Ammit non-clapton flavour build for 30-35 watts

[Fragility]

The serpent mini has been my go-to tank for a while. I like restricted lung hits, and prefer to vape at around 30-35 watts with simple kanthal builds to conserve juice while prioritising flavour. I just got the Geekvape Ammit but I'm struggling to get it to perform as well in terms of flavour. I've tried every combination of 24ga kanthal, 26 twisted, 28 twisted, spaced, 2.5mm/3mm but just can't settle on anything. I must have rebuild this tank 20 times this last week.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a flavour build for 30-35 watts that they're happy with? Like I said i'd prefer to avoid claptons for the sake of the amount of juice they get through. The best build i've tried so far is 26ga twisted 5/6 wrap 3mm but it's still not beating my serpent mini with a simple spaced 24ga 6 wrap 2.5mm. I think the size of the chamber is the reason, hence why I've been tending to try bigger coils

 

[HondaDavidson]

Imo your using the wrong wire....... sounds to me you would get closer to the result you want if you tried Nichrome or SS builds..... also using steamengine to model some build might also help... pay more attention to surface area than ohm rate.

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[PhantomOp]

Well, if you can build a simple fused clapton coil, here are a couple of builds that I really like in my Ammit tanks.

3mm ID @ 6.5 wraps -- comes in at .8ohms and has 778mm surface area.
28awg KA-1 (x2) with 36awg KA1 wrap

3mm ID @ 6.5 wraps -- comes in at .524ohms and has 963mm surface area.
26awg KA-1 (x2) with 36awg KA1 wrap

3mm ID @ 5.5 spaced wraps -- comes in at .685ohms and has 665mm surface area.
28awg KA-1 (x2) with 36awg KA1 wrap

If going to a SS wire, this may require higher wattage to get good temp and ramp up -- Gives very good TC.

3mm ID @ 6.5 wraps -- comes in at .414ohms and has 778mm surface area.
28awg SS316L (x2) with 36awg SS316L wrap

3mm ID @ 6.5 wraps -- comes in at .271ohms and has 963mm surface area.
26awg SS316L (x2) with 36awg SS316L wrap


I use steam-engine to get a "pre build" idea of how I want to work out the coils.
http://www.steam-engine.org/wirewiz.asp

 

[kargurin]

I'm using 24 ga. SS316L spaced. Never gotten it to wick efficiently on a consistent basis. But I use high VG juice. I still use the tank because I like looking at it. Anyway, flavor, no bueno.

 

[PhantomOp]

Surprisingly, I've had the best wicking when using a 2.5mm ID coil / cotton on a regular SS spaced coil. When going up to a 3mm or a 3.5mm ID standard coil the cotton would get to thick in the juice well and then introduce some leaking.

 

[Fragility]

I've tried a fused kanthal clapton 28x2/32 5.5 wrap 3mm I'd. Came out at 0.69 but the ramp up was pretty slow even at 35 watts.

I have some ss clapton and ss 24ga that I'm yet to try. I was under the impression that ss heats up faster than kanthal (in wattage mode), but according to steam engine it doesn't. Would anyone be able to clarify?

 

[HondaDavidson]

Gauge for gauge SS is faster... that doesn't mean the resulting build will be faster.

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[Fragility]

Gauge for gauge SS is faster... that doesn't mean the resulting build will be faster.

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I mean in terms of surface area. So identical builds of ss/kanthal with the same gauge/wraps/Id?

 

[kevin littell]

My favorite is still a 5/6 wrap 3.5 mm Kanthal for about an ohm...26 ga KA1....Nothing twisted or fused just a plain jane coil.

 

[Fragility]

I'm using 24 ga. SS316L spaced. Never gotten it to wick efficiently on a consistent basis. But I use high VG juice. I still use the tank because I like looking at it. Anyway, flavor, no bueno.

Do you mean you're getting dry hits? I'm using 80 vg and i've never seemed to have any issues with wicking. I'm not sure if wicking could contribute to lack of flavour if i'm still able to push the build to 40 watts without it dry hitting.

 

[PhantomOp]

wicking could contribute to lack of flavour

Over wicking can seriously mute the flavor on some juices.

A previous forum thread, I put some pictures up of how I've found to wick the Ammit tank and have good flavor and wicking success.
http://vapingunderground.com/thread...w-single-coil-tank.287587/page-3#post-1502616

 

[kargurin]

Do you mean you're getting dry hits? I'm using 80 vg and i've never seemed to have any issues with wicking. I'm not sure if wicking could contribute to lack of flavour if i'm still able to push the build to 40 watts without it dry hitting.

Nope just wimpy clouds and flavor. I've wicked it a few times already. Then take a good look after I drain a tank. I admire my work then switch to a Merlin or Billow 2.5 or Griffin Plus. Those tanks don't hate me. I'm DTL big inhale and this one isn't delivering the goods. For me. But that's just me. I believe you.


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[PhantomOp]

Nope just wimpy clouds and flavor. I've wicked it a few times already. Then take a good look after I drain a tank. I admire my work then switch to a Merlin or Billow 2.5 or Griffin Plus. Those tanks don't hate me. I'm DTL big inhale and this one isn't delivering the goods. For me. But that's just me. I believe you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

let me know when/if you want to sell it ... i'll buy it off ya.

 

[Fragility]

Over wicking can seriously mute the flavor on some juices.

A previous forum thread, I put some pictures up of how I've found to wick the Ammit tank and have good flavor and wicking success.
http://vapingunderground.com/thread...w-single-coil-tank.287587/page-3#post-1502616

Thanks. Yeah I have seen that thread. When it comes to wicking i'm always worried about not having enough/the ends of the fibres on the outside not being able to reach the deck, but then sometimes i end up with a bend in the wick.

The build that you were using in those pictures, was that a dl or mtl build out of curiosity?

 

[PhantomOp]

Being that it was a 3mm ID clapton SS coil, that would have not have been a MTL draw for me. However, when running in TC mode, my wife kept that coil at 370F and was able to keep the airflow down without issues (MTL type draw).

 

[Fragility]

Being that it was a 3mm ID clapton SS coil, that would have not have been a MTL draw for me. However, when running in TC mode, my wife kept that coil at 370F and was able to keep the airflow down without issues (MTL type draw).

Would a ss clapton heat up faster than a kanthal one? Identical wire/build I mean

 

[PhantomOp]

Heat capacity affects the coil lag / ramp up time. Lower number means faster coil.

 

[Fragility]

Heat capacity affects the coil lag / ramp up time. Lower number means faster coil.

View attachment 70751
View attachment 70752

Yeah that's what I thought. But I keep hearing that ss heats up faster than kanthal.

 

[PhantomOp]

No, SS does not heat faster than kanthal.
There is a cool trick however to get a clapton SS to heat up faster. You can use what is called a "staged clapton". Basically a nichrome N80 or kanthal wire parallel to it.

(Image stolen from PureCoils.com @CrazyChef --- Kick ass coils from a Kick ass member.)
https://www.purecoils.com/collections/coils-1/products/staged-clapton-coils

 

[PhantomOp]

i'd prefer to avoid claptons

I apologize Fragility -- I didn't even catch this comment in your post. However, with that said, I'm pretty sure you will have a "basic" flavor with a "basic" coil build. It's really hard to top the flavor output of the Clapton style coils, and yes, unfortunately they do consume more juice, because they are giving much more/better vapor production. Also as previously posted by others before, the more surface area coverage on the cotton (bigger ID coils) will give a bump to the flavor output (ie vapor output).

I can tinker with my Ammit this evening with some basic coil builds to see if I can come up with something that may work better for flavor and good wicking.

 

[CrazyChef]

No, SS does not heat faster than kanthal.

Actually, it does have a much quicker ramp up time - as does nichrome. That's the reasoning behind having the staged heating coils that you pictured.
Whenever my desired resistance allows, I always prefer SS because of the fast ramp up.

 

[CrazyChef]

Does anyone have any recommendations for a flavour build for 30-35 watts that they're happy with? Like I said i'd prefer to avoid claptons for the sake of the amount of juice they get through.

Like the others have said - more juice consumption equals more flavor.
The thing with Claptons vs Fused Claptons is that you can stay at the lower wattage you like with single core Claptons and still increase the flavor over plain wire coils. Most Fused Clapton coils use higher wattage, as they are basically parallel coils bound together. This binding helps create a well between the two core wires, and will move the juice into the well, thus giving you more flavor and increasing the amount of juice consumed.

 

[PhantomOp]

Actually, it does have a much quicker ramp up time - as does nichrome. That's the reasoning behind having the staged heating coils that you pictured.
Whenever my desired resistance allows, I always prefer SS because of the fast ramp up.

Then steam-engine is wrong? That statement was taken directly from their site and coil builds.

 

[CrazyChef]

I guess. I know from experience that if I make 2 identical sets of coils - one from kanthal and the other from SS - the SS ones have a very noticeable difference in the ramp up speed.

 

[PhantomOp]

the SS ones have a very noticeable difference in the ramp up speed

I agree -- I have seen the same thing. However, I was going off of what steam-engine was saying --- that will teach me to believe everything I read.

 

[PhantomOp]

"There are a lot of positives to using Stainless Steel wire for building coils. Some vapers can use 304 SS (Kitchen grade SS), but as a builder of coils I want Surgical Grade SS, otherwise known as 316 SS. If you choose Stainless Steel for your own coil building or as the wire in the coil head of your favorite sub-ohm tank, take note that the Stainless Steel should be 316-grade.

Stainless Steel has almost no ramp up time. Click the Fire button and the coils just light right up! Stainless steel is also naturally low resistance (though not super low like Nickel). Some coil builders are beginning to refer to Stainless Steel as The New Kanthal because of it’s low resistance, malleable features and it gives a clean(er) flavor."

https://spinfuel.com/temperature-coefficients-coil-wires/

Another blog -- http://deepvapors.com/ultimate-vaping-wire-types-options-guide/

@Fragility --- I stand corrected and steam-engine is showing very inaccurate information.

Thank you @CrazyChef for pointing out what I was already thinking.

 

[Fragility]

Ah, I was certain that that was the case after I put a 10 wrap 3mm 24 ga ss build in and it fired up pretty much instantly on my 521 tab. There must be some aspect of the wire/heating process that steam engine doesn't account for.

I just put in a 2.5mm 5.5 wrap 28x2/32 clapton to see if the ramp up is any better. I'll have to try a ss clapton after that - I just got a hold of 3 reels but once I heard it heats up slower I didn't even bother trying it.

I just want this tank to perform in some capacity up to the standard of my serpent mini, even if it takes a clapton at this point.

 

[Fragility]

I apologize Fragility -- I didn't even catch this comment in your post. However, with that said, I'm pretty sure you will have a "basic" flavor with a "basic" coil build. It's really hard to top the flavor output of the Clapton style coils, and yes, unfortunately they do consume more juice, because they are giving much more/better vapor production. Also as previously posted by others before, the more surface area coverage on the cotton (bigger ID coils) will give a bump to the flavor output (ie vapor output).

I can tinker with my Ammit this evening with some basic coil builds to see if I can come up with something that may work better for flavor and good wicking.

Thanks, I'd really appreciate it. I have such a hard time trusting my own jugement when it comes to the flavour of certain builds that I tend to prefer using those recommended by others to be honest.

 

[Eskie]

Comparing ramp up between coils by metal alone can be deceiving. Yes, SS has a very fast ramp up time. But a 316L 26/30 Clapton will not light right up when you fire it. More mass, longer ramp up. Faster than Kanthal? Yes, but not instant. I still need a preheat in TC to ramp it up to my happy place.

A simple round 316L? Yes, that ramps right up.

 

[Fragility]

Comparing ramp up between coils by metal alone can be deceiving. Yes, SS has a very fast ramp up time. But a 316L 26/30 Clapton will not light right up when you fire it. More mass, longer ramp up. Faster than Kanthal? Yes, but not instant. I still need a preheat in TC to ramp it up to my happy place.

A simple round 316L? Yes, that ramps right up.

I mean at the same wattage and build, ie an identical 28x2/32 clapton build with the same mass, ss vs clapton at 35 watts the ss build would heat up faster and therefore would be more practical for my preferred wattage range.

 

[CrazyChef]

Exactly

 

[Fragility]

How does ss work in wattage mode in terms of the change in ohms? Not all of my mods lock the ohms automatically in wattage mode, so if I were to chain vape presumably this could be an issue as it would be drawing more volts than it should?

 

[DX9]

I started using SS316 about 6 months ago. Really like using it. When i got my GeekVape Ammit I decided to try some Clapton. Blowing through juice like never before. Never knew Claptons used that much juice until I came to this thread. I thought there was something wrong and thought it must be leaking somewhere lol. Mind you the flavour is awesome. Went and made a SS 24AWG 7 wraps and hitting .32 Ohms at 30 watts and going to compare the consumption for hell of it

 

[Fragility]

Just put in a ss 28x2/30 clapton 5.5 wrap 3mm. It seemed to heat up even slower than the equivalent build in kanthal, so now I'm confused. Is it to do with the amount of volts it draws? The ohms was locked at 0.45, compared to the 0.68 of the kanthal build. I didn't think volts would affect the ramp up since that's only relevant to the battery.

 

[Woodchucker]

4 strand twisted 28g stainless, don't twist it very tight, you'll be good to go!

 

[Fragility]

I started using SS316 about 6 months ago. Really like using it. When i got my GeekVape Ammit I decided to try some Clapton. Blowing through juice like never before. Never knew Claptons used that much juice until I came to this thread. I thought there was something wrong and thought it must be leaking somewhere lol. Mind you the flavour is awesome. Went and made a SS 24AWG 7 wraps and hitting .32 Ohms at 30 watts and going to compare the consumption for hell of it

I've considered trying just regular 24ga ss to get more surface area than kanthal. I've heard that when using it in a contact build in wattage mode it's prone to hotspots though, I got to the point of installing a 9.5 wrap 3mm contact build it and priming my wicks but I was getting a weird crackling noise from my wicks so I just pulled it out. Let me know how it goes.

 

[kargurin]

Over wicking can seriously mute the flavor on some juices.

A previous forum thread, I put some pictures up of how I've found to wick the Ammit tank and have good flavor and wicking success.
http://vapingunderground.com/thread...w-single-coil-tank.287587/page-3#post-1502616

Ok I took a look at this and tried to replicate your wicking. So I used a little less and I fluffed alot at the ends. And cut the length. This seems to help alot. I did a high VG tank last night and found myself with more flavor and better efficiency. This thing isn't blowing clouds as well as Mr. Merlin. But it is performing much better. Maybe I'll try power mode next. Right now I have a spaced SS build but maybe a powered kanthal/clapton would give me more cloud combustion.

 

[PhantomOp]

Ok I took a look at this and tried to replicate your wicking. So I used a little less and I fluffed alot at the ends. And cut the length. This seems to help alot. I did a high VG tank last night and found myself with more flavor and better efficiency. This thing isn't blowing clouds as well as Mr. Merlin. But it is performing much better. Maybe I'll try power mode next. Right now I have a spaced SS build but maybe a powered kanthal/clapton would give me more cloud combustion.

If you already have SS wire, I would use a single core SS 26 with 36 wrap. The smaller wrap will help vapor the juice better (more joooze in the coil) --- and it's easier to wrap I think. Personally --- I prefer wattage mode over TC mode. I think it delivers better flavor / vapor. My wife feels differently however and can't handle "heat" ....

 

[kargurin]

I've kinda gravitated to temp control since I've gotten my hands on DNA devices. Regular mods generally don't do it well IMO. Temp control with DNA doesn't do as well in something like the Boreas where you've got a lot of juice to burn in a lot of wicking. Don't know why.


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[Fragility]

If you already have SS wire, I would use a single core SS 26 with 36 wrap. The smaller wrap will help vapor the juice better (more joooze in the coil) --- and it's easier to wrap I think. Personally --- I prefer wattage mode over TC mode. I think it delivers better flavor / vapor. My wife feels differently however and can't handle "heat" ....

I actually just tried a ss 26/32 5.5 wrap 3mm, ramp up was still pretty slow at 30-35 watts. Did you get a chance to try any standard wire builds? I've gone back to 26 twisted 5.5 3mm which seems to be the best simple build i've tried so far. I'm interested in 24ga ss builds and perhaps some spaced kanthal. I've stayed away from 2.5mm coils in this tank so far other than with a clapton, which was actually the best performing out of the clapton builds I've tried.

 

[CrazyChef]

I actually just tried a ss 26/32 5.5 wrap 3mm, ramp up was still pretty slow at 30-35 watts.

I've gone back to 26 twisted 5.5 3mm which seems to be the best simple build i've tried so far.

Am I missing something? It's contradictory that 2 pieces of 26g would heat up faster than a single piece.

 

[Fragility]

Am I missing something? It's contradictory that 2 pieces of 26g would heat up faster than a single piece.

Just twisted 26ga (non clapton). Might not seem logical, but it does. On steam engine claptons always have over 100 heat capacity, twisted 26ga without the outer wire is around 60 I think.

 

[PhantomOp]

1/2 the surface area on a twisted and 1/2 the resistivity ohm/m

 

[Fragility]

With twisted builds I just select the option 'twisted/parallel' on the regular coil tab, so I guess that's why. There's a pretty big difference in heat flux though.

I'm still yet to establish whether ss actually does heat up faster than kanthal. I think a lot has to do with ss retaining more heat, which is why when bedding in coils it appears to fire up instantly. My identical ss/kanthal 28x2/32 claptons were roughly the same once I started vaping on them at 30 watts in wattage mode.

 

[HondaDavidson]

With twisted builds I just select the option 'twisted/parallel' on the regular coil tab, so I guess that's why. There's a pretty big difference in heat flux though.

I'm still yet to establish whether ss actually does heat up faster than kanthal. I think a lot has to do with ss retaining more heat, which is why when bedding in coils it appears to fire up instantly. My identical ss/kanthal 28x2/32 claptons were roughly the same once I started vaping on them at 30 watts in wattage mode.

The twisted us faster than the clapton because there is no excess wrap wire to heatup. The wrap for the most part is not part of the heating element... it counts more as part of the wick.

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[PhantomOp]

The twisted us faster than the clapton because there is no excess wrap wire to heatup. The wrap for the most part is not part of the heating element... it counts more as part of the wick.
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Exactly why I prefer 36-40awg wire for my clapton wrapping.

 

[CrazyChef]

My personal favorite is 2x26/38, no matter what the wire consists of. Gives a great vape.

 

[Fragility]

I never paid much attention to the external wrap of a clapton, I figured that the core wire was the most important when it comes to heat up. Does it make a big difference in that aspect?

 

[HondaDavidson]

I never paid much attention to the external wrap of a clapton, I figured that the core wire was the most important when it comes to heat up. Does it make a big difference in that aspect?

The core is the heating element. ... in the old days a Clapton was called a self wicking coil. As the wrap will have so high a resistance to not count electrically. Now the metal of the wrap does add to ramp up time. More metal need more time or power to get hot.

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[PhantomOp]

Does it make a big difference in that aspect

IMO --- yes.
1) wrapping with a 32awg was a pain (to stiff) and added more wire to the build.
2) smaller guage wire heats faster than a thick wire.
3) gives more "crevices" for the juice to sit in, thereby giving more juice on the coil to vaporize.

These are just my observations -- I am by no means a professional coil builder and will admit that I am still learning all the ins/outs of coil building.