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Discussion in 'FDA REGULATIONS DISCUSSION' started by Catalyst, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. DavidOH

    DavidOH Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years

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    That's the one the my online juice vender (HHV) is setting up. Stopped at the B/M I've been going to since they opened and had to show my ID when I went in. Don't think they're doing any juice tasting but I only buy one juice from them so it doesn't matter. The rest of my juice comes from Heather's Heavenly Vapes. This is going to hurt a lot of B/Ms.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2016
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  2. gingerbread

    gingerbread Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years

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    Oh goodie which ones? I am a juice cabin & Jax vanilla custard vapes kind of gal. l hope they still produce the larger bottles.
     
  3. hashtagvapemail

    hashtagvapemail VU Vendor VU Vendor Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year

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    Yeah, I think we're all (on the ecommerce side) struggling to figure out the best way to do this. The way that ensures we don't accidentally sell to aminor and presents the least friction in the sales process.

    We're looking into a service (3rd party) that performs id verification inline with the sale and then keeps a record for the given customer so they only have to do it once. We tried the getting pictures of ID so far, and that's been a nightmare to say the least. Takes way too much time, it's way too much to keep up with, and it puts the onus on us to determine if the ID is fake. I'm not certain if the FDA auditors sent in a fake id whether or not we'd be liable for not knowing it was fake (seems like entrapment to me, but who knows these days, and I'm not willing to bet the fines on it).

    We were going to just require signature verification and ID check on all the deliveries too, but so far we've just been checking ID (which some states have required of us before the 8th already) and then shipping only to the address on the ID.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2016
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  4. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    That sounds reasonable to me, though I can imagine the nightmare of keeping track of ID/selfies, whatever it is.

    How does the online wine industry do it? How about online tobacco sellers?
     
  5. hashtagvapemail

    hashtagvapemail VU Vendor VU Vendor Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year

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    I agree with you, I think that this is the best way to do it from an etailer perspective. Although the one thing I'm unclear on is if the USPS doesn't check the ID or just glances at it, who's liable for that fine? I can't believe it's the USPS, and I don't think you could make any kind of claim against them if they didn't check correctly and you got fined.
    Online tobacco sellers have to comply with something called the PACT act, which thank goodness we don't have to yet.

    If they push PACT onto us, we may just shut down; the level of compliance required by that act is something that you realistically can't do without the staff for a real compliance department (honestly it's an awful lot just to deal with what we have to now). It's pretty complex to actually do it right. The problem is not just the cost of trying to do it right (which most companies don't have the cash to cover compliance attorneys, etc.), but also the cost when you inevitably mess up. When you have all the right processes in place and someone goofs and puts the wrong label on the wrong package, or whatever. You have to be able to weather those fines when they come, because if you do enough business, you will not do it perfectly every time, despite your best efforts.

    I looked into it quite a bit for us, because that's where I thought we'd be post deeming, but I asked the FDA directly through their help line and at this point we do not have to comply with PACT. The impact for PACT on the consumer is not huge, but it is for the business.
     
  6. Mattp169

    Mattp169 Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Vape Media

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    in regards to who is at fault

    it is 100% USPS fault

    heres the thing
    if you ship something to me in this mannner
    you have done everything realistically possible for you to check id
    if USPS fucks up
    how does the fDA know for sure and can prove it unless they are setting up a stingand then the yonly proved that USPS postal carriar did not do their job. They didnt prove you did anything worng
    you could then bring a complaint against USPS and win easily

    and we are all talking hypothetcally out our asses here on both sides of this

    you would have to read the terms of services for that delivery method
    I have had stuff sent to me and the postal carriar was very strict on it


    but to me thi sis the simplist option
    you could also offer tehse online age checks for those 18-20
    or for those unable oto sign for and s how id themselves
    but i dont think you would have to do both
    if i were a retailer i woul dinvestigate this route since its cheap and easy

    becuase even those who say they cant be home to sign
    they can pick it up at the post office
    might just take an extra day or 2 to get there
     
  7. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    Look at this: online wine retailers do not even require the stupid four-digit SSN# bullshit, just has to be signed for by a person over the age of 21.

    This is a screen shot from wine.com

    Screen Shot 2016-08-14 at 8.40.49 AM.png
     
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  8. hashtagvapemail

    hashtagvapemail VU Vendor VU Vendor Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year

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    It is very difficult, and the problem is that really, when you look at the way the regulation is written, it says that you can't sell to minors. Not that you can't ship to minors. So for my money, I'd bet if you had ID check on the shipment and one went through it would still be on the business to pony up the cash (because the FDA isn't going to sue or fine the USPS, they're just the shipper).

    I actually asked this question straight up to the FDA on their hotline back when they were still answering (I think they're too busy now to answer most questions, which is not a good sign). And the answer was very interesting, I was asking if we needed to provide some form of auditable evidence that everything shipped was to someone of legal age. They stated only and simply that we could not sell to anyone under 18, and that they placed no requirements beyond that. Which to me means on the other side that any evidence you make of 'best intentions' or 'best efforts' to ensure you don't sell to anyone under 18 simply will not matter. There is no process they are willing to hold up and say, 'if you do these things, we consider that a reasonable effort to ensure that you don't sell to anyone under 18 and you're in the clear'. They will simply nab you if they can with fines ; if they offer no process then you cannot forward any legal defense, because there is no process that is the standard - the standard is that it cannot happen ever.

    To me this meant they would be doing age compliance shops at various stores and on various sites to see if they can catch someone shipping to someone under 18 (we've had a few try already, shot them all down). Again, not that they require any paper trail (which could give you some legal shield), just that they can't catch you doing it. Which to me means that if they catch you doing it, they don't care why it got to the minor; only that it got there and in that case it's your (the business who made the sale) fault. That's my take, but honestly, age compliance isn't that tough to get through, but like I said, we're probably going to go through a third party as we've caught a few ID's sent to us that I simply did not buy at all. So we're just going to confirm them all prior to sale.

    The nervous nelly in me wants to do id check/signature at the door as well, but I'm super cautious. It wouldn't take many violations to make this into a situation that could shut us down, particularly if our process is wrong and there's a lag between the violation and notification to us (meaning that another 3-4 violations or more could occur before we had a chance to close whatever gap we had) because the fines are very, very progressive. We are already set up to weather some, but it would not take long before they really took a toll.
     
  9. Lefty

    Lefty Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year Member For 5 Years

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    Seems to be a wide approach to it at this point. While I think SSN is not something I am willing to provide I'd hate to see someone closed down over these regs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  10. Artemis

    Artemis Gold Contributor Member For 5 Years

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  11. Lefty

    Lefty Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year Member For 5 Years

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    Yeah I mentioned them earlier in the thread. I was thinking more of those not using any third party. I've seen one with only an 18 and over check box. You would assume it would be shipped in a way to verify on delivery though they don't say so.
     
  12. smacksy

    smacksy Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I won't order from them either..I'm not putting my SS# out there, even if it's only the last four digits..
    Bought some in-house juice yesterday from my local B&M..it was business as usual..I live in SoCa..just sayin

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
     
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  13. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    The problem is that usps requires someone 21 or older to sign for the shipment. The cost added to Priority is 4.75 making delivery at least 10.75.
    Some argue they won't pay the shipping for that kind of service. This also leaves out the 18-20 olds that can legally buy vapor products.
    So the answers are not easy.. Unless there is a service I do not know about all must be 21 years of age to accept delivery..
     
  14. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Veradad does not check for CA residents that must be 21. Might be wrong, but they only required 18 years.

    Several other states have separate laws like Texas, which require a signed affidavit along with picture ID that we must keep for 4 years on file.. So this whole thing is not easy for online retailers and requires customized approaches to stay in business.

    IMHO - Your identity can be hacked much easier than providing the last 4 digits of your ss# to be honest. It happens everyday with far less info..

    I would also agree that it is an invasion of my privacy, but it is the law of the land now.

    next time we all vote we need to make informed decisions on who we vote for.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  15. Lefty

    Lefty Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year Member For 5 Years

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    Well total shipping was $4.13 so it appears to be standard shipping. I'm not suggesting others approach it this way, just hoping they're doing enough to stay out of hot water.
     
  16. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Most likely you wont have to sign for it since the charge for adult signage is $4.75 or $4.95 by itself added to the other change for shipping which wuld be priority or express shipping fees. . Let us know...
     
  17. Deucesjack

    Deucesjack VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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  18. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    interesting but vapejoose states:
    We use Bluecheck and can not close the popup and check out bypassing the process. We have tried and find it is not possible to bypass from our website.
    Not saying it is perfect, but 3rd party verification is the law.. We must follow it to stay in business.. Sure we will be happy to take a better system but there doesnt seem to be one at this time. So are they not going to sell online? I missed it if they are closing..

    1. The BlueCheck plugin is easily bypassed by closing the plugin, allowing customers to checkout without providing age verification. This essentially makes the entire service worthless.
     
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  19. Deucesjack

    Deucesjack VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    Exactly, it looks like they're just saying fuck it we're not doing it. At least that's what I got from it.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
  20. hashtagvapemail

    hashtagvapemail VU Vendor VU Vendor Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year

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    Hmm, that's interesting, I'm wondering if bluecheck sends back in a confirmation number on the ID check, that way you'd know if it was bypassed and could simply refuse the order until verified. Need to check into that, we're looking into Bluecheck right now for our process...
     
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  21. hashtagvapemail

    hashtagvapemail VU Vendor VU Vendor Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year

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    Yeah, I'm sketchy on that stuff too, I don't like giving out that kind of information. I'd prefer not even having access to the ID's and having a third party that is trusted (because that's all they do) handle all that personally identifying information.

    I don't like asking for photos of IDS, and I definitely would not feel comfortable asking for a last 4, and a copy of an ID, and a current address. That's all more than enough information to do a whole lot of damage in most cases.

    Although we do have to do something to ensure it's done right and minors can't buy it. We're putting in place the best system or set of systems we can (we're already working on a few ways to do this) to keep this very smooth for customers, but also ensure that we don't ship to anyone under 18. It won't be perfect, but I think done correctly we can get it pretty tight with the right combination of systems in place, and still continue to offer free shipping to most customers (we're working out how to do all of this right now, and for now we're just eating the shipping on everything), if not all. That's the goal at least...

    But we also have set numbers of violations and action plans around them if we mess up and get to that point. By the time you hit the higher numbers of violations, the fines are so high that you basically have no wiggle room and might as well close up shop.

    The fines max out (after a set number of total violations) at $11,000 per violation I believe. Wouldn't take too many of those to ruin your day and bankrupt your company (if you survived the ride up to that point that is). It's got to be right, or you're pretty much done.

    Everyone should be paying very close attention to this because age compliance shops will be happening in both brick and mortars and online. Online has by far the tougher time with this one I believe, because I don't think that the compliance shoppers (secret shoppers who try to buy a product not intended for minors to see if you check ID, or as a minor to see if you'll let it slide) are legally allowed to show you a fake ID, but I'm not certain about that.

    Anyone who knows someone that actually owns a liquor store could probably enlighten us on that, because I honestly don't know.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
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  22. Deucesjack

    Deucesjack VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    The next question is do they have the man power in place for enforcement or are all these rules and regulations just a huge paper tiger? I don't know?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk
     
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  23. hashtagvapemail

    hashtagvapemail VU Vendor VU Vendor Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year

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    To my understanding (and I AM NOT trying to get political here at all, just stating facts) the FDA got a huge boost in budget when Obama came into office.

    Do you guys remember the FDA crackdown on farm to table restaurants? Basically, you would go to a farm, they would literally pick the plants out of the ground, or get the milk from that cow that morning, and cook you a meal with it. You literally went there specifically knowing that was what you were getting, that was the draw to go there. Once Obama came in he bumped up their budget and they finally had funds to send out the troops, and they did. They shut them all down because the food hadn't gone through the required government checks before sale. It was a big deal, and seemed a little crazy and overzealous because this wasn't food sent to a grocery store, this was fed to people who came there knowing it could not have been checked, going there specifically to eat it straight out of the ground.

    I am not certain what the total number of farm to table deaths there were which spurred on that level of response...

    This is a much larger market, with much more money available for the coffers from violations, I am quite certain that they will be checking, and have likely already started in many places. I don't know if we've been hit yet or if it was just stupid kids, but we've had a few already that either would not send in a picture ID, or sent one that was quite obviously a fake. It's going to happen, everyone needs to be on point with it.
     
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  24. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    They have an admin area you log into as the vendor that shows the name of the person verified along with date and time..
     
  25. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Bluecheck needs a better way to contact them. A ticket system is not imho the best way. I would like a phone number.
     
  26. Train

    Train Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I'd have to dig to verify, but I am fairly certain that is is ILLEGAL on a Federal level to require the use of SS# like this. I believe they can ask, but can not require it. It is a number intended for use to identify you for SOCIAL SECURITY - and not intended as a general all-purpose unique ID number.
    I could be wrong, but I think they HAVE to have an alternate method of verification or id assignment. May not be as EASY, but I think they have to offer another option.
     
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  27. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    It seems to me that showing an ID upon delivery would qualify as third party verification
     
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  28. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    It would seem so but the FDA doesn't want any vapor products sold. So, it is only a questions as to how hard can we make it for vapor companies to exist. Sad but true.

    the Problem is with signing and showing age is you leave out all the 18-20 year olds that can legally purchase but the Post Office USPS only will allow the delivery if the person is 21 or older to sign for the package.. That is a problem..
     
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  29. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I dont believe it is a violation as they are asking for the last 4 digits.. They are using multiple sources as age, name and address to also verify along with the last 4 digits. As to legality, I don't know. Not a lawyer but seems that since they are NOT asking for the entire number it isn't applicable to some sort of law violation.
     
  30. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    If people won't mind paying $12 for shipping and that would suffice as verification (to FDA) (dont see why it wouldnt) I would be in favor. Just dont think folks will want to pay the $12 for shipping.. We cant eat the shipping as we almost sell wholesale now..
     
  31. RBVapes

    RBVapes Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    We've have also looked at Option B which would be simple enough but the consumer will like it. USPS only offers adult signature of USPS Priority Mail. So instead of a $3 S&H charge you're looking at $12 which with the margins most e-commerce sites run in not something they'll be able to afford. Smaller just-in-time purchases would be something of the past for most consumers as the S&H would equal or exceed most orders (think consumables like coils and 15-30ml juice bottles).
     
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  32. RBVapes

    RBVapes Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    The law stipulation is just that SSN cannot be used / required for proof of ID. They last four digits just provides a higher level of accuracy when consulting online databases is all. Frankly, it's not something I'm comfortable with as a vendor due to PCI privacy concerns for which vendors are technically liable and why we go through certification annually. There are services that are good enough (though not perfect) that don't use SSN but require custom coding to use and frankly are expensive but we have no choice. The cheaper of the services at $80-100 a month plus .50 per verification.
     
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  33. Lefty

    Lefty Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year Member For 5 Years

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    Standard delivery. I've made another purchase from a different vendor who seems to be taking the same approach. Shrug.
     
  34. Mattp169

    Mattp169 Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Vape Media

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    the fda only said DO NOT SELL TO ANYONE UNDER 18
    so its on the online vendors to do it
    so everyone is different
    some dont care baout last 4
    or this or that
    so offer multiple choices
    choice 1. adult signature restricted $5.95 additional fee
    choice 2. bluecheck
    choice 3 jump on skype video call and see the person...if they look under 27 have them hold their id up to the camera..then they can see you ar enot writing anything down. give that person a special copon code or something to put in the notes section of order to verify it is them sending the order
    choice 4. email a selfie with id
    etc etc etc

    In today's day modern age it can be done...it might be time consuming it might be more expensive
    But once you verify their age once, have a system in place so it dont need done again and its a one time thing
    you give people wnough choices so they are comfortable doing business with you, you win a customer form another site who might not make it as convenient for the customer, and then word of mouth brings more customers

    why do stores sell 20 different brands of mods? becuase we as consumers like choices and there sno 1 catch all mod for everyone.
    so why try and do a 1 catch all solution for age verification
     
  35. Time

    Time Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    First and foremost, cost.

    Each process has a cost associated with it. Multiple processes carry multiple costs. And time.

    By the time you add the additional costs to meet regulation, you may as well buy at a B&M because the costs will be close enough together that you might as well have it now, rather than wait for it in the mail.

    That is what regulation does. It increases costs. Regulation is the Democrats hidden tax on the poor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
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  36. Artemis

    Artemis Gold Contributor Member For 5 Years

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    .
    I can buy tobacco without giving up my last four digits.Why is this hard for ecig vendors?
    http://www.pipesandcigars.com/help/privacy-policy/#age-verification

    myfreedomsmokes uses veratad and not invasive. Looks like they are on my list. At another vaping forum they have a list of vendors and what verification system they are using. Kinda useful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
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  37. Ms. Trixy

    Ms. Trixy Took The Road Less Traveled...got lost. VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    All seems sneaky, big brother and a huge intrusion of privacy. I'm going to take down all vape related social media posts. I'll hang out here, but FB, Instagram, etc. will all be taken down if possible. Considering my inventory, I find it prudent.
     
  38. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    I'd love to see a complete list of vendor NOT using that blue check.

    I really don't need to buy anything that only vapes shops have, possibly forever, but would like to keep the door open.
     
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  39. RBVapes

    RBVapes Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Just an FYI this is technically incorrect. Even though liquor stores do it, they're supposed to validate at EVERY purchase. I have two friends that own sports pubs and they've been fined as an underage "plant" got through once with a convincing enough fake ID and then came in the next day (wasn't checked) and whammo they got hit with an $1000 fine. Personally, once I get a working service (which outside of BlueCheck are looking at $2000-4000 in setup and custom coding) we'll likely only do the once per person, but we'll have to see how it plays out.
     
  40. Doots

    Doots VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Bluecheck is a startup company that will probably change as it grows. I think they have been overwhelmed by the number of companies wanting to use them as they are the only company I have seen that has a reasonable startup cost.. I am sorry but we do not have 5 grand to put down on software and then 80-100 bucks a month plus .50 cents per check that some companies want to charge. Is not worth staying in this business...
     
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  41. wbrock

    wbrock

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    Its really easy to get around the ID requirements.....................SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL B&M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  42. PhilTBA

    PhilTBA Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year

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    That I know of, Aerovape Ltd, ChuffStuff & Molejuice have no plans to stop using 30ml bottles mate. :)
     
    gingerbread likes this.
  43. Lefty

    Lefty Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year Member For 5 Years

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    ID requirement for B&M is the same as online. The difference is that you're standing in front of them when presenting your ID so no selfies unless the sales person thinks you're hot.;)
     
  44. Carmmond

    Carmmond Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I would if they didn't charge almost 3 times what you can get it online for for every item in the store. I can understand they charge more because it's a brick-and-mortar but three times on a mod is just ridiculous.
    Now I realize this is in my area if you have good stores around you that don't try to bend you over on every item then yes I would support them.
     
  45. budynbuick

    budynbuick Member For 3 Years Member For 2 Years Member For 1 Year

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    They won;t get any of my money!!! No way, no how.
    Keith (who don;t need-em any how:wave:)
     
  46. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    I live in too far away from a real B&M to make that practical - like 300 miles away

    A coffee shop here in my town started selling a few Vapor-Fi items. I'd like to support them but vapor-fi? Nahhh
     
  47. Time

    Time Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    No. The difference is the B&M does not make a copy and keep records. That's a key difference.
     
    Lefty and JuicyLucy like this.
  48. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    Or ask for SSN# info
     
  49. MC5

    MC5 Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I suspect many of us overlooked the impact of age verification on our post 8/8 vaping choices.
    The stuff is still out there, but now you have to put a bit more skin in the game and open yourself up to more scrutiny than you may want.
    Definitely inhibiting for me in the online buys.
     
    JuicyLucy likes this.
  50. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    Yep.

    Can't tell you how glad I am that I stockpiled as I refuse to give up that much info so many places are demanding and I do not have easy access to an actual B & M.

    After reading this http://www.clivebates.com/documents/FDAresponse.pdf (first posted by @inspects) I am very confident I made the right decision.
     
    Deucesjack likes this.

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