Future of Batteries

[Vaping PBR]

Want to open a discussion and figured a good place to open discussion.

Been talking to a battery reseller about the recent development of 26650 batteries and why the AMP limit is getting lower and lower but people are saying they can do 50AMP or 60AMp etc when they are actually rated for 7-10 AMPS.

This is their response to the discussion.

"El. rule of thumb: higher mAh, lower Amps.All 26650 are very good up to 7A, some 10Amps. Even Sony isn't very good at 25Amps. I know that new 26650 mods are coming, but as we previously said to other vapers. Mod development is going in wrong direction (battery). Manufacturers are not developing 26650 batts anymore, because power tools, and auto industry aren't using them. 2x 18650 is much better for vaping, it is harder for machine shops, but they've made easy money Now is time to do some serious CNC work."

So are we going to see the death and short lived life of 26650 and a new life to dual 18650's? It appears battery resellers and manufactures are pushing and wanting us to go that route.

 

[VaporJoe]

I'm going to say no because 26650s haven't had the the attention 18650s have. Lets not forget most 18560s are in Laptops and they get constant attention because they want the laptop to last longer on a single charge. The 26650 has only recently gotten a lot of attention from us and we are bound to see more tech out of that battery soon. There is a lot more room to play there. Lets not forget about the 32650

 

[Zac]

i think form factor alone of a single 26650 versus stacked/dual 18650 would have to play a part too. although ive seen some shit lol anyways, i think it may take some time but the 26650's will eventually get on par with anything out there and then like joe said the 32***'s will rear their ugly heads.Joe called it almost a year ago, this is the year of the 26650, and all the ones i see in shops and posted online seems to agree

 

[VapingCuban]

Yes definitely the year of the 26650!

 

[Cessnapix]

Is this because they are dumping the unwanted 26650 onto the vape market because they no longer want them for tools and trying to deplete a surplus?

 

[Scuba-Matt]

I don't think we'll see the 26650's go away anytime soon. A lot of new high end flash lights are using them. I still haven't seen a 32650 except for pictures.

 

[Zamazam]

Is this because they are dumping the unwanted 26650 onto the vape market because they no longer want them for tools and trying to deplete a surplus?

That's what being done with the MNKE 26650's, they haven't been made for 4-5 years and the battery distributiors are putting the remaining stock for sale.

I opened up a dead powerpack from my battery powered impact drill, it had 4 MNKE's in it.

 

[Toyotaslave]

I'd like to think that with a multi-billion dollar industry WE have turned vaping into we could sway the battery manufacturers. May be a pipe dream. I dont see 32mm getting attention any time soon, but I feel like the 26mm battery market could be hugely dictated by our usage. The million dollar question is how do we get wheat we want from battery manufacturers?

 

[CaFF]

I don't have much in the way of conjecture on the future, so here's some fun figures from my new batteries:

Samsung INR18650-25R 2500mah 20A NCA

Specification
Rechargeable Li-ion Power Battery Cell
High power battery cell
High temperature resistance PET

Technical Parameter
Model: 18650
Material: Li-ion
Voltage: 3.7V
Capacity: 2500mAh
Inner Resistance: 13mΩ
Discharging rate: 20A
* Nominal discharge capacity: 2500mah (250mA, 2.5V discharge)
Maximum continuing discharging current: 20A
Dimension: Height 65 mm, Diameter 18 mm
Weight: 42g

Application: R/C hobby, Power Tools, R/C helicopter, HID Torch, DC Power Tools and other high rate digitals.

In tests, I couldn't find it, but it should be between these two:

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR18650-20R 2000mAh (Green) UK.html

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR18650-29E 2900mAh (Blue) UK.html


What I can say is they kick the crap out of my VTC3 's and don't even get warm.
Perhaps not the most powerful, but the balance of capacity to power is about perfect for me.

I don't know much about this NCA - LiNiCoAlO2 chemistry, but I like it.

 

[Cessnapix]

I'd like to think that with a multi-billion dollar industry WE have turned vaping into we could sway the battery manufacturers. May be a pipe dream. I dont see 32mm getting attention any time soon, but I feel like the 26mm battery market could be hugely dictated by our usage. The million dollar question is how do we get wheat we want from battery manufacturers?

My guess is you will find the most uptodate, and best technology is still classified and used in specific applications only. These large companies support universitys and other private labs with grant money all the time for new battery chemestry. I think you will find it is a smaller more competetive world than we all realize. It takes time and lots of money to get from the lab to a container that is thrown in a tool. And then the question becomes is the billion dollar vaping community big enough to make a buck from?

 

[Vaping PBR]

This discussion by the way was with one if not the biggest distributor of flashlight batteries in the United States. If they are seeing the market dry up on 26650 and considering Sony and others have also gotten out of the market already.

 

[vapenator]

 

[Roger Schaeffer]

http://*****/2JNXCQ future of li ion baterries

 

[Roger Schaeffer]

MNKE 26650Continuous Discharge Amps20 ampMaximum Discharge Amps30 amp (60 amp pulse) C rating 18.75c 0.3Safe Ohm to run

 

[Vaping PBR]

See that is another issue though people go off Max Discharge Amps and Max Continious Discharge Amps.

The only reason you should even care about Amps is to make sure your coil is within those limits but Amps aren't even the most important thing about a battery.

The Internal Impedance is the most important thing you could ever consider of a battery.

Let's say you rent a Uhaul and it goes to 120 mph but most have a governor in them that only let you go to 60 mph that is exactly what happens in batteries.

The higher mOhms the Internal Impedance is in a battery it will not supply the load the battery has while the lower the mOhms of Internal Impedance in the battery it will supply more of the load the battery has.

Lets say for example using random #'s just to explain:

Battery 1 has .88mOhms while Battery 2 has .22MOhms. and both are charged to 4.18 volts

Battery 1 out of the 4.18 volts will only be able to supply 3.9 volts while Battery 2 since it's Internal Impedance is lower will be able to supply 4.08 volts out of the 4.18 volts.

People just look at the amps of the battery and nothing else and really missing out on what makes a battery actually perform.

Make sure your amps are safe but really look for the best battery in your amp range you need to be safe but also with the lowest internal impedance.

 

[Cessnapix]

Well how is the average person that is not an electrical engineer suppose to know all this? All we here about is AMPS, amps amps.

Let just say for grins, and correct me if I am wrong to make it easier for the rest of us please!

Unless you are cloud chasing; if you go by the safe vaping chart you will be fine??????

CHART

If you are cloud chasing; learn that batteries need to be adjusted for impedance some how????? You didnt explain how you got the end result.

Thank you!

 

[Garemlin]

And then comes the 42120 mod. LOL Imagine the size of that beast. Look how tiny the 18650 looks comparatively in the pic.

 

[UncleRJ]

I keep wondering when someone will come out with an 18350 with a larger than 800mAh rating. And I mean an actual rating not mislabeling

 

[Celcius666]

Now that will be cool UncleRJ, I will definitely buy some of those if they came out one Daym.

 

[Savage_46]

And then comes the 42120 mod.

In a few years, we'll be able to use our mods as legit personal defense batons.

 

[Cessnapix]

Is there a reason why cell phone and rectangular camera batteries are not used? For box mods a couple could be wired together in series with the battery life of an MVP2. Most of them are Li-ion but use a safe fuse

 

[Hobby Kid]

Perhaps the future of vape should be with lipos, square or round. They can be very high in capacity and c ratings

 

[VapedCrusader]

I keep wondering when someone will come out with an 18350 with a larger than 800mAh rating. And I mean an actual rating not mislabeling

I want the same thing!!!! I love smaller mods.. but the short life is a killer..

 

[Cessnapix]

The 18500/490 is a happy medium and about all I use at this time.

The only 18350 worth buying is the AW irregardless of mah rating! Unless I am missing something.

I hear the Torchy 18350 from the UK are the best but can't get my hands on any.

@Hobby Kid - Good point. I keep forgetting about the battery packs in my rc heli. I cant fly the damn thing so it is packed away. I think mine are 9v li-ion though, but most have converted to the lipo it seems!

 

[Hobby Kid]

@Cessnapix I thought the rc-ers transitioned straight from ni-mh to lipo. Torchy is ok. He states on his listings the outcomes of his battery tests but they haven't always been accurate when I've received them and tested them myself. I know of other sellers that have quality batteries but they still have some batts that don't meet the mark. I think torchy boy is hyped because people heard about him and didn't keep looking. Sometimes vapers make their home with one or two sellers and that's it. I haven't found a seller yet that only has the best and nothing less. That's no problem. I just want them to actually say if their thing under performs

 

[Cessnapix]

@Hobby Kid - Yes You are Correct! Sorry they where NI-mh then to lipo!

Good to know torchy is nothing special. I had heard that in the 18350 size they where better than AW. It appears that size has something to do with one brand better than the other????

All I use are IMR.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Hobby Kid]

@Hobby Kid - Yes You are Correct! Sorry they where NI-mh then to lipo!

Good to know torchy is nothing special. I had heard that in the 18350 size they where better than AW. It appears that size has something to do with one brand better than the other????

All I use are IMR.

Thanks for the info!

That's what it is. You won't get ripped off though. So whether you're buy from home or away, I still stick with sellers who have this kind of reputation regardless if they have the occasional dud as you know you're not going to get an 18650 with a 14350 inside.

 

[toughguitar]

Right now the vaping community is being flooded with bigger mods with bigger batteries, to give more milliamps and greater amp limits for cloud chasers. I think its great that we have more options, and that safety is the first concern we have in putting together an enjoyable vape. The technology is already out there to give more power and higher limits to the batteries we already use. It is only a matter of time before manufacturers make these batteries safe for every day use. When this technology is ready and safe to use, you will see a shift with devices getting smaller to accommodate the better technology these batteries have to offer.

 

[Hobby Kid]

Right now the vaping community is being flooded with bigger mods with bigger batteries, to give more milliamps and greater amp limits for cloud chasers. I think its great that we have more options, and that safety is the first concern we have in putting together an enjoyable vape. The technology is already out there to give more power and higher limits to the batteries we already use. It is only a matter of time before manufacturers make these batteries safe for every day use. When this technology is ready and safe to use, you will see a shift with devices getting smaller to accommodate the better technology these batteries have to offer.

I'm surprised lipos never took off the way they should've. With c ratings that high sub ohmers can't compete with. They're very safe in their hard cases. Trouble with the Internet is all it takes are a few disaster pics or some unknowledgable people to pass on their unresearched ideas of something and it turns into a flood of hysterics across forums. If cell phones were only now being introduced and people found out they're lipo batterries inside I've no doubt we'd have posts asking for an imr version