Running the cell hard, very hard, won't do it as the cell will vent first. You have to heat it so fast that it actually can't vent before the temperature rises far enough to cross the thermal runaway threshold.
  • Hybrid cell thermal runaway often isn't a picnic either. That percentage of cobalt it has, while less than LCO cells, still increases their volatility. You can still get bursting cells and fireballs with hybrid cells. But how many people say 25R's, HE2/4's, and VTC's are dangerous?
  • I haven't spent much time on what cells use what chemistry because it usually doesn't matter. Almost all of them are a hybrid chemistry. I call out the few LCO cells I think I've found but they're rare.
  • IMR has just become a generic term for li-ion for most of the Chinese battery companies to put in the wrap. None naybactually be IMR. None of the rewraps are IMR, i.e., LMO chemistry. It's used for almost every hybrid chemistry Chinese cell and rewrap. I was going to ask in one of my upcoming videos whether this was a concern or not for the community. It doesn't affect their performance, and IMR actually isn't a chemistry, but perhaps it's time to push for more accurate chemistry designations on the Chinese cells?
Wow...sorry that was so long. But it's a good start. :)
Awesome Mooch, thanks for coming over and providing the detailed explanation and as always you are the best.

Cheers!

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Johnnytraveler

Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
oh guys... dont get me wrong. those bulk orders are from my client's request even after i show them the moosh chart. they insisted on what they want lol

plus, my order from liionwholesale isnt completed yet as i have not include batts i need to be using for both my mods. still figuring how to calculate my common wattage - get what amp/mah suit best.

*i read moosh's post in the blog link. maybe tomorrow will create an account to access ecig forum in hope mr moosh do provide more detail reports in there...
**its 4.43am here, eye gotta shut though lol...
anyway, thanks again for all your concerns. im very happy and honored!

good night for now bro & sis

Vaper | Tattooist | Diver | Cyclist

PM sent. I'm taking a week of after 1/1/2017. I am going to Malaysia from Vietnam. Where's your shop?

Sent from somewhere in Vietnam.
 

nightshard

It's VG/PG not PG/VG
VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Most rewraps use low grade cells made by one of the known battery manufacturers, but basically we don't know (including mooch) what any of the cells used in any of the rewraps truly are.
Mooch tests them and based on the results their behavior and capacity he estimates which known cell was used.
If Ijoy are using some obscure cell from an obscure Chinese manufacturer then it's not something I would want to use.
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
Wow...where to begin? :)

I think I'll just bullet point my various thoughts...
  • I have been testing batteries as part of my work designing power management electronics for over 20 years. Does that make me an expert? Hell no. But it does mean I have a lot of experience doing it and I do it very well. :)
  • None of the big manufacturers make 26650's anymore because the market is too small. BBC still does, forgot what the letters mean, and makes the decent cell originally used in the Basen, Brillipower, and Efest 4200mAh's.
  • An existing battery manufacturer, there are at least a couple dozen others than the big 5, could easily have seen the hole in the existing 26650 product lines and decided to create the cell used in the iJoy 4200mAh. There doesn't have to be any new technology there to get that performance. Just using what's been developed the past few years and putting it in a 26650 instead of an 18650.
  • While we can't verify the chemistry of any cell without some serious materials analysis there are hints in the discharge graphs and the susceptibility of the cell to damage from overtemperature.
  • ICR/INR/IMR aren't chemistries. They are manufacturer model number prefixes. They are often used for the chemistries we typically associate them with, but not always.
  • ICR is used for lithium-cobalt-oxide (LCO) chemistry, what's used in what we call LiPo's, and for nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) chemistry, i.e. "hybrid" chemistry, what's used in many of the batteries we vape with.
  • But INR is also used for hybrid chemistry cells.
  • It's called hybrid chemistry because it's in between the safer (not safe) lithium-manganese chemistry (LMO) we call IMR and the more volatile LCO chemistry. It's the amount of cobalt that determines whether its volatilty leans toward LMO or LCO. Every hybrid chemistry/battery has a different blend.
  • I'm not sure there are any LMO chemistry cells, called IMR by the manufacturers, used by vapers anymore. NMC, LCA, NCA, LCO...yes. But I'm hard pressed right now to think of a LMO cell right now.
  • The iJoy 4200mAh cell discharges similarly to the hybrid chemistry cells we use all the time, e.g., 25R, HE2/5, HB2/4/6, the VTC's, and others. It does not discharge like a LCO cell, with its flat discharge curve. Is this definitive? No. But it's a good start.
  • LCO isn't a time bomb. And hybrid chemistry cells are used and trusted by vapers all the time. Yes, LCO is more volatile than the hybrid chemistries if you force it into thermal runaway. But that takes a short-circuit. Running the cell hard, very hard, won't do it as the cell will vent first. You have to heat it so fast that it actually can't vent before the temperature rises far enough to cross the thermal runaway threshold.
  • Hybrid cell thermal runaway often isn't a picnic either. That percentage of cobalt it has, while less than LCO cells, still increases their volatility. You can still get bursting cells and fireballs with hybrid cells. But how many people say 25R's, HE2/4's, and VTC's are dangerous?
  • I haven't spent much time on what cells use what chemistry because it usually doesn't matter. Almost all of them are a hybrid chemistry. I call out the few LCO cells I think I've found but they're rare.
  • IMR has just become a generic term for li-ion for most of the Chinese battery companies to put in the wrap. None naybactually be IMR. None of the rewraps are IMR, i.e., LMO chemistry. It's used for almost every hybrid chemistry Chinese cell and rewrap. I was going to ask in one of my upcoming videos whether this was a concern or not for the community. It doesn't affect their performance, and IMR actually isn't a chemistry, but perhaps it's time to push for more accurate chemistry designations on the Chinese cells?
Wow...sorry that was so long. But it's a good start. :)
Really good read! Thanks for the clarification.

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Mooch

Member For 4 Years
Most rewraps use low grade cells made by one of the known battery manufacturers, but basically we don't know (including mooch) what any of the cells used in any of the rewraps truly are.
Mooch tests them and based on the results their behavior and capacity he estimates which known cell was used.
If Ijoy are using some obscure cell from an obscure Chinese manufacturer then it's not something I would want to use.

When both the performance and appearance of the cell (down to using a 10x loupe to compare the top cap shape and metal thickness, top cap seal material, top cap crimp dimensions and tooling marks, top cap metal surface finish, can tooling marks, venting disk configuration and ID marks) match a known Samsung/Sony/LG/Panasonic/Sanyo cell I am pretty certain of which cell is being rewrapped. The cell grade can easily be estimated by any slight shift on capacity or internal resistance as the shape of the discharge curve is still the same.

Can I prove which cell it is? It depends on whether performance and appearance is enough. :)

I haven't seen a rewrap worse than B grade in over a year. To compare to that, sometimed the only OEM cells available from the vendors we use are B grade Samsung/Sony/LG cells. I feel this is what's been happening with the LG HG2 this past year. The internal resistance is a bit higher and the capacity a bit lower than the cells we had access to last year. There's only a small difference between A grade and B grade cells.

While each of us has to decide which cells we are and aren't going to use, we're stuck when it comes to non-18650 cells as there are none made by Samsung/Sony/LG. If we use any non-18650, we're stuck with unknown cells (except for the Basen, Brillipower, Efest 4200's). I can respect that makes using non-18650's a no-go for some.
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Reviewer
When both the performance and appearance of the cell (down to using a 10x loupe to compare the top cap shape and metal thickness, top cap seal material, top cap crimp dimensions and tooling marks, top cap metal surface finish, can tooling marks, venting disk configuration and ID marks) match a known Samsung/Sony/LG/Panasonic/Sanyo cell I am pretty certain of which cell is being rewrapped. The cell grade can easily be estimated by any slight shift on capacity or internal resistance as the shape of the discharge curve is still the same.

Can I prove which cell it is? It depends on whether performance and appearance is enough. :)

I haven't seen a rewrap worse than B grade in over a year. To compare to that, sometimed the only OEM cells available from the vendors we use are B grade Samsung/Sony/LG cells. I feel this is what's been happening with the LG HG2 this past year. The internal resistance is a bit higher and the capacity a bit lower than the cells we had access to last year. There's only a small difference between A grade and B grade cells.

While each of us has to decide which cells we are and aren't going to use, we're stuck when it comes to non-18650 cells as there are none made by Samsung/Sony/LG. If we use any non-18650, we're stuck with unknown cells (except for the Basen, Brillipower, Efest 4200's). I can respect that makes using non-18650's a no-go for some.
Just want to say you are a godsend to the vaping community and thank you for all your hard work

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nightshard

It's VG/PG not PG/VG
VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I haven't seen a rewrap worse than B grade in over a year.

I guess that because of the high demand for rewraps, the manufacturers run out of C grades to sell to the rewrapers so they sell B grades in bulk as well.
Still wouldn't buy rewraps for several reasons:
They are more expensive then the authentics.
There is no guaranty they will be B grades or the same battery they were a week before for that matter.
I don't like being lied to with exaggerated specs.
 

Mooch

Member For 4 Years
I guess that because of the high demand for rewraps, the manufacturers run out of C grades to sell to the rewrapers so they sell B grades in bulk as well.
Still wouldn't buy rewraps for several reasons:
They are more expensive then the authentics.
There is no guaranty they will be B grades or the same battery they were a week before for that matter.
I don't like being lied to with exaggerated specs.

All damn good reasons! I'd never recommend a rewrapped cell where Samsung, Sony, etc., cells are available.
 

r055co

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
All damn good reasons! I'd never recommend a rewrapped cell where Samsung, Sony, etc., cells are available.
I refuse to support companies like eFest, won't even buy their charger, cases etc for the danger they put their customers in.

With my 26650 Mod's was using Basen, was shocked and upset when I was wrapping and found eFest stamped on the battery. I have since went with your recommendation for the iJoy 26650's, loving them.

And yes, thanks for everything Mooch, your work keeping us safe is hugely appreciated.

Cheers

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nightshard

It's VG/PG not PG/VG
VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I refuse to support companies like eFest, won't even buy their charger, cases etc for the danger they put their customers in.
I can relate to that, I know LUC is a good charger but won't buy it on principle, just because it's Efest.

Got to admit that when I first started I had 10A Efest reds, but didn't know any better back then.
 

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