I bought my dad a Juul e-cigarette to see if he’d give up his Marlboros. Here’s what happened

Discussion in 'The Good' started by 5150sick, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    8,998
  2. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2014
    Messages:
    15,860
    good on him...
     
  3. Vape Fan

    Vape Fan More like I am now, than I was before VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,925
    This article, while not stating such, prompted this question.
    We see anti vaping establishment equate absorbed vaping nic % to be the same as smoking nic, example: It's said that 1 Juul pod is the same as smoking a pack of cigs, and I don't believe that's accurate.
    Has any study shown the amount of nic absorbed vaping vs smoking?
     
  4. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    Have you tried a Juul?
     
  5. Vape Fan

    Vape Fan More like I am now, than I was before VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,925
    No.
     
  6. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    Then what is the basis for you belief?
     
  7. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    8,998
    Dr Mike Siegel breaks it down nicely here:
    https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2018/12/truth-campaign-to-kids-better-to-smoke.html

    He did the math and one juul pod comes out to about the amount of nicotine that's in 3 cigarettes.

    But it seems as if the amount doesn't matter as much as the higher absorption rate of nicotine salt eliquid.

    Lowering the PH in cigarette smoke makes it more palatable but creates less of a nicotine abortion rate.

    Vaping is different in that aspect because most of the nicotine in vapor is absorbed through the nose and mouth instead of deep in the lungs like smoke.
     
  8. Vape Fan

    Vape Fan More like I am now, than I was before VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,925
    What is it that I believe?
     
  9. Vape Fan

    Vape Fan More like I am now, than I was before VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,925
    That's what I thought, and read, that since smoke's particles are finer than vapor's and vapor doesn't go [at least as far] into the lungs like smoke, the nic absorbsion couldn't be calculated the same. ie, just because something vape has the same amount of nic as a pack of smokes doesn't mean it's the same as smoking that pack. I see the analogy in some articles, as being the same.
     
  10. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    If you've never used a Juul, then where does your belief come from? Is it some kind of article of faith?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  11. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    I've taken issue with that post by Dr. Siegel before, although I don't recall whether it was on this forum or the other one.

    You can't compare the amount of nicotine in a tobacco cigarette before it's smoked with the amount of nicotine in some quantity of e-liquid. Much of the nicotine in a tobacco cigarette is destroyed by combustion, and some of it escapes as side-stream smoke as well. Vaping does not suffer from these losses. Virtually all of the nicotine in e-liquid is inhaled.

    So what we should be comparing is how much nicotine actually makes it past a smoker's or vapers lips.
     
  12. Vape Fan

    Vape Fan More like I am now, than I was before VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,925
    What belief. Still lookin for what you think I believe in.
     
  13. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    8,998
    There is a lot more in play when it comers to how much nicotine a smoker gets when they smoke.

    There is a huge difference between nicotine abortion rates between smokers because some smokers inhale more deeply and faster and some take a few drags then hold the cigarette until they put it out.

    The same is true with vapers.
    There is a big difference in nicotine abortion rates between people using juul and everything else in vaping.

    This guy explains the difference in absorption rates pretty well.
    https://www.quora.com/Why-is-nicotine-in-e-cigarette-not-absorbed-by-lungs





    Peter W. Meek, Smoker for over 45 years. Vaper for over 5. Voracious reader about nicotine.





    It has to do with the relative sizes of smoke particles and the droplets in the aerosol created by a vaping device. The droplets, while quite tiny, are MUCH larger than the smoke particles. They can’t get as deeply into the parts of the lung where the nicotine can get to the bloodstream (as the oxygen molecules do).

    Because of this, the smoke particles can deliver the nicotine to the bloodstream quite quickly, while the aerosol droplets do so much less efficiently. However, the aerosol droplets can deliver their load of nicotine through the mucous membranes of the throat, mouth and nose, albeit somewhat more slowly. Typically the nicotine from a lungful of smoke reaches the brain in 7–10 seconds while it takes at least 30 seconds for the nicotine absorbed by the mucous membranes to reach the brain.

    This delivery method has some interesting effects: exhaling vapor slowly will extract more nicotine than exhaling quickly; exhaling slowly through the nose will extract more nicotine than exhaling straight through the mouth; exhaling slowly and using the lips to bulge the cheeks while using the tongue to force the vapor out around the inside of the cheeks will extract more nicotine. (All useful techniques to get more nicotine from a low-strength e-juice.)

    BTW, the nicotine molecule is the same size in all cases. It is the size of the nicotine-carrying object (smoke particle or aerosol droplet) which is different. Nicotine is nicotine; it can’t magically change sizes.
     
    Vape Fan, ZombieBob and inspects like this.
  14. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    I agree. But the starting point for analyzing/evaluating that has to be how much nicotine passes the smoker's or vaper's lips during the draw, not how much nicotine is present in an un-burned cigarette. Again, much of the nicotine originally present in a cigarette never makes it to the smoker's lips. This fact makes it disingenuous to compare the amount of nicotine present in some number of un-burned cigarettes with the amount present in, say, a Juul pod.

    I have used a Juul, back in 2015 when they were relatively new. I think their claim that one pod is equivalent to a pack of cigarettes in terms of nicotine satisfaction is not far off.
     
  15. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26,615
    Some of us remember the claims from ythe old cartomizer cigalikes.
    And it was complete bullshit then and I expect that it still is.
    But no never Juuled.

    As far as the nic you wind up absorbing from the vape vs cigs.
     
  16. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    Totally different animal.

    So you also have no evidence, not even an anecdote pertaining to the product in question.
     
  17. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26,615
    Just the word of other posters.
    You have any proof either way?

    And no the outrageous claims are not a totally different animal and abound in other forms in the world of vaping.
    45 amp 18650, wattage that claims that mods cannot meet, etc...

    vaping is kind of like the wild west at this point and most of the vape stuff in the USA is technically prohibited and no claims are enforced or regulated, it is wise to be sceptical of claims.

    We need a 'Mooch' to test such other things in the world of vaping.
    do you believe reviewers claims about the best ever for flavor, etc?
     
  18. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    Only my own experience with the product, which is only anecdotal. I used to smoke 40+ cigs a day. I vape a lot. If I were using Juul, I doubt I could get through two pods per day.
     
    The Cromwell likes this.
  19. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26,615
    Could the high nic level have anything to do with that?

    the how many cigs = a pod does not seem to vary much in the claims regardless of nic level in the juice.

    and yes the Juul is a high octane beast and would only work for me for emergency stealth vaping as it would not satisfy the rest of my smoking/vaping urges.
     
  20. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    8,998
    It really depends.
    If someone sucks on one from the time they wake up until they time they go to bed like some do with subohm tanks I can't see 0.7ml's of eliquid lasting.
    But if someone hit's it a few times every hour or so a pod could last quite a while.

    If someone told me they were going through three pods a day i'd believe them.
    Next i'd recommend that they refill the pods because it's very simple and you can get at least four refills out of each pod.
     
    The Cromwell likes this.
  21. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    Right, but even if someone did go through three Juul pods in a day, that doesn't mean one pod isn't equivalent to a pack of cigs. I means there are people who smoke (or smoked) three packs a day, no? ;)
     
  22. SteveS45

    SteveS45 Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years ECF Refugee

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    15,187
    When I quit Cold Turkey using the eCigs Brand I vaped so much I got Nic Sick many times with 24-36MG e-Liquid. That is what it took for me to get passed the cigarette withdrawals. But I made the decision to not buy another pack or smoke a grubbed smoke. Was hard as kicking drugs but I did it. This is from 1st hand experience from a pack a day Marlboro Red smoker for almost 40 years. In my humble opinion you have to want it to achieve it.
     
  23. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26,615
    It's not true.

    It doesn't take an advanced math degree to fact-check this claim. We just need two pieces of information:

    1. The most highly concentrated Juul pod (there are two concentrations) contains 40 mg of nicotine.

    2. An average cigarette contains about 12 mg of nicotine.

    Thus, a Juul pod contains the amount of nicotine equivalent to that in about 3 cigarettes (not 20 cigarettes).

    Moreover, there is nothing terribly unique about the Juul in terms of nicotine content. There are hundreds of varieties of e-liquids on the market that contain 24 mg of nicotine per cartridge, with a cartridge delivering about 200 puffs, similar to a Juul pod. So in reality, the Juul contains less than twice the amount of nicotine present in many other electronic cigarettes.


    http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2018/12/truth-campaign-to-kids-better-to-smoke.html
     
  24. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    What part of, "most of that 12 mg is destroyed by combustion and never makes it to the smoker's lips" do you not understand? ;)
     
    SteveS45 likes this.
  25. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26,615
    You of course have data to support that?

    I know personally I can vape 12 mg of nic and not get the nic buzz that I get from 1 marlboro.
     
  26. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,745
    Countless studies have been done showing the amount of nicotine absorbed from a cigarette is on the order of 1-2 mg. Some are lower, a few are higher.

    Really, you can vape an entire ml of 12mg, or half a ml of 24mg in the time it would take to smoke a Red and not get a cig's worth if nic fix?

    Perhaps you're conflating some the other effects from a cigarette that aren't directly related to the nicotine. CO displacing oxygen in your blood will give you a buzz. Then there's the MAOIs in smoke...
     
    SteveS45 likes this.
  27. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26,615
    After more research I will agree to the 1-2 mg per cig absorbed from smoking a cig.
    However I still think the 1 pod = 1 pack of cigs is garbage.

    Any data on the nic absorbed from vaping?
    If one vapes 12 mg how much is absorbed?
     
  28. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26,615
    I know that I can vape a 4 ml tank of 2mg and go to sleep. when I smoked, a bedtime cig would keep me awake for a while.
    Had to not smoke for a couple of hours before falling asleep.
     
  29. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26,615
    Electronic cigarettes (ECs) are nicotine delivery devices that are proposed as tobacco harm reduction products to smokers. Nicotine delivery from ECs is potentially important in their efficacy as smoking substitutes. Herein, nicotine delivery from using a new-generation EC device (variable-wattage, set at 9 W) was evaluated, comparing experienced (vapers) with naïve users (smokers). Twenty-four vapers and 23 smokers participated to the study. They were asked to obtain 10 puffs in 5 minutes and then use the EC ad lib for 60 more minutes (total duration of use: 65 minutes). An 18 mg/mL nicotine-containing liquid was used. Blood samples were obtained at baseline, 5-minutes and every 15 minutes thereafter, while number of puffs and average puff duration were recorded. Although at baseline both groups had similar plasma nicotine levels, smokers consistently exhibited lower levels at all time-periods; at 5-minutes the levels were lower by 46%, while during the subsequent period they were lower by 43% (at 65-minutes) to 54% (at 20-minutes). Both groups took similar number of puffs, but smokers had average puff duration of 2.3 s compared to 3.5 s in vapers. Even in vapers, plasma nicotine levels at 5 minutes were lower than those observed after smoking 1 tobacco cigarette.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4469966/

    Note: the study does show higher nic levels from vaping vs smoking at higher power levels.
    But higher power levels are not typical pod systems.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 11:07 AM
  30. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,282
    If you use dentures that also has a noticeable effect in the absorption rate while vaping, not any with smoking that I ever noticed.
     
    The Cromwell likes this.

Share This Page

Close This Message