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battery cycles

dave/jayce

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Wondering what is better?? Fully cycle batteries or only use to a certain volts?? Currently i have been fully cycling but am i wrong to do so? Wondering what the masses are doing??
 

PirateB

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This is the way I understand it... Example: Battery is rated for 500 cycles, each full discharge/charge counts as one cycle. By only discharging the battery to say 1/2 then recharging would be considered 1/2 a cycle. So a battery can potentially last longer if not fully discharged before recharging. I personally never discharge below 3.6V if for no other reason than the vape becomes very dissatisfying after the 3.7V mark (assuming you are using a mechanical)
 

dave/jayce

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I use both mech (dripping) and hana mod (kayfun). Thanks for your input. Curious to hear other opions...
 

PirateB

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When you say you have been "fully cycling" what is the battery voltage when you generally stick it on the charger?
 

Hobby Kid

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I have been using two senybor Panasonic NRCs for over a year. I tested their mAh recently and they'd only dropped by 150mah (that's if they were originally their stated capacity). They still hold their charge as much as the day I bought then. I think I've always let them drop to about 3.6v then recharge. Therefore is say it pays to buy a decent charger and decent batteries from reputable sellers.
 

James

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A charge cycle is not a full discharge/recharge . It is a discharge of any kind and recharge to any level. At least that was I was taught. Also on the battery's maker spec. sheet there is a lower level that will be recommended to not go below . If you can findout who realy made the battery . That can be a problem though . But in general it os not a good idea to go below 1/3 of the batterys rated capacity
 
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Hobby Kid

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A charge cycle is not a full discharge/recharge . It is a discharge of any kind and recharge to any level. At least that was I was taught. Also on the battery's maker spec. sheet there is a lower level that will be recommended to not go below . If you can findout who realy made the battery . That can be a problem though . But in general it os not a good idea to go below 1/3 of the batterys rated capacity
So that would be above nominal charge then - above 3.7v (of the batteries we generally use in the vape world) ?
 

James

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On another thread about battery safety there is a good link to the battery university that is the best resource for batterys around .
 

James

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What Constitutes a Discharge Cycle?

Most understand a discharge/charge cycle as delivering all stored energy, but this is not always the case. Rather than a 100 percent depth of discharge (DoD), manufacturers prefer rating the batteries at 80 percent DoD, meaning that only 80 percent of the available energy is being delivered and 20 percent remains in reserve. A less-than-full discharge increases service life, and manufacturers argue that this is closer to a field representation because batteries are seldom fully discharged before recharge.

There are no standard definitions of what constitutes a discharge cycle. A smart battery that keeps track of cycle count may require a depth of discharge of 70 percent to define a discharge cycle; anything less does not count as a cycle. There are many other applications that discharge the battery less. Starting a car, for example, discharges the battery by less than 5 percent, and the depth of discharge in satellites is 6 to 10 percent before the onboard batteries are being recharged during the satellite day. Furthermore, a hybrid car only uses a fraction of the capacity during acceleration before the battery is being recharged.
 

James

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.

Cycle life of NiMH under different operating conditions


Figure 3:
Cycle life of NiMH under different operating conditions

NiMH performs best with DC and analog loads; digital loads lower the cycle life. Li-ion behaves similarly.

Source: Zhang (1998)


Figure 4 examines the number of full cycles a Li-ion battery with a cobalt cathode can endure when discharged at different C-rates. At a 2C discharge, the battery exhibits higher stress than at 1C, limiting the cycle count to about 450 before the capacity drops to half level.

Cycle life of Li-ion with cobalt cathode at varying discharge levels




Figure 4:
Cycle life of
Li-ion with cobalt cathode at varying discharge levels

The wear-and-tear of a battery increases with higher loads.

Source: Choi et al (2002)



For a long time, Li-ion had been considered fragile and unsuitable for high loads. This has changed, and today many lithium-based systems are more robust than the older nickel and lead chemistries. Manganese and phosphate-type Li-ion permit a continuous discharge of 30C. This means that a cell rated at 1,500mAh can provide a steady load of 45A, and this is being achieved primarily by lowering the internal resistance through optimizing the surface area between the active cell materials. Low resistance keeps the temperature down, and running at the maximum permissible discharge current, the cells heat up to about 50ºC (122ºF); the maximum temperature is limited to 60°C (140°F).

One of the unique qualities of Li-ion is the ability to deliver continuous high power. This is possible with an electrochemical recovery rate that is far superior to lead acid. The slow electrochemical reaction of lead acid can be compared to a drying felt pen than works for short marking but needs rest to replenish the ink.
Simple Guidelines for Discharging Batteries

The battery performance decreases with cold temperature and increases with heat.

Heat increases battery performance but shortens life by a factor of two for every 10°C increase above 25–30°C (18°F above 77–86°F).

Although better performing when warm, batteries live longer when kept cool.

Operating a battery at cold temperatures does not automatically permit charging under these conditions. Only charge at moderate temperatures.

Some batteries accept charge below freezing but at a much-reduced charge current. Check the manufacturer’s specifications.

Use heating blankets if batteries need rapid charging at cold temperatures.

Prevent over-discharging. Cell reversal can cause an electrical short.

Deploy a larger battery if repetitive deep discharge cycles cause stress.

A moderate DC discharge is better for a battery than pulse and aggregated loads.

A battery exhibits capacitor-like characteristics when discharging at high frequency. This allows higher peak currents than is possible with a DC load.
 

James

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It also looks like pass through charging is a real bad idea .
 

Kemosabe

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yes, pass-through charging is not very good for a lithium battery. any application that drains the battery while the battery is charging is not optimum. this is why you wouldn't want to browse the internet for example while your phone/laptop is charging. in fact, its best to have the device completely powered off while charging.

lithium batteries perform best when charged at no less that 50% (3.7v). lithium batteries prefer a shallow charge to a deep charge. thankfully for us, this coincides with the best time to charge a mech's battery. we notice drop-off right when we should be charging. and if you notice drop-off at 3.8v or more, then go right ahead and charge, your lithium cell will thank you.
^this was not the case with the nickel batts of the past. nickel batts would deplete 1 charge cycle just by plugging in your charger. nickel batts suffered from memory loss if you didnt fully or near-fully discharge them before recharging. neither of these things are true of lithium cells.

a discharge cycle for lithium cells (as i read on Apple's website as well as Batt U) is described as depleting 100% of the available milliamp hours, whether that be 1 full discharge and re-charge, or two 50% discharge and recharge cycles.

lastly, i dont believe that chart is showing different cells. it appears to me that the chart is testing the same cell at different discharge rates to show that the capacity diminishes with a heavier load.
 

Hobby Kid

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yes, pass-through charging is not very good for a lithium battery. any application that drains the battery while the battery is charging is not optimum. this is why you wouldn't want to browse the internet for example while your phone/laptop is charging. in fact, its best to have the device completely powered off while charging.
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lastly, i dont believe that chart is showing different cells. it appears to me that the chart is testing the same cell at different discharge rates to show that the capacity diminishes with a heavier load.
That's what I was asking and concerned about i.e. my high c rated lipos keeping their capacity the more cycles they receive. As for charging, I keep my ipad plugged in all the while I browse else it kills the battery. Np I guess. There's more at the shop
 

Kemosabe

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I understand, HobbyKid. please dont take this as a slight, but its likely the battery got compromised by charging while browsing and now you cant browse without charging. perhaps it was something else that compromised your battery, but the aformentioned situation is a likely culprit.
Apple is disrespectful of its customers for not allowing replacable batteries. if you ever wanted to start fresh and get a new battery, youd have to either tear apart your ipad or buy a new one. Apple is greedy imo. but i love their products lol!
 

Hobby Kid

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I understand, HobbyKid. please dont take this as a slight, but its likely the battery got compromised by charging while browsing and now you cant browse without charging. perhaps it was something else that compromised your battery, but the aformentioned situation is a likely culprit.
Apple is disrespectful of its customers for not allowing replacable batteries. if you ever wanted to start fresh and get a new battery, youd have to either tear apart your ipad or buy a new one. Apple is greedy imo. but i love their products lol!
Hey no that's fine. It'll still go a few hours or so. Just when I got it I'd get a day out off it. But yeah, I expect it really. It's like laptops. You use one for a year and only use the battery as an ups just in case. Then one day you use the battery for the first or second time and get 15 minutes out of it. Hey you know, there used to be a lot of websites promising to refresh your laptop batteries. But I don't see much of that anymore. I once had an hp which had a battery refresh function (many years ago now) but it never worked
 

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