Anachronistic VU policy

[HeadInClouds]

I was typing a reply to a thread asking about extracting leaves/plants/herbs when the thread vanished. Of course that subject is well policed here because it can veer into one very specific leafy topic that would have upset Nancy Reagan, but come ON! Here's the reply I was going to post:

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Extracting lemon balm (leaves), chamomile (flowers) and the other plants mentioned is really no different than mint leaves, tea leaves, lavender buds... Lots of DIYers mess with extracting tea; same methods would seem applicable.

I personally leave it to pros with proper equipment and knowledge of toxicity, but if members are "allowed" to discuss methods to extract and vape their Celestial Seasonings tea, garden mint, and favorite coffee grounds, why react this way to these specific leaves/flowers? Celestial Seasonings herbal teas often contain the very same herbs the OP mentions. I'm in an area where even (I'll get smacked to mention it) is legal, but just because it's not legal everywhere, it's a taboo topic here? When the FDA bans flavorings in vapes, will we be limited to discussing unflavored? How about when vaping is banned in selected states?
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Something is just WRONG when we can freely discuss a highly-toxic item like PURE nicotine, but not an herb with actual medicinal use.

<rant over>

 

[HeadInClouds]

It's all about the money...

...hypocrisy, plain and simple

 

[HeadInClouds]

I want to clarify that the deleted thread contained no mention of that specific herb, except indirectly by mods. The herbs that OP named are all on this list: http://www.celestialseasonings.com/learn-about-us/whats-in-our-tea.

 

[OBDave]

Well, I was also getting into a reply on that thread in question when it got pulled by folks with more clout than I...for a moment I was miffed as well, since the thread didn't discuss the one semi-legal dry herb that shall not be discussed and wasn't technically a rule break.

After some behind-the-scenes discussion, we've collectively decided not to go down that path for a few reasons:

1. The OP specifically listed using vaporizers for inhaling dry herbs - that's entirely outside VU's wheelhouse.
2. We've seen threads like this before, and they require rather intense monitoring on the part of moderators, because chat has almost inevitably turned at some point toward discussing the verboten substance in veiled terms - call it the Godwin's Law of herbal extract discussion.
3. The use of the herbal extracts discussed weren't for flavoring purposes (it was specifically mentioned the taste of most were quite horrific) but instead focused on their psychoactive properties - that's exactly the kind of discussion Rule 1 was meant to quash.

I can't say that I can entirely get behind the discussion of making homemade coffee/tea extracts as a flavor enhancement while banning discussion of the same for other reasons (though I personally leave the fine folks at FA, TFA, CAP and others to work their magic for me), but I can support the effort to back the spirit of the law, even if the letter of the same is debatable in this case.

 

[HeadInClouds]

3. The use of the herbal extracts discussed weren't for flavoring purposes (it was specifically mentioned the taste of most were quite horrific) but instead focused on their psychoactive properties - that's exactly the kind of discussion Rule 1 was meant to quash.

The "psychoactive properties" of tobacco, caffeine, and alcohol are fine to discuss, however - and links to purchase pure (toxic) caffeine powder and pure (toxic) nicotine are fine. Obviously Rule 1 is not motivated by health concerns.

Open discussion of methods to avoid federal legal regulations in other nations are ALL over VU. How to avoid import restrictions, ways to circumvent customs inspections are a couple of examples. So I have a hard time believing Rule 1 is an attempt to appear law-abiding.

Do advertisers threaten to leave if rule 1 is broached? Is there some federal agency waiting to nail Joe for what members post on his website? Seriously - what's the deal?

 

[AndriaD]

Actually I think it probably has more to do with what is searchable -- if someone does a google or other SE search for the verboten substance, and this site pops up.... I think that's the sort of impression they're trying to avoid.

I can sorta get why vaping dry herbs would be nixed, for the reason mentioned; the psychoactive properties of legal herbs... honestly I can't imagine why that's verboten, but "ours is not to wonder why, ours is just to..." do or die I guess.

Andria

 

[BigNasty]

While joe is behind the krispy kreme curtain of communism, the server is not.
I was researching the herbals in the post and consuming then via smoking was never mentioned.
It smacks of stupidity I cannot fathom, even on the improper dosing side the thought process seemed more like how to vape spice.

 

[OBDave]

The "psychoactive properties" of tobacco, caffeine, and alcohol are fine to discuss, however - and links to purchase pure (toxic) caffeine powder and pure (toxic) nicotine are fine. Obviously Rule 1 is not motivated by health concerns.

Open discussion of methods to avoid federal legal regulations in other nations are ALL over VU. How to avoid import restrictions, ways to circumvent customs inspections are a couple of examples. So I have a hard time believing Rule 1 is an attempt to appear law-abiding.

Do advertisers threaten to leave if rule 1 is broached? Is there some federal agency waiting to nail Joe for what members post on his website? Seriously - what's the deal?

I can't directly dispute any of your points - will leave it to the folks who own the sandbox we all play in to defend their rationale further if they choose, though they're certainly not obligated to do so.

Personally, I haven't seen any ads for pure caffeine, and I've been rather vocal in my dismay over the advertising that offers pure nicotine for sale to the general public. As far as the psychoactive nature of the three you mentioned, there's a pretty clear demarcation in the fact that they're all widely used, discussed, and accepted in the US - other substances may be legal or semi-legal (I hold a license to possess the verboten in my home state, though I haven't had any in my possession in several years), but are not part of what's widely accepted as an everyday topic.

I also can't speak to how Joe does or doesn't make money - he, you, and I all derive at least a portion of our income from the vape scene, though I don't make a penny off of anything that happens on this site or network.

 

[BigNasty]

I support the policy. The last thing VU needs is to be taken over by banana peel smoker talk.

jm .02

I agree.
But it the missing post was more along the lines (it seemed to me at least) was how to make the fake MJ spice extract in a vaping form.

 

[OBDave]

I agree.
But it the missing post was more along the lines (it seemed to me at least) was how to make the fake MJ spice extract in a vaping form.

I never even thought of it that way, but given a second look it does appear that it could have been the OP's intent, or at least a line of thought he was interested in exploring...which would be another reason for admin to have killed the thread off.

I know there are people who are going to hate on mods for modding here - go ahead, but remember that if this was the other big forum this thread would have already been deleted...

 

[BigNasty]

What people are forgetting is that before BP herbs were the medicine. A metric ton of bodily harm can be caused by plants via wrong administration and dosage.
even GRAS safe suppliments.

 

[HeadInClouds]

.. if this was the other big forum this thread would have already been deleted...

Absolutely true, and I would have been permanently banned already.
I've concluded that That Rule is the same on ecf and vu -- though consequences differ -- and it's probably for similar reason.
I view That Rule much as I view That Federal Law. The majority of us in Colorado are rebellious like that.

 

[OBDave]

Absolutely true, and I would have been permanently banned already.
I've concluded that That Rule is the same on ecf and vu -- though consequences differ -- and it's probably for similar reason.
I view That Rule much as I view That Federal Law. The majority of us in Colorado are rebellious like that.

Greetings, Coloradoan, from the People's Republic of Ocean Beach, where a good portion of cars still sport "US out of OB!" bumper stickers...

 

[AndriaD]

I think the main thing is a) the forum owner can do whatever he wants, set whatever rules he likes, and if we wanna play here, we must abide; and b) there are forums for discussion of that other stuff -- but this isn't one of them.

Personally I've never understood why there is such fear and loathing of the stuff, but that's a discussion for a different place. I don't have a problem with it; I appreciate this forum tremendously for the sheer fact that we can *discuss* all this without the moderators getting their panties in a bunch. That's very nice indeed.


Andria

 

[OBDave]

I really enjoy those top notch sidewalk buffets you guys have! I set my tent up right next to that bad boy.
I Yelped you guys 5 stars! Best municipal freebie handout ever!

Come on back for all the hydroponic celery and closet tomatoes you can stuff down your gullet, buddy! I'll be the fat guy on a BMX bike thanking you for not hassling the noobs and inviting you around the corner for a beer...

 

[BigNasty]

My thought process behind he was trying to make **** was the comment about smoking three big *** worth of that one herb. While ingesting in tea and extracts it has a sedative quality to it. That is why I went searching for it, since it seems more south American and Asian in origin for folk treatments.
Much like Salvia.

I am MUCH more concerned with people improperly ingesting herb supplements incorrectly, due to plant based fatty esters, common OTC drug interactions and incorrect dosing.
Lets just take extracting them with chemicals they have no business fucking around with or a fat soluble solution.
Fucking around with herbals with little or no knowledge is a great way to go from healthy to multiple organ shut down in a blink of an eye.

 

[AndriaD]

My thought process behind he was trying to make *** was the comment about smoking three big ***** worth of that one herb. While ingesting in tea and extracts it has a sedative quality to it. That is why I went searching for it, since it seems more south American and Asian in origin for folk treatments.
Much like Salvia.

I am MUCH more concerned with people improperly ingesting herb supplements incorrectly, due to plant based fatty esters, common OTC drug interactions and incorrect dosing.
Lets just take extracting them with chemicals they have no business fucking around with or a fat soluble solution.
Fucking around with herbals with little or no knowledge is a great way to go from healthy to multiple organ shut down in a blink of an eye.

That, and the fact that some stuff is perfectly safe to ingest digestively, but might cause a world of hurt if inhaled or consumed in some other way (diacetyl is an obvious one, but there are probably others).

Andria

 

[Whiskey]

I agree.
But it the missing post was more along the lines (it seemed to me at least) was how to make the fake MJ spice extract in a vaping form.

We have a winner

 

[Whiskey]

I think the main thing is a) the forum owner can do whatever he wants, set whatever rules he likes, and if we wanna play here, we must abide; and b) there are forums for discussion of that other stuff -- but this isn't one of them.

Personally I've never understood why there is such fear and loathing of the stuff, but that's a discussion for a different place. I don't have a problem with it; I appreciate this forum tremendously for the sheer fact that we can *discuss* all this without the moderators getting their panties in a bunch. That's very nice indeed.


Andria

Another winner

 

[BigNasty]

We have a winner

really?

 

[nabibrian]

What's the prize? lol

 

[5150sick]

really?

The concern was people dropping links to "herbal eliquid" and someone getting an unwanted surprise.
We are thinking about allowing how to's to making your own herbal extracts but not allowing links to finished product.

Some sites sell crazy research chemical laced eliquid and call it "herbal eliquid".
How would one know if it were one of those sites unless they bought and tried said product?
That would be the unwanted surprise.

Please bear with us while we figure it out and teach others what to look out for.

As for the green vegetable like substance.
I used to smoke it like it was about to be extinct.

But bullshit Florida and bitch Pam Bondi are blocking me for utilizing it for pain right now

It has nothing to do with vendors and/or legality there are a million other forums that only let you discuss that stuff just not this one.

 

[BigNasty]

The concern was people dropping links to "herbal eliquid" and someone getting an unwanted surprise.
We are thinking about allowing how to's to making your own herbal extracts but not allowing links to finished product.
Some site sell crazy research chemical laced eliquid and call it "herbal eliquid".
How would one know if it were one of those site unless they bought and tried said product?
That would be the unwanted surprise.
Please bear with us while we figure it out and teach other what to look out for.

As for the green vegetable like substance.
I used to smoke it like it was about to be extinct.
But bullshit Florida and bitch Pam Bondi are blocking me for utilizing it for pain right now

It has nothing to do with vendors and/or legality there are a million other forums that only let you discuss that stuff just not this one.

while I can see the need for some extracts those use of a couple and the main one were not showing inhalation friendly. which is what made me think of spice.

The issues from herbal extracts even in a non vape alcohol base is the dosages can and are way the fuck out of whack. A dose to high and you start running into real world bodily damage issues.
Some are fatty ester activated on gut absorption, removing that has a zero sum benefit or toxic body response. Let alone in an improper dosage.

I would not trust Joe average or Suzie mediocre to tie their shoes correctly let alone not just pick up some herbal to treat some webmd symptom let alone an otc. Let alone how to calc a dose of licorice root extract exactly and safely that does not shove them the fuck into induced renal failure.