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Being a PG/VG supplier....opinions wanted

So I've been a lurker for the longest time now but I've come today to ask a few questions. A couple months back I went into a store and chatted with a guy that mentioned he wanted to create his own brand of juice but had trouble getting smaller quantities of PG and VG at good prices. Well, I have access to large and small quantities of PG and VG that are used in e-cig juices. Looking around on ebay and amazon I noticed that I could easily beat their prices.

Would it be a good idea to offer PG and VG to vape stores or people interested in making their own juice? I was thinking that vape stores could either make their own juice or turn it into a store brand which they could offer to customers who want to make their own juice. Mixing PG/VG at specific ratios would be another service I could offer prior to shipping. There is a local laboratory that would perform testing on every batch of PG/VG just for extra added assurance and safety. The prices that I could offer would greatly improve a stores profit.

Is this a good idea or is the market saturated with suppliers already?

Thanks in advance!!
 

Huckleberried

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Subscribing for when I'm not at work and can pay more attention to this. Thanks for posting :).


Typos brought to you by: iPhone.
 

SteveW

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B&M's that mix on premise aren't buying from Amazon or eBay. They're likely buying either 5 gallon or 55 gallon quantities from a wholesaler. As they're mixing already, I doubt they'd see any benefit to purchasing pre-mixed quantities. Ditto with DIYers (in fact, I want to control my own ratios).
Check out Essentials Depot when they have sales (with free shipping no less). Can you substantially beat those prices? If so, by all means go for it.
 

REDD

Member For 4 Years
Here in America , market saturation is not THE determining factor ,, if you want a competition free market place , the business is not your fortè,, however. Your idea is much needed and very solid , but hard work , great product , great pricing , and great service will determine your success , not the competition in regards to market saturation.
 
B&M's that mix on premise aren't buying from Amazon or eBay. They're likely buying either 5 gallon or 55 gallon quantities from a wholesaler. As they're mixing already, I doubt they'd see any benefit to purchasing pre-mixed quantities. Ditto with DIYers (in fact, I want to control my own ratios).
Check out Essentials Depot when they have sales (with free shipping no less). Can you substantially beat those prices? If so, by all means go for it.

If B&M's are buying at the prices that Essentials Depot are offering PG and VG then I could definitely beat those prices. I would like to see what their sales prices are but if it's around what I think it would be I could still beat their price and manage to keep the lights on. lol


Here in America , market saturation is not THE determining factor ,, if you want a competition free market place , the business is not your fortè,, however. Your idea is much needed and very solid , but hard work , great product , great pricing , and great service will determine your success , not the competition in regards to market saturation.

You've made a very good point. During college I worked 3 years in a customer service/sales based environment. I think it would be a good opportunity for me to reuse those skills for something like this. The PG & VG I have access to is some of the best stuff you can get. Its very well taken care of and not out off a tanker truck which is how some companies get theirs.


If you can beat current prices, the market can't be over saturated. By all means, if you can make money, do it. But, the stuff better taste good, lol.

I think I'm going to do it. Set up an online store, bottle it up and sell it. I'll make sure this stuff tastes amazing.;)
 

REDD

Member For 4 Years
Yes good idea. I'd target b&m stores as well. Build a brand. Brand their label repeat business is thus assured , also for cost conservation get certification for safe manufacturing. Have Pg and VG that you use tested once , not each batch ,, bottle several mix ratios , focus on reaching out to retail ,, consign product to local stores if you can afford to float inventory. ,, hire one social media marketing expert ,,, find a niche. You're set
 

nightshard

It's VG/PG not PG/VG
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B&M in addition to making their own e-liquid, can also sell PG and VG as is to people doing DIY.
The problem is that B&M owners are greedy, they would just buy it cheep from you they sell it at outrageous prices to clueless customers.
 

Time

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I think I'm going to do it. Set up an online store, bottle it up and sell it. I'll make sure this stuff tastes amazing.;)

Cool. The basics are there for you, quality product and good price. Find a good supplier for bottles and labelling The only thing you can screw up is customer service and shipping. You should do well.
 
Yes good idea. I'd target b&m stores as well. Build a brand. Brand their label repeat business is thus assured , also for cost conservation get certification for safe manufacturing. Have Pg and VG that you use tested once , not each batch ,, bottle several mix ratios , focus on reaching out to retail ,, consign product to local stores if you can afford to float inventory. ,, hire one social media marketing expert ,,, find a niche. You're set

Cosigning inventory is a very good idea. I actually just got ahold of a large amount of VG Kosher USP for free(I'm waiting on my PG to get here) and I'm going to give out samples. I guess I could give some out on here too, as long as people cover the shipping. I'd like to get other peoples opinion on how it tastes, how it compares to other brands etc... I'm going to do this myself but it's always good to have others opinion.

B&M in addition to making their own e-liquid, can also sell PG and VG as is to people doing DIY.
The problem is that B&M owners are greedy, they would just buy it cheep from you they sell it at outrageous prices to clueless customers.

You made a valid point about B&M owners being greedy. I'm not sure how I could combat that other than setting up an online store and offering it at fair prices. I'm not looking to get rich just to occupy my spare time. I don't believe we should all of our hard earned money on trying to enjoy our hobbies which is why I'm trying to do this.

Cool. The basics are there for you, quality product and good price. Find a good supplier for bottles and labelling The only thing you can screw up is customer service and shipping. You should do well.

I'm currently looking for bottles and they are reasonable. I honestly wish I could get them a little cheaper but it's no big deal. Figuring out labeling is my next thing to complete. It's pretty simple but I just want to make sure it's done right.
 

jay223119

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First off SORRY for the long post I am bored, but I promise it is a good read :)

Not sure, but it's not just as easy as buying PG/VG, bottling it, and reselling it, especially when using things people put into their bodies. I have been running several businesses for years. And with something like this I would at minimum get a manufacturing license as stated before, in some states these do not come cheap. In order to get one you are going to almost always have to form a business. Then there is the questions of what kind of business to form. You have sole proprietor (probably the worst business to form in a situation like this). You have an LLC probably the most common assuming you know how to do it this can generally be done yourself relatively cheap. Then you have C-Corps, S-Corps, etc., etc. Then you need to decide wish one is the best protection for yourself. You better have separate bank accounts for the business. Write yourself checks unless you are a single member LLC then it is a pass through entity and you can just transfer the profits to yourself. If you are a some type of corporation you are going to need to write yourself payroll checks. Which come with having to have other types of numbers and tax withholding. You need to have a good lawyer generally in case something happens. You need to have state sales tax licenses if required by your state. You probably should have some kind of accounting firm if you get to where you are dealing with big money or have a lot of receivables and expenses. Be prepared for tax audits should you be one of the unlucky few. Never mind the testing that needs to be done with this. MSDS sheets probably need to be on hand and supplied with your goods if you are doing wholesale. You will need to get and keep others sales tax exemptions if you are wholesaling and you better keep good records on everything. You are going to want insurance that covers product liability and also general liability and you policy better be bullet proof in case you get sued.

You will need to have warnings, best uses, what not to do, disclaimers, make sure you are preventing anything from becoming contaminated on your end and through the delivery of the product, credit card processor (preferably one where you can take payments over phone, in person, send invoices and they click to pay, and while on the go). You will need to build a website, if you are taking payments on your website you are going to want to have terms and agreements, terms of service, product disclaimers, etc, etc, along with a good design. I hope you have kick ass SEO skills or have the money to bankroll PPC campains. Social media is a must anymore for online business, don't just think facebook, and twitter, you now have Google+, blogs, Instagram, etc, etc. If you do e-bay or amazon you must take into account their commissions of 7%-15% on average. Shipping needs to be factored in, your time has a price on it. You must account all these things and take them into consideration before you just say "well I can get a 55 gallon drum of each for around $360 before shipping and I don't even have to pay that because I am local and can pick it up." Anyone can buy a 55 gallon drum of each for around $360 I posted a link to it yesterday somewhere in a post about something else don't remember what it was but was breaking down the cost of what someone could save if they bought in small bulk sizes and mixed themselves vs smoking vs buying premade juice.

Now we will just use my states prices for example as a cost to start something like this.

EIN = Free
LLC Reservation of Name = $25
Application for Registration = $55
Certificate of LLC = $105
Business liscense = $15 (this is on the city level where I live)
Merchant Application fee $25
Sales tax bond = $500 (if you have taxable sales that go over the bond this is increased the formula my state uses is (estimated monthly sales x tax rate x 3 = if it is over $500 then you pay that number as a bond))
Business banking account = free to use and keep if you have a combined accounts average daily balance of 25k or more at my bank, if not $35 per month. (for your business only personal funds don't count)
Accounting firm (unless you want to do it yourself) the one I use is $780 per month, quarterly another $1800, and then once a year $1800)
Not sure what testing costs can't be cheap though probably $500-$1000
Product Liability insurance + General Liability = $6800 per year in this type of business if your sales are under $750,000
Lawyer to draft up all you legal mumbo jumbo (disclaimers, uses, etc, etc) mine would charge somewhere in the neighborhood of $3500 but it would be bullet proof)

8x8x8 clean room environment = $15,700 + clean room charis, tables, suits, masks, etc, etc, add another $1500 at least)
Website, hosting, SSL's, terms of use, etc, etc, for something half way decent that isn't what everyone else has if you do not know how to do it yourself another $6500 if you want it mobile responsive (which you will more people purchase from mobile devices than desktops than ever before)
Credit card processor with everything that you will need plus kickass record on defending merchants again chargeback $75 per month plus 2.7% of every transaction
SEO specialist to optimize your website for you another $400-$2000 everytime it needs to be done (this does not need to be done all the time just once in the start and then generally if major changes are made to the search engines algorithms)
Social media guru $1000 per month unless you do it yourself (which really isn't that hard so we won't add this to the total)

So now just to start the business and get it up and ready to go for you to start working it you are at $36,615 for the first month best case, say you build your own site you are 6500 cheaper but you still need hosting this can be had for 200-300 per year for a decent shared host (IE NOT GODADDY). Of coarse this goes down month two to something closer to $1400 as you have paid some stuff in full for a year to save 20% and some things are 1 time costs. Now this does not include buying your products, or marketing yourself, or paying for advertising on forums or anything like that. But I am not going to get into all of that, and honestly you should be paying for this information lol but I am bored and tired and can't go to sleep for another 2 hours so I need something to do to pass my time at the moment.

Now that you are ready to go you can purchase your goods. Bottles = $.40 each (for 1 gallon bottles) if bought in bulk to get good price $2000, label printer (a good one not some cheap inkjet or laser jet) $3500, labels for your bottles $.18 each for blank weatherproof labels $800 (you have 5000 bottle need 5000 labels). 55 gallons of PG and VG $720 total cause you picked it up yourself, if you had it shipped add another $200ish to have a pallet sent to you hope you live on a road a box truck can get down or get a commercial building (that would add more cost to bottom dollar). You are now at a month 1 cost $43,187

So now you have 110 gallons of VG/PG you can buy this online for $20-$30 per gallon so you are going to have to AT MINIMUM probably match it. This will put you at a $2,200-$3,300 in sales then you take out your 2.7% to the CC processor and you are left with $2,140-$3210. Subtract the cost of your raw materials and you have $1360-$2427 then subtract your monthly cost of running business and you are either in the whole $40 to having $1027 left over or anywhere in the middle depending on you selling price, now this is assuming you have sold 110 gallons. Now let say you do awesome and you sell 220 gallons you are now at a positive $1320-$3454 and you put all that back into your investment minus you yearly fees and quarterly fees (an average of 1375 per monthbased off the number above) that goes in a separate bank account so you can pay them next year when they come around and you are left with yet again either negative $55 to a positive $2080 or anywhere in between.

I am by no means trying to discourage you as entrepreneurs is what builds this country, Small business is what employees most people. However as a business owner, and thinking about this in a logical way that would protect me, my property, and doing it correctly these are the things I know in my state you would have to do AT MINIMUM this was done off the top of my head and with some personal experience plus 3 hours of research real quick online about what you would need and not need at minimum. This was just a rough estimate and in know way would I think it could be done that cheap. You need a solid business plan, research for at least 2-3 months on all the costs associated and how your going to execute, then break it down and see where you have to sell your products at and how much of them you have to sell to break even at the end of the month. Then you need to figure out a way and execute how to sell even more than what you need to break even so that you can pay yourself or at least get your investment back... Say you used the very good rough numbers I came up with above and you sold 220 gallons per month at $25 you would have roughly $2516.50 left after setting everything back and paying for everything and it would take you 17 months just to get your investment back and you haven't even payed yourself yet.......
 

jay223119

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Guess my post ran OP off....It really wasn't meant to do that, was more so meant to show why prices are where they are with the big boys and what would have to be done to be successful......
 
So, what is the update on this progress?

Sorry I haven't checked this forum in a little while. As of right now things are going to have to be put on hold. I recently lost my job (I'm a recent college grad that was working for a big O&G company. It made sense to let go of the people with the least experience.) and right now priority number one is transitioning into another position.



First off SORRY for the long post I am bored, but I promise it is a good read :)

Not sure, but it's not just as easy as buying PG/VG, bottling it, and reselling it, especially when using things people put into their bodies. I have been running several businesses for years. And with something like this I would at minimum get a manufacturing license as stated before, in some states these do not come cheap. In order to get one you are going to almost always have to form a business. Then there is the questions of what kind of business to form. You have sole proprietor (probably the worst business to form in a situation like this). You have an LLC probably the most common assuming you know how to do it this can generally be done yourself relatively cheap. Then you have C-Corps, S-Corps, etc., etc. Then you need to decide wish one is the best protection for yourself. You better have separate bank accounts for the business. Write yourself checks unless you are a single member LLC then it is a pass through entity and you can just transfer the profits to yourself. If you are a some type of corporation you are going to need to write yourself payroll checks. Which come with having to have other types of numbers and tax withholding. You need to have a good lawyer generally in case something happens. You need to have state sales tax licenses if required by your state. You probably should have some kind of accounting firm if you get to where you are dealing with big money or have a lot of receivables and expenses. Be prepared for tax audits should you be one of the unlucky few. Never mind the testing that needs to be done with this. MSDS sheets probably need to be on hand and supplied with your goods if you are doing wholesale. You will need to get and keep others sales tax exemptions if you are wholesaling and you better keep good records on everything. You are going to want insurance that covers product liability and also general liability and you policy better be bullet proof in case you get sued.

WOW is all I have to say!! I was doing a little research on the legal standpoint of things and I was almost turned off by the whole idea. These are liquids that are being inhaled. The last thing I would want is a legal issue. I will continue to do more research and decide wether or not this is something I'm willing to pursue. However, you've pretty much completed majority of the research for me. lol Thanks a lot for that.

I have never seen someone break down the expenses on a business like that before. You seem very knowledgable and if possible I would like to shoot you a pm from time to time during the whole process. Obviously I'm new to starting a business but it's something on my bucket list. Once again, thanks for sharing your business knowledge.
 

jay223119

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Sure as long as the mods are ok with it. I must also add that any advice or answers to your questions are either based off of personal experience or research ive done online. I am not a lawyer nor am i a business cunsultant so any decision you make should be your own desicion and not based solely off of anything i say. I can if am able point you in the right direction. However i would not want to tell you exactly what to do because of liability. I can offer lots of advice and pointers. But thats all it is advice or pointers you should always verify/double check sources and make your own decisions though. If your cool with that and the mods dont care ifnwe communicate about that through pm then i would not object
 

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