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Dropping as an alternative to vaping - Sublingual

user579

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I've posted this on ecf, they deleted it :D

Sublingual nicotine. Another option.

For those that don't know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration

Not sure it's been posted before. I've only been doing this for about 14 months and I thought I'd post what I've learnt.

So I got bored of vaping but still wanted nicotine.
I remembered gum and sprays did not work so I thought this idea would fail. It didn't. Probably because it's more quickly absorbed than gum and not sprayed. The target is under the tongue and maybe some in front of gums, like snus.

20-30mg/ml nic in either water or some VG with a very small amount of any flavour. In water absorbs better and gives a quicker hit.
For every mg of nicotine, add half a mg of citric acid. You can increase from half to 75% if you prefer. I'd rather it be a little alkaline so there is no excess citric acid to erode teeth so I use 50%. It also feels better.

so 10ml of juice at 30mg/ml of nicotine gets (10x30/2) 150mg of Citric Acid.

I usually mix 30ml of 20mg/ml which gets 300mg of Citric Acid.
30x20/2=300

1ml is approximately 30 drops

At 20mg/ml, 1 drop of juice is about 0.66.mg of nicotine
At 30mg/ml, 1 drop of juice is about 1mg of nicotine
40 is 1.3
50 is 1.6
(mg per ml divided by 30 drops[approx] = mg per drop)

That makes it close to the usual gum levels of 1-3mg

The idea is to make it so 1 drop is just enough. 2 drops is a good hit and 3 drops will really hit hard. I've found this works best because there is a minute or two before the nic hits. You have to get use to this. It's very different than vaping or smoking but it some ways it feels better. You must convince yourself the delay is short. I did this by thinking I was at the beach on a warm day the first few times. After that it was associated with administering sublingual nicotine. Drugs can do amazing things.

The citric acid is to balance the pH. This way the nicotine does not give any burning sensation. If it still does it's because your throat has been irritated by vaping. It takes about a day of not vaping for this to go away. Or just try not to swallow it too soon. Or increase citric acid from 50% to 75%

I prefer to mix my nic with water and add a mint leaf. Any flavour for ingestion is good. A coffee bean, vanilla essence, Malibu, cinnamon or whatever . I just stay away from sugar and anything oil based. Sugar bad for teeth. Oil stops absorption.

Vaping flavours only taste good with a lot of VG and minimal PG (no PG is best). At 1% or less I've found very few that tasted good. Cap Vanilla custard. FW Snickers. FLV Coffee. TFA Toasted Almond. A Coconut that I can't remember the brand but it's not FW.
When I say tasted good, I mean ... that's amazing good.

Too much PG over a long period is not a good thing IMO. This is best done with the highest mg nic you can get in VG.

All I carry with me now is a bottle and it lasts a long time. Maybe it'll be useful for others for times when they can't vape, like on a plane or whatever.

This method somehow allows me to get more nic than vaping without feeling strange. It feels different. It's actually really good.

>
You can get cheap pH test strips on ebay. About $1

I think this works best with a pH just under 8. Anywhere from 7-8 is fine to test. See what you think works better

That method will work for those without scales or want to test lemon juice.
 
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AndriaD

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I think I know why ECF deleted it... 20%-30% nic is 200mg-300mg.... definitely not safe. The 100mg that most of us use for DIY is 10% nicotine, and that';s about the strongest that a layman has any business handling without scientific safety wear.

Other than that... the nicotine "addiction" (actually, dependency is a much better term for it) is the SMALLEST aspect of smoking cessation; most of us manage to lessen our nic usage pretty sharply within a year or two of starting to vape. The behavior is the LARGEST reason why vaping works so well, and if you aren't mimicking the behavior... what good is that? Not much, I would think. Maybe for emergencies like you're stuck on a plane for hours, but in that case, gum or patch would probably work just as well -- which is to say, not much, but maybe better than nothing.

Andria
 

AndriaD

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I think maybe this thread oughta be moved to "What NOT to do".... what do you think, moderators?

Andria
 

user579

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I messed up 2-3%
20-30mg

fixed on first post.

Also, don't you think a deleting this post would be strange. People make DIY juice. Why would DIY oral liquid be any different than gum or spray?

It'll just be absorbed a little quicker.
 

AndriaD

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I messed up 2-3%
20-30mg

Which is still a whole decimal place more than most folks around here use -- I've even seen some 1mg users around here in the last few months, which is 1/3 of what I use, 3mg.

Andria
 

JuicyLucy

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Enjoy, but doesn't sound like its for me

Agree with Andria - if I need nic and can't vape, may as well use a patch or gum
 

pulsevape

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when compared to inhaling a burning tube of plant matter into your lungs....a couple of drops of diluted nic under the tounge seems pretty sensible...by comparison.
 

pulsevape

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Which is still a whole decimal place more than most folks around here use -- I've even seen some 1mg users around here in the last few months, which is 1/3 of what I use, 3mg.

Andria
so, what ..I've seen people vaping 30mg of nic salts around here as well..
 

pulsevape

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Another thing. Even when I was vaping for 5 years, I still had one or two smokes a day. Now with this method I don't smoke at all.

Why kill options
yeah..I agree..I mean wtf it's not like vaping is scientifically certified or anything we are all gambeling here... I tend to think it's a good gamble, but I've been wrong before.....I'd like to hear what other people think of this idea..mouth cancer comes to mind, but I don't see how this is much different than nic gum or nic pills...as for ECF...they are a bunch of mentally deranged asswipes.
 
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user579

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I'd like to hear what other people think of this idea..mouth cancer comes to mind,
Nic causing cancer has not been proven. There have been questionable studies. But if nic causes cancer, you'll all get lung cancer from vaping.

Another thing that I learnt from doing this is dropping juice can let a little extra nic hit you throat. When you vape the throat is actually a little irritated so it can feel like it burns. Stop vaping for a day and it does not happen.

Not to be an alarmist but vaping causes extra heat and irritation which can lead to cancer too. Even if the chances are small.
 
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pulsevape

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Nic causing cancer has not been proven. There have been questionable studies. But if nic causes cancer, you'll all get lung cancer from vaping.

Anothing thing that I learnt from doing this is dropping juice can let a little extra nic hit you throat. When you vape the throat is actually a little irritated so it can feel like it burns. Stop vaping for a day and it does not happen.

Not to be an alarmist but vaping causes extra heat and irritation which can lead to cancer too. Even if the chances are small.
so I guess my question is..have you ever just taken a regular say 6mg bottle of flavored e-juice and dropped it...sublingually ...it would accomplish the same thing...or do you think say 6mmg 12 mg...would be over the top and risk toxicity...
 

The Cromwell

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Living is the main cause of cancer.
Dead people do not get it.

And the percentage mess up is the prime reason that this is not a good idea.

But if you like to get a nic buzz then by all means have fun.

Me I just like to not smoke and none of the nic replacement therapies did it for me.
The action of vaping is the final piece of the smoking addiction breaker for me and many more.

No vapiing is not totally risk free but neither is breating polluted air, eating artificial ingredients in food, Cosmetics, etc.
The risk from vaping MAY be as low as many other risks we daily encounter.

And how would we fulfill our vaping shinyitis using the sublingual Nic method?
Vaping is a hobby and fun for many.

Boards like this would have no reason for existing in the sublingual nic world, nor would I have met many of the fine people that I have met.

Me I plan on keeping vaping.
My nic has been down to 1.5 mg/ml for the last 3 months. However if I do not vape I still crave a smoke occasionally.... 40 years of training takes over 3 years to break. That is how long I have been cig free by vaping and how long I had smoked.

Edit:
Actually about 2 weeks till 3 years smoke free. Not even a puff.
 
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pulsevape

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Nic causing cancer has not been proven. There have been questionable studies. But if nic causes cancer, you'll all get lung cancer from vaping.

Another thing that I learnt from doing this is dropping juice can let a little extra nic hit you throat. When you vape the throat is actually a little irritated so it can feel like it burns. Stop vaping for a day and it does not happen.

Not to be an alarmist but vaping causes extra heat and irritation which can lead to cancer too. Even if the chances are small.
Hey, over at ECF there used to be a guy named Dr.MA he is a toxicologist and a helluva a nice guy...you might run it by him...but I applaud your thinking outside the box.in order to help people get off smoking.
 

user579

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have you ever just taken a regular say 6mg bottle of flavored e-juice and dropped it...sublingually
I have. Not strong enough and max VG slows absorption. PG tastes bad

Remember there's about 30 drops per ml.

So 100mg/ml is only 3mg per drop. Not that I'd ever use that. I'm very happy with 20mg/ml which is about 0.66mg/drop

Juice without the citric acid is too alkaline. It'll feel like it's burning. Especially if your mouth is dry or if you just ate something.
You can still try it but it won't be good enough.

The instructions in the first post are how to achieve best results.
XXmg/ml with citric acid to balance pH. In water. Although I may use Malibu next time.
It's different. It's better IMO. I feel great and still laugh sometimes because it's that good. Totally smacked out on nic. Even though it's only at gum levels. Weird
 
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The Cromwell

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Another thing. Even when I was vaping for 5 years, I still had one or two smokes a day. Now with this method I don't smoke at all.

Why kill options
Just the wrong forum for your method.
Kind of like a Druid trying to preach in a Pentecostal church.

Your post won't get deleted here, however do not expect to attract a following of any size.
 

user579

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And how would we fulfill our vaping shinyitis using the sublingual method?
Vaping is a hobby and fun for many

I get that. I enjoyed it too. "Dropping" is just another option.

Some will have no interest, or be afraid :D
Some may use it when they can't vape somewhere.

Like I posted before. It works for me and I've stopped smoking completely after 5 years of vaping and smoking.

It's not the same as gum or spray. It doesn't work unless instructions in first post are followed. It took me a year to work out all that. It is a better feeling than vaping. When I say feeling, I mean the nicotine hit is different. WAY more pleasurable.
Vape away but IMO everyone should try this. It feels gooood.
 

The Cromwell

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It is a better feeling than vaping. When I say feeling, I mean the nicotine hit is different. WAY more pleasurable.
Ahh I get no pleasure from the nic.
Never did even when I vaped 18 mg when I first started.
Different strokes I suppose.
 

user579

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Just the wrong forum for your method.
Kind of like a Druid trying to preach in a Pentecostal church.
Your post won't get deleted here, however do not expect to attract a following of any size.

:D I get it.

It would be better in the DIY forum IMO. I don't expect many to follow. I was expecting a few hardcore DIY's to test it out. They'd know what they are doing and would experience the same feeling I have now and think fuck, this is good.
 

pulsevape

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Just the wrong forum for your method.
Kind of like a Druid trying to preach in a Pentecostal church.

Your post won't get deleted here, however do not expect to attract a following of any size.
yeah.... we didn't declare you the high priest of the forum...unless the Mods have a problem with it he can post whatever he likes..vaping started out as and has always been about helping people quit smoking...vaping has always been an evolving process, and some of it's greatest advances have come through the average vaper experimenting in his own kitchen or workshop...there is room for everybody...there's plenty of room for showing off the latest boatload of shiny shit from China..or the newest vape trick.or CBD oil....
 

pulsevape

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:D I get it.

It would be better in the DIY forum IMO. I don't expect many to follow. I was expecting a few hardcore DIY's to test it out. They'd know what they are doing and would experience the same feeling I have now and think fuck, this is good.
Hey, dude keep letting people know about your experinces....a handfull of naysayers don't speak for the community or the Mods of this forum....and the possibility you help somebody stop smoking is more important than protecting what has become in some people's minds a sacred cow.
 

pulsevape

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Just the wrong forum for your method.
Kind of like a Druid trying to preach in a Pentecostal church.

Your post won't get deleted here, however do not expect to attract a following of any size.
What didn't the snake handlers ever hear of "Interfaith"
 

user579

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What didn't the snake handlers ever hear of "Interfaith"

I prefer to stick with my own thoughts than being served up what to think by a religion.

It has been a little surprising. I didn't expect such a strong reaction. I've been posting about this on the fasttech forum every 6 months. There were questions but never "Don't do that" or anything like that. Maybe only real DIY people responded?

I've done DIY for 5 years but I still made the 20% mistake. The problem was I wrote my own calculator for making large batches of nic base and just pulled the 20 from nic column and added % instead of mg. Just goes to show that familiarity can lead to mistakes.
Screenshot_from_2017-12-29_13-16-32.png

https://s18.postimg.org/lzm5ln9zt/Screenshot_from_2017-12-29_13-16-32.png

Chances of too much nic causing problems is small anyway.
 

AndriaD

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Another thing. Even when I was vaping for 5 years, I still had one or two smokes a day. Now with this method I don't smoke at all.

Why kill options

That's completely on you, not the method; a GREAT many of us have found vaping to be the ONLY way of laying off smoking, and some of us needed to add WTA, because no amount of nicotine is a decent substitute for a cigarette. Smoking is just so much more than chemical dependency, but even when there's some element of chemical dependency, it's not JUST nicotine.

It's really mostly about repeating an activity hundreds of times a day, thousands of times a year, maybe millions of times by the time you've been a multi-decade smoker -- THAT is why vaping works so well, mimicking that activity... so if you don't do the mimicking... what fucking good is that? None I can see. Patches didn't work at all... of course if there had been some WTA in there, they might have worked a LITTLE better. I just can't see why some other method of ingesting plain nicotine is any better than gum or patch. NO other method works as well as vaping, not even close.

Andria
 

AndriaD

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Ahh I get no pleasure from the nic.
Never did even when I vaped 18 mg when I first started.
Different strokes I suppose.

I didn't get it even from SMOKING.... I felt nothing, except NORMAL -- the absence of want/need. Vaping satisfies that need to do that activity, but putting a drop of some sick-making chemical under my tongue would have zero effect, except maybe to make me feel like puking. It certainly wouldn't answer my need to inhale, taste, exhale something.

Andria
 

user579

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Never suggested my still smoking was anything to do with other people and vaping.

Can you please stop with the religious fervour for vaping. You are trying to convince someone who already understands.
 

The Cromwell

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Another thought.

People start vaping and then a few start DIY. A very small percentage.
Most will never DIY.
 

AndriaD

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I prefer to stick with my own thoughts than being served up what to think by a religion.

It has been a little surprising. I didn't expect such a strong reaction. I've been posting about this on the fasttech forum every 6 months. There were questions but never "Don't do that" or anything like that. Maybe only real DIY people responded?
.
.
Chances of too much nic causing problems is small anyway.

I've vaped nothing but my own DIY since about 10 months after I started vaping, so 3 yrs now. If I'm not a "real DIYer", then I have no idea what that phrase means.

Chances of nicotine causing puking or feeling like puking are HIGH, which means it's NEVER worth taking that risk. And if a person has any sort of cardiovascular problem -- which is a real possibility for someone who was a longterm smoker -- then nicotine very much has the potential to cause SERIOUS problems, such as heart attack or stroke. Vaping nicotine in any strength from 3mg to maybe 12mg or even 18mg is probably not very harmful, because we only get about 50% absorption... but allowing nicotine to soak directly into the mucous membranes of the mouth? Flirting with disaster... or a barf bag at the very least, and that in itself is a Fate Worse Than Death.

Vaping satisfies the urge to smoke. Putting some drops in your mouth would not, or it would be a "thing" already. If it works for you, marvelous. But it's not going to work for probably 99.99% of us. And it's just kinda dumb, since vaping works so well.

Andria
 

The Cromwell

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Never suggested my still smoking was anything to do with other people and vaping.

Can you please stop with the religious fervour for vaping. You are trying to convince someone who already understands.
Your fervor is with the effects of nicotine only.
Many of us need the action of vaping.
 

zephyr

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This is totally rad, thank you for sharing your finding. I am one of the few who is interested.

Edit: Calling something dumb because You are not interested, and maybe assuming vaping works for Everyone when nothing else would...not rad
 

The Cromwell

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One concern with this method.
If nic makes you feel good then more makes you feel better?
Is there a potential for abuse?
More than with vaping?
 

user579

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Is there a potential for abuse?
More than with vaping?

I questioned that myself.
I did increase my nic for vaping after doing sublingual tests for a while. I'm reasonably certain that it did adjust my vaping habits by preferring a larger dose less often.

I was vaping 2mg and about 7ml per day and I switched to 10mg and about 1ml per day.

Abuse potential is possible because it does feel good but I don't think it's likely. When you vape it's absorbed into your mouth, throat and lungs while dropping is more direct to liver/blood stream from sublingual and some to the rest of the mouth with a smaller amount to throat and stomach. I see that as a limiting factor. Too much will not feel as good because it will become uncomfortable. Same as vaping.

I still think it's good as far as another option is concerned. Whether it you switch or use when you can't vape I don't think is a concern.

It would be interesting to hear from others but I think the worst that could happen is you'll suddenly prefer high nic and all your juice on hand is lower nic.
 
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user579

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Why don't you just buy some Quick Nic

"Each breath contains .25 mg of nicotine." is not enough. I've got 0.66mg/drop. Half the the time I'm using 2 drops. That's 1.33mg

It does not absorb the same unless you get it all under the tongue. If you don't want to salivate and end up swallowing nic early it needs to kept at 1-2 drops under tongue. 3 max. It absorbs better that way too.

There's also the DIY factor of being able to get it exactly right. Also about cost. Less than $50 a year :D

So far I'm very happy.
 

user579

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I thought I should add something else for the few who still smoke while vaping.

My problem was partially due to mild food allergies. Problem is I have many mild allergies. Everyone has different reactions. Mine was always mild pressure or headache and felling a little edgy and fatigued. It seems the MAOI in tobacco helped remove the edgy feeling. That's why it was very hard to cut back on smoking.

Even after avoiding all those foods I would still smoke a pea sized bit of vanilla cavendish in a kiseru pipe once or twice a day.

No idea why Sublingual nic works so well for me. No more smoking, yay.
 

pulsevape

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I thought I should add something else for the few who still smoke while vaping.

My problem was partially due to mild food allergies. Problem is I have many mild allergies. Everyone has different reactions. Mine was always mild pressure or headache and felling a little edgy and fatigued. It seems the MAOI in tobacco helped remove the edgy feeling. That's why it was very hard to cut back on smoking.

Even after avoiding all those foods I would still smoke a pea sized bit of vanilla cavendish in a kiseru pipe once or twice a day.

No idea why Sublingual nic works so well for me. No more smoking, yay.
you should start a thread and explain your procedure from a 100mg bottle of free base nic all the way down to finnished product and where to get the citirc acid ect...and the dosages you've experimented with..be a resource for people who would like to give it a try...and be able to answer any questions they might have about trying this.
 

pulsevape

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I thought I should add something else for the few who still smoke while vaping.

My problem was partially due to mild food allergies. Problem is I have many mild allergies. Everyone has different reactions. Mine was always mild pressure or headache and felling a little edgy and fatigued. It seems the MAOI in tobacco helped remove the edgy feeling. That's why it was very hard to cut back on smoking.

Even after avoiding all those foods I would still smoke a pea sized bit of vanilla cavendish in a kiseru pipe once or twice a day.

No idea why Sublingual nic works so well for me. No more smoking, yay.
I have several questions I'd like soe help with
1) what is the strength in terms of mg/ml do you drop..6mg,12mg.18mg...if you could translate it over in a language we understand that being mg/ml???and when you do vape what strength in mg/ml do you vape....
2) how many drops do you do in an average day;
3) is the citric acid neccessary or is it just to make the drops go down easier.
 

AndriaD

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I thought I should add something else for the few who still smoke while vaping.

My problem was partially due to mild food allergies. Problem is I have many mild allergies. Everyone has different reactions. Mine was always mild pressure or headache and felling a little edgy and fatigued. It seems the MAOI in tobacco helped remove the edgy feeling. That's why it was very hard to cut back on smoking.

Even after avoiding all those foods I would still smoke a pea sized bit of vanilla cavendish in a kiseru pipe once or twice a day.

No idea why Sublingual nic works so well for me. No more smoking, yay.

You get MAOIs in WTA. But you won't get them at all from plain nicotine, no matter how you ingest it.

Andria
 

zephyr

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I've posted this on ecf, they deleted it :D

Sublingual nicotine. Another option.

For those that don't know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration

Not sure it's been posted before. I've only been doing this for about 14 months and I thought I'd post what I've learnt.

So I got bored of vaping but still wanted nicotine.
I remembered gum and sprays did not work so I thought this idea would fail. It didn't. Probably because it's more quickly absorbed than gum and not sprayed. The target is under the tongue and maybe some in front of gums, like snus.

20-30mg/ml nic in either water or some VG with a very small amount of any flavour. In water absorbs better and gives a quicker hit.
For every mg of nicotine, add half a mg of citric acid. You can increase from half to 75% if you prefer. I'd rather it be a little alkaline so there is no excess citric acid to erode teeth so I use 50%. It also feels better.

so 10ml of juice at 30mg/ml of nicotine gets (10x30/2) 150mg of Citric Acid.

I usually mix 30ml of 20mg/ml which gets 300mg of Citric Acid.
30x20/2=300

1ml is approximately 30 drops

At 20mg/ml, 1 drop of juice is about 0.66.mg of nicotine
At 30mg/ml, 1 drop of juice is about 1mg of nicotine
40 is 1.3
50 is 1.6
(mg per ml divided by 30 drops[approx] = mg per drop)

That makes it close to the usual gum levels of 1-3mg

The idea is to make it so 1 drop is just enough. 2 drops is a good hit and 3 drops will really hit hard. I've found this works best because there is a minute or two before the nic hits. You have to get use to this. It's very different than vaping or smoking but it some ways it feels better. You must convince yourself the delay is short. I did this by thinking I was at the beach on a warm day the first few times. After that it was associated with administering sublingual nicotine. Drugs can do amazing things.

The citric acid is to balance the pH. This way the nicotine does not give any burning sensation. If it still does it's because your throat has been irritated by vaping. It takes about a day of not vaping for this to go away. Or just try not to swallow it too soon. Or increase citric acid from 50% to 75%

I prefer to mix my nic with water and add a mint leaf. Any flavour for ingestion is good. A coffee bean, vanilla essence, Malibu, cinnamon or whatever . I just stay away from sugar and anything oil based. Sugar bad for teeth. Oil stops absorption.

Vaping flavours only taste good with a lot of VG and minimal PG (no PG is best). At 1% or less I've found very few that tasted good. Cap Vanilla custard. FW Snickers. FLV Coffee. TFA Toasted Almond. A Coconut that I can't remember the brand but it's not FW.
When I say tasted good, I mean ... that's amazing good.

Too much PG over a long period is not a good thing IMO. This is best done with the highest mg nic you can get in VG.

All I carry with me now is a bottle and it lasts a long time. Maybe it'll be useful for others for times when they can't vape, like on a plane or whatever.

This method somehow allows me to get more nic than vaping without feeling strange. It feels different. It's actually really good.
Would the citric acid also neutralize some nicotine, i.e. make it ineffectual?

Spot on instruction, curious about some nicotine becoming neutralized by the acid. Wish I had thought of this a year ago when I had pneumonia, because vaping HURT, or when I worked retail, had to be sneaky to vape.
 
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zephyr

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First dibs on your Vape stuff if it works for ya?

I didn't mean to imply I wanted to quit vaping, just curious about this method's effectiveness. Using less liquid certainly sounds good to me, as well as not inhaling flavorings and such. My lungs do feel heavier at the end of a day of heavier vaping and I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way. I won't make up a statistic or use pseudo-science scare tactics to make my opinion seem to carry more weight, though. That would be too much like the FDA ;)
 

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percentages should never be used when talking about nic, only Xmg/ml.

Ja, remind me of this again. *chuckles* Used to do the same thing until @AndriaD explained it to me. Now, I only use the Xmg/ml formula, which means I vape 18 mg nicotine per 1ml of juice. With absorption rate about halved that means I'm only getting around 0.90 mg per 1 ml, I use on average 3 ml a day which ends up being roughly 18.90 mg of nicotine per my daily use. All in I figure it is a lot less than half to a pack a day I used when smoking/chewing/rubbing 35 odd years.
 

MyMagicMist

Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
No vapiing is not totally risk free but neither is breating polluted air, eating artificial ingredients in food, Cosmetics, etc.
The risk from vaping MAY be as low as many other risks we daily encounter.

And how would we fulfill our vaping shinyitis using the sublingual Nic method?
Vaping is a hobby and fun for many.

This is not intended as religious fervor. It is simply agreeing with @The Cromwell. There's not anything nowadays which doesn't seem to cause cancer, bad sickness in one for or another. Nothing is ever bound to be 100% genuinely safe. These are two points I see as being part of entropy. We live so we die as well.

Also agree in regards that vaping is a hobby. While I think there's a basic design to do what is needed and there's not a great big area to really innovate that further, I do like the shinyitis. I keep getting surprised by the manufactures, the vendors in their efforts to make something appear new and better. I'm into using RDAS and mechanical mods, so no there's not lots of ways that can be improved.

I also like making coils. It is relaxing for me, nearly meditative. I get to enjoy a memory of my grandfather while building coils.

Not against what the OP is suggesting, merely conveying why I'm not keen to rush to it. If it works for someone then more power to 'em, best of times. Well, that's all I had to say, just agreeing I like vaping. :)
 

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