Botboy141 Journey to Selling Juice (not a blog, just a summary)

[Botboy141]

Thinking of starting a juice line? Here's a short story for ya.

Ok, so I started vaping in 2009. It was more a less a failed experience. I was using a Provape 1 with standard 2.2ohm cartomizers. I wound up vaping 'Icy Menthol' on and off for about 2 years while continuing to abuse the analogs. I basically just vaped when I couldn't have a real smoke.

I started to DiY a little bit in 2011 as I was reading around and it seemed like the cool thing to do. I had a few failed experiments and then real life obligations took up most of my time and I abandoned it. Come December of 2012 I finally found myself a mentor in business and quit the analogs at his recommendation. I quit via vaping and finding an ADV that I could actually chain vape non stop (watermelon menthol by a local B&M).

Basically, I'm in sales, my mentor asked me something along the lines of: 'If 10% of people won't buy from you because you smell like smoke, is it worth smoking?' For one reason or another, I could never get myself to quit smoking for the sake of my health, I figured what the hell, I'm young, it's a long way off before it affects my health (I'll be 30 this year). Conclusion December 5, 2012 I quit smoking and started vaping full time. I will admit that I've had 4-5 analogs since then. Sometimes around family members who haven't been able/willing to make the transition yet. They don't taste good, that's for sure, but sometimes, while drinking with family, that different throat hit just sounds enticing.

Rolling into April of 2014 a new co-worker joins the company. The first fellow vaper in my office and he also dabbles in DiY. We get to talking after awhile and he suggests I should get back into DiY. I oblige and place my first order from Wizard Labs including ~60 flavors, Nic, PG, VG, all supplies for mixing by volume, etc.

Like most things I do, I tend to go all out. By the end of May I had spent over $2,000 on flavors and supplies. I'd spent 4-8 hours a day in front of my computer researching everything I could possibly find about mixing your own juice. I've read more threads that I can ever remember.

By July I had stumbled my way into a few exceptional recipes. I'm not a super original guy, my first couple of good recipes weren't fully original, it was usually taking something I saw posted somewhere, and making a bunch of adjustments to get it perfect for me. Once I realized how good some of these recipes were (via friends trying them and insisting I make them juice) I started dabbling with the idea of launching a juice line. First thing I did was to start putting together numbers. I'm a pretty analytic individual so this wasn't a challenge for me but was exciting. I realized there was definitely money to be made, but if and only if you are offering a top quality product. The money became a bit secondary to me when some certain things clicked for me professionally, I made a transition to a new company with a much more attractive pay structure both short term and long, and additionally it freed up a lot more time for me.

After a couple dozen or so people (including my biggest B&M local to me) kept telling me to sell my juice, I decided I'd finalize some details and get this thing off the ground. This was about 2 weeks ago that I made the decision, although I had done a lot of the work ahead of time.

Things to think about when thinking of selling juice (not comprehensive):
1.) Cost - Materials (consumable & non-consumable), web fees, payment processing fees, wastage, samples, R&D, lab testing, advertising, shipping, LLC, insurance.
2.) Market and Margin - online vs B&M sales.
3.) Product Quality, Originality and Presentation
4.) NAME - this was one of the hardest parts for me.
5.) TIME - this is likely the most important of all. Do you have the time to sit in front of a computer, manage orders, manage advertising, mix, develop new juices all the while making sales calls to B&M locations and online re-sellers?
6.) Supplier quality and reliability.

Those are just a few of the things to factor in. If you don't have 40+ hours a week to spare trying to start a new business venture, launching a juice line probably isn't for you. The good news is that there are alternative options if you search hard enough. There are companies that are crowd sourcing juices, companies that can do the mixing for you, companies that will basically do it all (granted you'll earn roughly $0.10 a bottle in comparison when they sell your juice).

Now, why am I sharing all of this? I've seen 100's of posts in the past few months, a handful here, a TON on reddit of people asking about starting a juice line. I have not done it successfully, but I am in the process so wanted to share some of this to help others through the same thought process.

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I also wanted to share pictures of my upcoming vapemail that I'm receiving in the next couple of days to step up production levels (perhaps the most exciting part).

Here is the first: http://imgur.com/gallery/yPSsH2V/new

This included a new 500g x 0.01g scale. Argon gas in the form of a 'wine preserver botttle' from amazon. 1000 pipettes (500 3ml, 500 1ml). 24 2oz amber glass bottles, 24 4oz amber glass bottles, 24 8 oz amber glass bottles (all wide mouth). 100 yorker drip tips for 4oz plastic bottles, 24 4oz plastic bottles, 1400 labels arrived saturday, 200 pairs of nitrile gloves and 2 respirators from home depot over the weekend...

Edit 9/29 @ 1:40PM - And my bottles just arrived: http://imgur.com/mJcOq2T

1000 glass bottles with droppers (now I have to clean & sanitize 'em all, ugh). Things are getting exciting. $600 order from BCV scheduled to be here later today.

Edit 9/30 @ 6:00PM - TFA stuff arrived early. Roughly 50 4oz bottles, 2 16ozs. Almost ready to rock and roll bitches.

Updated to include all pics in the same album. Updates linked here. http://imgur.com/a/lZ9mD

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More pictures to come, I am happy to answer any questions folks might have for me. I will not be discussing the name of my juice brand here as I'm not writing this all for the purpose of advertising or anything like that, just wanting to help out others that might be having some of the same thoughts I've had regarding this step.

Good vaping everyone!

 

[2ohm6]

Good on ya, mate. I'm doing a similar thing, but starting very small. I've got a few solid flavors, but I'm waiting til I have 5 total winners before I launch. Right now I'm only selling/sampling to friends and ECR. At launch I'll do the whole insurance thing and sell through my B&M. I have a long history in culinary so mixing flavors comes naturally. I was an art school kid as well, so my packaging/branding/design stuff was more fun than work. I'm not looking to make a living at it, just extra cash and see where it goes. I worry about the time production will take once I'm consistantly selling, which is why I'm looking into having my flavor bases made for me, but that route, while saving me loads of time, has unknown quality control issues. If all goes well, then I'll look at online sales. I've pre-slowed my roll...

 

[Botboy141]

Good on ya, mate. I'm doing a similar thing, but starting very small. I've got a few solid flavors, but I'm waiting til I have 5 total winners before I launch. Right now I'm only selling/sampling to friends and ECR. At launch I'll do the whole insurance thing and sell through my B&M. I have a long history in culinary so mixing flavors comes naturally. I was an art school kid as well, so my packaging/branding/design stuff was more fun than work. I'm not looking to make a living at it, just extra cash and see where it goes. I worry about the time production will take once I'm consistantly selling, which is why I'm looking into having my flavor bases made for me, but that route, while saving me loads of time, has unknown quality control issues. If all goes well, then I'll look at online sales. I've pre-slowed my roll...

Haha love it. Something I've been toying with but I'm undecided at the moment. I'm not entirely sure if I want to mix to order or allow juices some time to pre-steep. A lot of my juices are best after a two week steep.

If I decide to pre-steep, there's a pretty simple way to go about it. Mix a 0mg batch of juice, for me if I go this route it's 250ml. Then additionally mix a 250ml of 24mg. When people want something in between you just add the appropriate parts and this way you always have juice that has had a chance to cure!

Obviously if you do this and for whatever reason that juice isn't selling and its been sitting for 2 months + you are going to have higher wastage. But it's an option that cuts way down on production time.

 

[Sheprd]

Haha love it. Something I've been toying with but I'm undecided at the moment. I'm not entirely sure if I want to mix to order or allow juices some time to pre-steep. A lot of my juices are best after a two week steep.

If I decide to pre-steep, there's a pretty simple way to go about it. Mix a 0mg batch of juice, for me if I go this route it's 250ml. Then additionally mix a 250ml of 24mg. When people want something in between you just add the appropriate parts and this way you always have juice that has had a chance to cure!

Obviously if you do this and for whatever reason that juice isn't selling and its been sitting for 2 months + you are going to have higher wastage. But it's an option that cuts way down on production time.

How would that work, say if you wanted to cut it down to a 10ml 6mg using the 0 and 24mg premixes? Math obviously NOT my strong point!

 

[Botboy141]

How would that work, say if you wanted to cut it down to a 10ml 6mg using the 0 and 24mg premixes? Math obviously NOT my strong point!

Easiest way to do nicotine calculations manually is to determine how much nicotine you need in the final mix.

6mg/ml in a 10 ml batch size is 60mg.

60mg/24mg = 2.5ml needed of 24mg nic. The rest of the bottle (7.5ml) would be filled with 0 nic.

In the end I decided not to go this route though. Based on some suggestions from other vendors so that I can offer a wider variety of PG/VG ratios as well, I won't be pre-steeping (speed steeping select juices that really need it).

Instead I'll be pre-mixing flavor bases and building from there to speed things up. Not quite as quick as the above option, but allows more versatility.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Clean room.. is yours built now, or are you just mixing from home, or using someone's shop?
Have you had any of your juices tested yet?

There is a sticky here somewhere on the link to juice testing (at 130-170.00 per juice)
fda regulations are coming, will you be ready for that, at anywhere from 1k on up, per juice change
(ie: nic levels, light juice flavor to heavy juice flavor)
meaning one juice, offered in 4 nic levels could cost anywhere from 40,000.00 and up..
still waiting to hear on that bit..

think that's all my questions for now.. but i will say, only 2 people have talked about wanting to make juice to sell.. you and mixman.
not too many that i know of, that really want to get in, due to the fees, the regulations coming, and the fact that we all perceive flavors differently..
there are some here that are like me, already selling..
I sell.. but only local, and in bulk.. my smallest bottles are 4oz now and go up in size.. i mix to order.
Big difference verses someone that wants to make up a juice line and individually bottle and sell..

 

[Botboy141]

Clean room.. is yours built now, or are you just mixing from home, or using someone's shop?
Have you had any of your juices tested yet?

There is a sticky here somewhere on the link to juice testing (at 130-170.00 per juice)
fda regulations are coming, will you be ready for that, at anywhere from 1k on up, per juice change
(ie: nic levels, light juice flavor to heavy juice flavor)
meaning one juice, offered in 4 nic levels could cost anywhere from 40,000.00 and up..
still waiting to hear on that bit..

think that's all my questions for now.. but i will say, only 2 people have talked about wanting to make juice to sell.. you and mixman.
not too many that i know of, that really want to get in, due to the fees, the regulations coming, and the fact that we all perceive flavors differently..
there are some here that are like me, already selling..
I sell.. but only local, and in bulk.. my smallest bottles are 4oz now and go up in size.. i mix to order.
Big difference verses someone that wants to make up a juice line and individually bottle and sell..

Some more very valid points that I did not include in this thread that definitely should have been.

Honestly, I didn't want to sell, until everyone I was giving my juice to for free was telling me I should sell it. I wound up talking to the owner of 3 B&M's near me, let him and his guys sample my stuff, and he wanted to put it into his store too.

It wasn't until then that I started to work out the different business angles etc. So much easier just selling to friends and family but for me, regardless of whether or not I sell a ton or a little, this will be a hobby for me. I'd never sell juice full time (my hobbies tend to be more hours than I work anyways).

I have two folks ready to mix for me in my lab space should the volume step up to the point of me not being able to handle it personally.

I'm just here for the R&D in the end and to hopefully supply a product that is higher quality than most folks can find elsewhere for the price. I'm sick of paying $0.70-1.20 per ml for great juice. Then it seems like after that, all juices are $0.10-0.70 per ml are just crap with maybe one rare flavor from a vendor that is good.

Just hoping to be able to provide 5 really good flavors, maybe 15 in the long run, but do it @ the $0.50 mark per ml.

If others buy it, great, if they don't oh well, I've blown a few thousand on things that aren't needed. The good news is the other several thousand that has been spent has improved my ability to execute my hobby ;-)

 

[Smoky Blue]

i guess my questions weren't too important.. ahhh well..

 

[Botboy141]

i guess my questions weren't too important.. ahhh well..

Oh lol, I thought you meant those were questions others should think about.

We talked about this before, my juices will all be tested (3 have been, 7 have not 'yet' but should be in a week or two). I am mixing from home (at least for now) but I have a dedicated walled off space that I remodeled specifically for the use as a lab/mixing room. It's 100% AEMSA compliant.

Some of my flavors DO contain diacetyl. Some people are ok with vaping it, others aren't. I have tried alternative flavors but unfortunately with two of my juices in particular, can not get the flavor I want without it's presence. These flavors have been tested and have come back under 5ppm. Regardless of this, they are clearly noted on my website as well as on the label of that bottle that they contain diacetyl.

 

[Smoky Blue]

that is a good thing, botboy! proud of you!

 

[Botboy141]

that is a good thing, botboy! proud of you!

Thanks Smoky. I agree with you 100%, there is ZERO point in getting involved in juice making (selling) at this point in time if you aren't willing to go the extra mile for your customers and specifically, if you aren't prepared to shell out enormous amounts of money for FDA crap in the next 6-48 months.

I am prepared, however, the reason I wanted to launch now and not after that happens, is I want to know if this will be worthwhile to continue when that regulation does come through. If there's no way to at least turn a small profit without sacrificing quality once regulation hits, then there's no point in carrying on and I'll just go back to mixing for myself and friends/family.

Honestly, I believe this industry, juice manufacturers and the manufacturers of electronic cigarettes NEEDS to be more highly regulated. The simple fact of that matter is that juice companies in general are not self regulating. I see at least a post a week of someone who says they work in a vape shop and wants to know how to mix juice because their owner has them doing it and they don't know how. (reference: http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/2ipz8b/i_want_to_learn_how_to_make_complex_juice/)

Like seriously, we need some form of regulation here, the problem being that the government doesn't know how to get involved 'just enough' to regulate, and not enough to butcher the entire industry at the same time.

My goal is to be able to function well beyond the days of regulation, but for now, I digress...

 

[WZV]

Hey there Bot. Good luck in your journey! I wanted to drop a line and say that I am something of a designer and if you needed help I would gladly offer some of my services, pro-bono. (Maybe slide me some juice if you're feeling generous!)

I've mainly done web design for about a decade now, but I have been designing a bunch of different prototype labels for concept juices I want to create, so I've a bit of experience in print design now. Maybe I could share with you some of my concepts and previous work.

 

[Botboy141]

Hey there Bot. Good luck in your journey! I wanted to drop a line and say that I am something of a designer and if you needed help I would gladly offer some of my services, pro-bono. (Maybe slide me some juice if you're feeling generous!)

I've mainly done web design for about a decade now, but I have been designing a bunch of different prototype labels for concept juices I want to create, so I've a bit of experience in print design now. Maybe I could share with you some of my concepts and previous work.

Hey @WZV I certainly do appreciate the offer. My label design is already completed (not doing different labels per juice, one label for the whole line). Once you see them, you'll understand why.

AS far as web design goes, I should probably talk to you, however the company I'm hosting through (using their template) has been pretty awesome about writing some HTML code for specific things for me as I need them and they aren't built into the template already. Thought about going for a full custom site, but looking @ pricing including a functional shopping cart, this just seemed like an easier road, plus it's one I can maintain myself in the long run.

I'll give ya a shout if I need some help in the near future, or maybe have you review the site once it's up and if you have some solid ideas for improvement, put you to work .

 

[WZV]

Take heed, I'm very critical when it comes to design! I believe firmly that you have to be very brandable to succeed, and if I find your logo to be using Comic Sans and your website to have a poor color scheme and outdated design (bevels, heavy shadows, etc) then I'll tear it down like a sworn enemy. Alas, my criticism is constructive for you and your brand.

You say "once you see them..." When might this be?

 

[Botboy141]

Fingers crossed, next week. End of the month at the latest!