Diketones, Oils, Sugars; All-in-one page: FA, TPA, FLV, CAP, FW, LB, etc

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - General Discussion' started by Mikser, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Long time lurker, first time poster. This website helped me so much and i felt that i need to contribute somehow (since i can't be of much help with my mixes yet). Note: I posted this same info on ELR already (hoping that even more vapers can find it useful + to create more pressure on manufacturers to be more transparent, which is always good for us/customers + more vapers can contribute and help make this info better and updated).

    There are two reasons for this post:
    1. to help vapers find basic information about diketones, oils, syrups in flavors of different companies on a single page; it's easier to find anything and to compare flavors of different manufacturers.
    2. to help make companies become more transparent regarding the use of diketones, oils, sugars, syrups, GMO, aspartame, etc publicly. It is a health question and some vapers / their customers want to avoid those flavors, so why not give all the info, if there's nothing to hide?

    [​IMG]
    TFA/TPA – The Flavor Apprentice/The Perfume Apprentice, FLV – Flavorah, LB – Liquid Barn, OoO – One on One, FW – Flavor West, CAP – Capella, FA – Flavour Art, MB – Molinberry, LA – LorAnn, DIYFS – DIY Flavor Shack, INW – Inawera, HG – Hangsen, RF – Real Flavors, JF – Jungle Flavors, WF – Wonder Flavours, GF – German Flavors, DEL – Delosi, MF – Medicine Flower

    This list will be updated with any new findings (i ask for your help here; i wish one day this page will have all the info about flavors of premium liquid companies as well). I also hope the bottom listed companies in the table will soon figure out that they need to be more transparent if they want to gain vaping community's support.


    TFA/TPA – The Flavor Apprentice / The Perfumers Apprentice

    :) Full disclosure of what’s in their flavorings
    :) Very informative and helpful support regarding this question
    :) No Diacetyl in any of their flavors
    :( They provide range and not exact numbers, such as Acetoin <=1%, which could be either 10ppm (= totally irrelevant) or 10,000ppm (= very high).
    :( Extremely high levels of diketones in some of their flavors (Butter, Coconut Extra)
    :( Some flavors contain corn syrup (Caramel Original, DX Caramel Original, Graham Cracker)

    [​IMG]

    Note: shown are only flavors with the highest levels of A or AP (over 10,000 ppm = 1%). You can find more info about each of their flavors here:

    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=600-14-6 – flavors with AP (40+ flavors)
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=513-86-0 – flavors with A (60+ flavors)
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx - all flavors

    Their DX line contains zero diketones.


    FLV – Flavorah

    :) Very low levels of diketons
    :) Super concentrates result in very low amounts of diketones in your mixes (Coconut contains 2,800 ppm of Acetoin, but since you use it at 2% in your mixes, this results in 56 ppm of Acetoin in your vaping liquid = 0.0056%).
    :) They do not add Diacetyl or Acetyl Propionyl to any of their products. Diacetyl in some flavors is formed naturally during the flavor extraction process (but it still is Diacetyl, right?).
    :( We wish for some info about Butyric Acid in their flavors someday

    [​IMG]

    Note: Shown are only flavors with more than 1,000 ppm of Acetoin.
    More info about diketons in their flavors: www.flavorah.com/safety/


    LB – Liquid Barn

    :) None of their flavors have added Diacetyl.
    :) Good information on their website
    :( High level of AP in one flavor (Vanilla Ice Cream 3.5%)

    [​IMG]
    Note: Shown are only flavors with more than 1000 ppm of A/AP.
    Find more detailed info about their other flavors at www.liquidbarn.com/pages/quality


    OoO – One on One

    :) A pleasant surprize! Thumbs up for the company!
    :) None of their flavors have added Diacetyl.
    :( High levels of Acetoin in some flavors (Sweet Cream 6.7%)

    [​IMG]

    Note: Shown are only flavors with more than 10,000 ppm (1%) of A/AP.
    Detailed info about diketones in their flavors https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0261/1345/files/OOO_Usage_File.pdf?13036354632880998590


    FW – Flavor West

    :( Bad reputation for lying about diacetyl in their flavors a few years ago
    :( They use sugar syrup and other sugars in many flavors (more info at the bottom of the page)
    :( High levels of Acetoin in some flavors
    :) They don’t use diacetyl anymore and are in the process of removing acetyl propionyl and acetoin from their flavors
    :) They don't hide levels of A/AP in any of their flavors (like CAP / FA)

    My opinion: Other flavor companies use questionable ingredients yet do not get near the heat that Flavor West does. Regardless of the past, after FW published their reports and changed their flavors i could say i trust them more than companies, who don't release any info about their flavors publicly.

    [​IMG]

    Listed are ONLY flavours with more than 10,000 ppm (>1%) of Acetoin.

    More info: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dgcbcda45ghrkad/AACOwhaFQUX41lau0gt2FCO2a/FW Ingredient List.pdf?dl=0



    FA and CAP publish D-A-AP reports ONLY for flavors that have been proven to be diketone free (and hide the amount of diketones in the rest of their flavors). A BIG disappointment about these two companies!

    FA – Flavour Arts

    :) Independent research showed no Diacetyl and AP in their VAPING flavors, but...
    :( ...no results of Acetoin testing was ever published. We have no idea how much Acetoin is in any of their flavours.
    :( ...also, diketone-free is only their vaping line, while their KITCHEN line may contain D/AP (Butter, Cream Whipped, Milk and 30+ other flavors) and there is no info about the amount of Diacetyl & AP for any of these flavors.
    :) Their flavors does not contain sugars, protein, genetic modified ingredients, animal ingredients of any kind, preservatives, sweeteners and colors.

    My opinion: There is a myth that FA flavors are free of diketones. That is so not true and so misleading (if we count Acetoin among diketones). Some flavors contain D/AP and on top they hide any info about the amounts of Acetoin in all of their flavors. To get an idea what information FA company releases, please check the amount of diketones in FW flavors above... It seems could also advertise that there is no diketones in their flavors, right? (if they chose to refuse releasing reports about levels of Acetoin in their flavors, like FA).

    Link http://flavourartnaflavourreports.com/ - all flavours
    FA Flavors NOT suitable for vaping are here.


    CAP – Capella

    :) Testing results for some of their flavors about D-A-AP...
    :( ...but, no results are published about flavors that DO contain diketones (why not publishing tests of ALL flavors which they are selling?)
    :) They say they are not using Diacetyl in ANY of their flavorings

    My opinion: As a long time user of their Vanilla Custard V1, i'd really wish to get some info about the amounts of diketones (i would stay their customer, if those are not extremely high, but with no info released, i fear the worst case scenario, which i want to avoid).

    Info about their diketone-free flavors www.capellaflavors.com/a-p-status/


    MB – Molinberry

    :) Based on their website, their flavors does not contain any D, A or AP
    :) No colorants or preservatives and all flavors are GMO free
    :( Sadly, they do not provide their reports publicly, but only on request; if they would, then they would easily join FLV/TPA/LB as your safest choice

    Website: www.molinberry.com/


    RF – Real Flavors

    :) None of their flavors have added Diacetyl.
    :) Good information about what flavors do contain A/AP on their website
    :( Sadly, they did not provide their reports publicly yet. I hope Walt_Realflavors can help here.

    Website: www.realflavors.com/shop/


    LA – LorAnn (Lauren)

    :) No public reports, but they say they are not adding Diacetyl in their flavors
    :( Several flavors contain oils, which are very bad for vaping.
    :( Several flavors contain artificial colorings, which are best to avoid.

    Be sure to check this table before using (note: it's not LorAnn's official): http://bestvaporflavors.com/best-lorann-oils-vaping/


    DIYFS – DIY Flavor Shack

    :( No reports, but at least they do inform you publicly whether a flavor contains diketones or not, so you can avoid them.

    Website: https://www.diyflavorshack.com
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017 at 12:21 PM
  2. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    The following companies you should avoid if you care about diketones.

    They didn't release any public report about diketones in their flavors, they either refuse giving any info or they say they will provide any MSDS sheets on a flavor if you email them (which is absolutely not good enough for me; somehow i would rather see them publicly commit themselves with those reports, which they want to send me; also MSDS sheets are often not giving any info about diketones – check flavorah example here www.flavorah.com/safety/; obviously i would rather see their publicly released reports about D-A-AP levels in their flavors).


    :blech: INW – Inawera
    :blech: HG – Hangsen
    :blech: JF – Jungle Flavors
    :blech: WF – Wonder Flavours
    :blech: GF – German Flavors
    :blech: MBV - Mount Baker Vapor
    :blech: DEL - Delosi
    :blech: MF – Medicine Flower (Lotus Flavors)



    :blech: Sugars, Syrups, etc

    https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/wiki/sugars
    www.vapingunderground.com/threads/ingredients-to-avoid-using-in-diy.102/


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Final thoughts:

    We have two types of companies:
    1. Those who have nothing to hide and who publicly provide all the information to their customers. Their stance may help make vaping even safer in the future and these are beneficial for vaping community in the future.
    2. Those who don't publicly provide any info about diketones and/or other harmful substances used in their flavors (ignoring their customers; they don't want you to know what you are vaping).

    My opinion: I have no problems with A/AP and some of my the most frequently used flavors contain diketones. Overall i'm more concerned about oils, sugars, syrups, aspartame, artificial flavoring, GMO in my flavorings.

    But still i am TOTALLY against non-transparent policy of some companies, who don't provide detailed MSDS sheets / DAAP reports for their flavorings. Use of diketones is a health question after all and many vapers / their customers want to avoid those flavors. This makes me questioning about what are they hiding. Are they still adding Diacetyl in their flavors, which is no longer being used by most (but not all) flavor manufacturers? Could i trust them and their products?


    How can we help make vaping even safer?

    For me, reportings about DAAP, oils, sugars, corn syrup, aspartame, GMO are a must and that's why my ratings will always be 1/5 stars for non-transparent products. I can imagine that when dozens of vapers will do the same, all those companies will be forced to become more transparent due to under-average ratings / lower sells / bad reputation and they will finally stop ignoring their customers.

    More importantly, this may make vaping even safer in the future (before Diacetyl fun club attacks this sentence... we all know what garbage was in liquids in the past and how much better it is now; the industry was forced to change; this wouldn't happen without some transparency and public awareness and we would still be vaping oils, sugars and added Diacetyl, right?). And if it's even safer and more transparent, then voice of vapers can be heard even more (maybe resulting in less regulations and gaining better public opinion).

    Transparency is driving changes, helps finding new solutions faster and it is always good for users (not just for vaping, but also for food, chemical and all other industries).

    I'm looking forward to any other information about flavors / manufacturers / reports you may find. Also, there's quite some text and poorly worded information - please inform me about those; together we can make the overall information much more useful. Thx.
     
  3. soulseek

    soulseek Member For 1 Year

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    I strongly disagree with your analysis of FA. The reason they don't disclose D/A/AP values is because (99%?, I think they've said that only yoghurt may contain some acetoin) of their vaping flavours do not contain any.

    It's only the kitchen line that does and even then they're lower than the content of most other brands (there was a PDF a while back that listed the DAAP content for things like Pandoro from the kitchen line and it was way lower than what FW uses).

    Furthermore, FA is the only one of them to date that has collaborated and funded studies (clearstream) on the effects of flavours on your cells. If I'm not mistaken they were also the first ones to warn and inform (back before they split into vaping/kitchen lines) against the use of diacetyl in your e-juice.
     
  4. Mattp169

    Mattp169 Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years Vape Media

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    @HeadInClouds any commentson this info about FA. It does not jive with what I believe
     
  5. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    But some of us like diketones.
    Tasty little things.
     
  6. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    That is your opinion, but the facts are different (not just my opinion):

    Fact 1: FA did NOT publicly released any information about Acetoin testings in their flavors.

    For this reason we don't know how much Acetoin is in any of their flavors. We can assume that if there is no Acetoin in their flavors, then they would publish those results, right? (like they are proudly giving the info about levels of D&AP in most of their flavors, when they are zero)

    Fact 2: It is a myth that none of their flavors contain Diacetyl and AP. Some do. Kindly check their website, to find out which those are https://flavourart.com/en/store/flavors/

    Copy-paste from their FAQ https://flavourart.com/en/faq/
    ''We realize that for E smokers, our food flavors are used in a different way as they are not ingested but inhaled, and the presence of diacetyl can be a cause of concern.
    For this reason we have carried out massive removal of diacetyl from our flavor collection since November 2010 and product still containing it are clearly identified.''


    Fact 3: This one may surprize you. They explicitly say they produce and sell FOOD flavors, not vaping flavors.

    Copy-paste from their FAQ https://flavourart.com/en/faq/
    ''Disclaimer: We produce and sell FOOD FLAVORS which comply with Italian and EU legislation and EFSA reccomendation. They are safe for FOOD use as they are intended to enter the body by the digestive system, not by lungs.

    Digestion involves acid breakdown, enzyme attack, and kidney and liver processing. Vapor by the lungs goes directly in the blood stream. Even though due to absence of combustion, vaping can be compared to odor smelling in open air, consumption of food flavors by vaping has not been specifically tested for safety. Flavourart srl can not be held responsible for any claim or damage arising by the use of food flavor by the means of electronic devices as E-vapers, E cigarettes and similar.''



    These above are the facts, based on what you can find on the internet. One may also say that their interpretation of diketones is explicitly misleading, but probably most would agree that their policy is definitely not the best example of transparency, which many customers expect from such a reputable company.


    Exactly. That's why transparency is so important for customers. For those who are searching for diketones and for those who want to avoid them. And everyone in between. :)

    I don't care about diketones too much (ofc i want to avoid them if possible, but i don't ignore them completely). About one third of my flavors are FA and i will continue buying many of those anyway. Still i hope for much more transparency soon (not just from FA, but also from other companies). But those who are concerned about D-A-AP should simply avoid FA and choose liquids of other companies who clearly proved that there is no D-A-AP in their flavors.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  7. wllmc

    wllmc Yes there are typo's and no I do not care :) VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media

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    :popcorn: I love these threads:popcorn:
     
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  8. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    What I want about transparency is a list of ingredients in the flavoring.
    I am allergic to some flavorings and I have no idea what ingredient it is.
    If the ingredients were listed I could figure it out and avoid those flavorings.

    Allergic symptoms:
    Inflamed inside mouth and all puffy feeling.
    Total loss of taste for days.
    Inflamed throat and lungs.

    And it is not the BAD stuff flavorings that cause this.

    So with no ingredient list to figure it out from I keep buying, trying and tossing flavorings.
    I toss about 25-30% of all the flavorings that I buy.

    I have learned the early warning symptoms ie tingly lips, and now do not get the full blown symptoms.

    It is also my theory that this ingredient or ingredients also cause a lesser reaction in other vapers known as vapers tongue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  9. Mattp169

    Mattp169 Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years Vape Media

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    oh im just waiting....
     
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  10. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    FA was the leader in testing for and eliminating questionable ingredients from their flavorings.
    I think that they are also the only flavoring company that makes ejuice.
     
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  11. KingPin!

    KingPin! Gold Contributor

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    I'm all cools with facts ... and no problem challenging the norm OP if my current understanding turns out to be incorrect and new information comes to light. I agree these companies should publish information. Some people don't care either way that's fine but there are some out there who do.

    I guess the problem is you are challenging deep rooted beliefs members have here

    So these are the things that are critically important

    1) Your post comes across as angry, emotionally attached to the data you present and not a like a true experiment . You lack method and control information for me if you are presenting information of this type it has to be unbiased, impartial, and fair to everyone

    2) How did you go about gaining the information for each company, was it all website online? Was there anyone you went the extra mile with? Sources needed for me please

    3) When was this data recorded, was it recorded over a period of time for each company? also was any communication attempted with each company?

    4) facts and opinions shouldn't be mixed it's fine to have a conclusion on the data but presenting your findings first should be front and centre

    5) background into the data your are presenting is required, the information you present is meaningless unless you explain what the study is about in the first place especially for members in here not familiar with what's in your study

    6) was the same approach used for each company?

    Maybe a new version could be posted? Modified in some way?
     
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  12. xpen

    xpen Bronze Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    FA clearly states on their website which flavors contain diketones, and discourages their use for vaping.
    They do so since at least 2012, when I began vaping.
    Back then they were the first showing analysis and results of their own flavorings on cell cultures (project ClearStream, still an ongoing effort)
    All in all, they look to me as a responsible, caring company.
    Definitely in a different league from many other eliquid/flavoring producers, IMO.
     
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  13. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    There are some good points here @kingpin and here are some more info about my approach.

    1. I completely agree. I tried to make it as best as i could, but i totally agree that it needs an improvement and i am asking for this. Let's make it better together, with more information and more unbiased. More than anything i would wish for some support directly from manufacturers or sharing their view as that would be extremely helpful (if unbiased). My goal was to try present the most complete information about diketones in flavors of different manufacturers found anywhere on the internet (if there are any other good sources, then please share those and all this info may be much better; my only goals are two things mentioned on top of the first post).

    2. Yes, everything was found on websites (all links are there, obviously only for companies who have their reports published publicly). I didn't ask any company about their results (if this is what you meant by going an extra mile), because the information would be biased that way. If not publicly published and open information for everyone then i don't take it credible. Vaping community deserve better information than to rely on emails and take those as facts (besides i don't know how should i write to fellow vapers in that case... something like 'they told me so, so you have to believe this is true' somehow doesn't work and is not something we should 100% believe).

    3. Answer above.

    4. This was on my mind. First i presented facts (based only on what i found on their websites = i take those info as facts), then i sometimes presented my opinion (not always and where i did, i usually did mention that is my opinion, so everyone can understand that part is not based on facts). The reason for my comments is to help understand and the other reason is because sometimes the 'overall opinion' within the vaping community is sometimes not based on facts (= myth). I believe that for the most unbiased information it is important for users to know whether something is true and based on facts or not and that's the reason for explicitly sharing my opinion sometimes.

    5. The goals are clear and stated right on top of the post.

    There are two reasons for this post:
    1. to help vapers find basic information about diketones, oils, syrups in flavors of different companies on a single page; it's easier to find anything and to compare flavors of different manufacturers.
    2. to help make companies become more transparent regarding the use of diketones, oils, sugars, syrups, GMO, aspartame, etc publicly. It is a health question and some vapers / their customers want to avoid those flavors, so why not give all the info, if there's nothing to hide?
    (3). I am hoping for all other interesting info from all of you; together we can make this info much better and updated.


    Publicly available information are in our interest (and i truly hope some companies will realize that it is in their interest too) + i sincerely doubt there is any user out there (not involved in business) who would want that companies keep all those info hidden, rather then be exposed and publicly released.

    6. Yes. I checked them all and i collected reports of all companies available online (and i shared those info in reduced format as i wrote each time). And again, it is far from perfect and i am asking for your help. If there is any other info, company, flavor reports, any other website interesting to check, or anything else interesting, then please share your data so we can update this info.
     
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  14. Mattp169

    Mattp169 Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years Vape Media

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    yeah well see, heres the thing....if my memory serves, someone correct me if I am wrong, ( would just love if @HeadInClouds would just chime in already)we have a member here @HeadInClouds who has actually talked to the scientists at FA and I believe other companies and gathered tons of information. And I know for myself it is his "going the extra mile" that heled convince me that FA flavors should be my go to for safety as well as flavor
     
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  15. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    @xpen , i do believe they are responsible and caring company (otherwise i wouldn't use their flavors), but this thread is about DAAP transparency. And regarding this, FA is not the best example.

    Just a confirmation that there are diketones in your flavors is just not enough anymore to be proclaimed as transparent. Most transparent companies have publicly published DAAP reports (with very explicit numbers, not just saying there is D/AP presented) and for each of their flavors we can check how much Acetoin they contain (while FA does not even give any info at all about Acetoin; not even if flavor contains it or not). They should be more transparent and that would be in our interest, because it matters big time if a flavor contains 100,000ppm or 100ppm (and this information we can't get from FA, while we get it from others). Note: Personally i believe FA's flavors have small amounts of DAAP in some of their flavors since they are responsible and put lots of efforts to their testings; but until this is proven by actual reports it would be biased / would make this comparison totally unprofessional if i would be making conclusions 'out of the air'.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  16. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    This would be amazing and lots of great information. This is exactly what this page needs (hoping for info based on facts, not based on 'they said that and i believe them') @HeadInClouds, man, you're my hero and i should thank you for your recipes. I tried at least dozen of them and i love almost all.
     
  17. wllmc

    wllmc Yes there are typo's and no I do not care :) VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media

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    nevermind I change my mind, going back in the corner.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  18. AndriaD

    AndriaD Shine on, you crazy... VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    I agree about TPA/TFA; because of their absolute transparency, I was able to discover that their "DblChoc Dark" contains sulfites, of all goofy things -- sulfites are used to preserve color, to prevent foods turning brown -- yet the flavoring is BROWN, so it makes zero sense to include sulfites.

    Asthmatics should NEVER EVER consume ANY type of sulfites, as they can cause total pulmonary collapse in asthmatics. If someone wants to come back and argue with me about how they eat sulfites and it doesn't bother them, then they don't have TRUE "bronchial asthma"; my son suffers "asthmatic bronchitis" on occasion, but sulfites don't bother him at all.

    I'm happy to hear that about Molinberry, as their Glamour Chocolate is the only choc flavoring I can taste at all. I had feared it might contain diketones of some kind, but I ignored my concern, since I can't taste any other chocolate flavoring. Nice to know I had nothing to worry about.

    Andria
     
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  19. xpen

    xpen Bronze Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I do understand your point, and to an extent we share it.
    Still can't help but remember when some flavor makers have shown blatantly doctored test results...
    Have you got the time and resources for analyzing each and every flavor, and compare them against the tests results provided by each producer - if any, that is?
    Until then, I'm afraid nothing can be trusted - especially with the approach 'guilty until there's "proof" to the contrary' you're taking here.
    In other words, you can't be half-paranoid... either you go to the bottom of it or simply accept that possibly not everyone is out here to screw us all..
    In that respect the general behavior of a company is for me an indicator of how much I should trust them when in doubt.

    PS: I now realize this thread is getting polluted by general discussion, apologies BTW, have you reserved a post or two at the beginning of it for keeping results in evidence?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  20. soulseek

    soulseek Member For 1 Year

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    1) Let me repeat this, back before they split their lines into Vaping and Kitchen (the ones containing DAAP) they had a list of potential harmful flavours. They then decided to split the lines and simply warn people of DAAP content and emphasise that they are not suitable for vaping, to prohibit them from using them at all.
    I dont know how much more transparent than "NOT SUITABLE FOR VAPING" you want them to be.
    You may be happy with companies like TFA that release detailed lists of ingredients to the public but do not insist on people using them for vaping. What is actually happening is that some people look at a TFA/CAP/FW flavour with lets say 0.1% diacetyl, 0.3% acetoin and then decide that those levels are too low and acceptable for them and just use it anyway.

    2) Gotta love it when people respond without having read your entire post.
    "It's only the kitchen line that does and even then they're lower than the content of most other brands (there was a PDF a while back that listed the DAAP content for things like Pandoro from the kitchen line and it was way lower than what FW uses)."

    3) No that does not surprise me. I've been vaping for 6-7 years now. What you probably don't know is that all the older flavouring companies TFA/CAP/Lorann were food flavouring companies before vaping existed. FA was created around the time vaping came onto the scene. They were a very small company back then and focused entirely on vaping from the get go. As such, they were focused invested in vaping and its continued success and made sure from a very early stage that their flavours were suitable for vaping (their clearstream project is a strong example). This is contrary to the other older companies, who were in this just to make a few more extra bucks and couldn't care less about the future of vaping, it's longterm success or the danger to vapers.
     
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  21. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    There seems to be some bias in this thread about certain brands of flavorings.

    I really do not care about what the OP cares about in the flavorings.
    I care about other ingredients in many flavorings that cause me to have physical issues if I use them.
    But since the actual ingredients is not listed then I just buy em , try em and toss most of em.
    TPA and INW are the worst offenders to me.
     
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  22. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    FlavourArt was the first in the industry to address diacetyl & related diketones -- years ago. They moved beyond that with ClearStream testing.

    FlavourArt's in vitro testing (ClearStream Onward) goes beyond looking at specific ingredients & quantifies the effect of their vaporized flavoring on living cells. No other company does anything similar. Here's an overview: http://www.clearstreamonward.com/the-project-clearstream-onward/

    Here are details on their testing process: http://www.clearstreamonward.com/test-on-the-model/. Click links in the green box for more detail.

    Here are results for their flavorings: http://www.clearstreamonward.com/category/results/

    Contact info for any questions you might have: http://www.clearstreamonward.com/send-us-your-questions/
     
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  23. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Thx @AndriaD Thx for sharing that info and I'm glad you found these info useful. This could never happen if TPA would not be transparent.
     
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  24. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Man, it is about t r a n s p a r e n c y and not about analyzing flavors. It is about putting together all publicly available information to help vapers get information about amounts of diketones in all those flavors and be able to compare them. And it is about information which companies are hiding their testing results from the public eye and about those who exposed their results and committed themselves publicly.

    Keep in mind one other thing. When test results are publicly released, then there are some more liabilities and transparency opens a field of testings made by another independent companies one day. When you hide everything, then noone can blame you, right?

    You probably remember FW case – if they wouldn't publicly release information, then they wouldn't be caught (and noone could blame them for anything). And that precisely is why diketone-concerned vapers should avoid companies who do not want to publicly release information about their testings.

    Probably many vapers are wondering why a company like Inawera, which is constantly keep telling us that their flavors do not contain any D-A-AP, why they don't want to release those testing results publicly? It would be highly beneficial for them to show zero diketones and absolutely no trade secret would be revealed, right?). Why do they want to hide those info from the public eye? Why do they want to send me those info by email instead of committing themselves publicly? What are they hiding? Is amount of diketones the reason for changing so many flavors recently? Why wouldn't companies want to reveal their numbers, if there is nothing to hide and if those numbers are positive for company's image? There must be a good reason for this.


    I agree, hardly anything can be trusted 100%, but many vapers trust transparent companies who reveal their testing to the public eye more, than companies who hide those info.

    By putting all these information together and allow them to be compared, vapers and transparent companies are not paranoid. I'd say more paranoid are those who were exposed not telling all the information that is concerning vapers and commit themselves publicly. Should vapers defend company's secrecy about diketones or rather have it exposed?

    Publicly released information are in every vaper's interest (and i truly hope some companies will realize that it is in their interest too) + i sincerely doubt there is any user out there (not involved in business) who would want that companies keep all those info hidden, rather then be exposed and publicly released.
     
  25. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    It's important to realize that the words "diacetyl" and "diketone" define specific molecular structure. You can find those definitions in a chemistry dictionary.

    Regarding info on FLV from the original post in this thread: Diacetyl is diacetyl. The source is irrelevant, whether "natural diacetyl...formed during the flavor extraction process" or intentionally added later. You won't find "natural diacetyl" in a chemistry dictionary. (As an analogy, imagine fresh shellfish marketed as "sodium free" because none was intentionally added during processing and only "natural sodium" is present.)
     
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  26. AndriaD

    AndriaD Shine on, you crazy... VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    There is one other thing to keep in mind, though I'm not sure it's even been mentioned in this thread: we don't know FOR A FACT that vaping flavors that contain diketones is actually dangerous, at least, dangerous to everyone all the time.

    Bronchiolitis obliterans is STILL vanishingly rare, despite the ever-growing number of vapers in the world, a lot of whom don't frequent vape forums, and have no idea that they "shouldn't" vape this stuff, or even that it exists, or if their (store-bought) ejuice contains it. Doesn't it seem obvious that if vaping this stuff was really that dangerous, we'd be seeing an alarming increase in cases of bronchiolitis obliterans? Yet no alarming increase appears to be happening.

    Then, there is the fact that diacetyl is present in tobacco cigarettes in levels FAR higher than in ANY ejuice so far tested (and publicized) -- yet B. O. is, again, vanishingly rare, despite the fact that smokers used to account for some 40% of the population (or more!).

    The only known cases of this rare lethal condition seem to have occurred to those who work in factories which produce microwave popcorn, hence the "popcorn lung" label affixed to this condition -- could it not be that rather than the diketones, it was *the powder itself* which led to the condition? Lungs are not meant to inhale powder; even the Advair powder I inhale daily sometimes gives me a bit of trouble, and it's MADE to be inhaled, by those with rather serious lung conditions -- asthma and COPD.

    My own personal reason for avoiding diketones wherever possible has a lot more to do with my own personal situation than with any belief that diketones are *always* a problem -- the only known symptom of B. O. is "shortness of breath" -- I have asthma, so shortness of breath is a daily fact of life for me. I also have a (mild) case of hypochondria, and am prone to worrying about my health for many and varied reasons -- when you combine that latter fact with my daily breathlessness, you can see that if I knowingly vaped diketones, I would be giving myself a lot to worry about -- perhaps needlessly, as I stated in the opening paragraphs; it's just better for my peace of mind if I don't (knowingly) vape them. However I don't take that avoidance to any [neurotic] extreme -- i.e., I do vape Inawera flavors, shisha strawberry is over 14% of my ADV -- but the other flavors in that ADV are TFA's DX Bavarian and their Vanilla Swirl, plus CAP Sweet Cream -- all diketone-free. It's good enough for me.

    To wit: if I can easily find the info on the diketone situation of a flavor, then I avoid any that contain diketones... but if I can't find the info, I don't really worry too much about it. To me, this seems a workable solution.

    Andria
     
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  27. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Actually I do not care about diacetyl, diketones, etc except to enjoy the flavor enhancement that they give.
    Unlike many/most I did not switch to vaping because of concerns for my health.
    I did it because the wife unit wanted me to and saw that I could save quite a bit of money by vaping vs smoking.
    After 40 yrs of smoking 1 PAD plus I did notice that I had better wind, fewer colds and other health improvements though.

    My main concern with flavorings is some ingredients besides the ones most worry about that actually cause me physical problems.
    This is not addressed at all.
    I need a full list of ingredients so that I can discover which ingredients cause me immediate problems.
    Not just those ingredients that most worry about for long term concerns.
     
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  28. gopher_byrd

    gopher_byrd Cranky Old Fart VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years ECF Refugee

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    TFA does give a listing of their ingredients. Try looking at ones that react unfavorably with you and see it there are molecules in common. http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx
     
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  29. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Not going to try them again already trashed all the TPA flavorings for being bad to me except the Brown Sugar Extract.

    I have 2 bad reactions to many/most flavorings. Excessive chemical taste and actual irritation of mouth, throat and lungs get sore as well, these physical symptoms last for several days after just 1 day of use of the offending flavoring.

    Most of the bad reactions from the TPA flavorings was from chemical taste.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017 at 11:50 AM

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