Anyone Else Trying to Get Around Butyric Acid?

You know... the chem that replaced diacetyl, acetyl propionyl (A/P) and/or acetoin to create the buttery notes? I found I can't vape the flavors I got that have been reformulated to use butyric acid. I looked it up when I discovered this and found it's an irritant when inhaled. Yup, feels that way to me.

I'll have to make up my own Banana Cream by using regular Banana and adding Vanilla Swirl. I guess Bavarian Cream will be tough since I don't think I've ever seen a plain Bavarian. Anyone else trying to devise their own creamy flavors minus any butter notes?

FlavourArt. No butter notes, super creamy creams that taste good.

Thanks Huckleberrie. But no butyric acid either? From what I understand you can't make a cream or butter note without it, if not using diacetyl, AP or acetoin. I'll look at FlavourArt's website to see if they mention BA.

http://flavourartnaflavourreports.com/ You can enter or click on any of their flavorings. The "kitchen line" flavorings do note where diacetyl is used, but they promote for their kitchen line, not their ecig flavors.

Huckleberried said:

http://flavourartnaflavourreports.com/ You can enter or click on any of their flavorings. The "kitchen line" flavorings do note where diacetyl is used, but they promote for their kitchen line, not their ecig flavors.

Click to expand...

That was very helpful. Thanks! Unfortunately the tests are only for diacetyl and AP. They do not show acetoin, which is also believed to convert to diacetyl and is another 'unwanted' chem (for those who bother to avoid the diacetyl-related chems).

BA is not mentioned, probably b/c there is no 'offensive' against including it as a butter note, since it's the only butter note left after diacetyl, AP and acetoin are eliminated, and it does not revert to diacetyl. But my guess is that FA uses acetoin for their butter note, as it doesn't irritate like BA can, and has a better flavor. (Some ppl describe BA as tasting like vomit if it's too strong, and in fact is present in vomit!) IAC I opened a ticket at the FA site to ask specifically if they use acetoin or butryic acid in some specific flavors. I will report back in this thread when I get an answer in case future readers (or present ones) are interested in their answer. I asked about these flavors:

Butterscotch
Caramel Flavor
Cream Fresh
Vanilla Classic
Condensed Milk

FTR FlavourArt responded that they removed diacetyl a long time ago and never used A/P... then referenced the links to the tests which show the flavors are diacetyl and AP-free.... completely ignoring the part of my question regarding acetoin or butyric acid. I tried once more (and will report back if they respond again), but they must use at least one of these in their cream/butter flavors, and I'm guessing it's acetoin.

FlavourArt isn't alone though... there is another top flavor manuf I can't think of right now that also widely advertises as being D-A/P-free, but there is no mention of acetoin on their site either.

@HeadInClouds might be able to give you more info as he is the resident FA expert. I'm not a chemist by any means, but what I do know is that there is NO other company that is so transparent about their flavors and what is in them. Remember, they are in Italy and the person responding to your question probably just gave you a standard link that they use for questions like yours. Maybe HIC will see this and respond or I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you emailed him directly.

It's not just present in vomit, it's the most dominant odor element in vomit, but I suppose that in such small quantities you shouldn't be able to smell it.

soulshine said:

@HeadInClouds NO other company that is so transparent about their flavors and what is in them.

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As far as I remember FA don't provide detailed chemical composition lists (while TFA do)

I got another response. It's nice they ARE responsive. But there's another foible in the reply that is partly my fault. I'd replied back that I understood diacetyl and A/P were not present in the flavors I inquired about, but that the question of acetonin and butyric acid was not answered. This was the response I received:

--begin paste --

In respons to your ticket "acetonin, acetyl propionyl, butyric acid".

Hello
Acetone is not.
Butyric acid is present in all except cream and vanilla

Cordiali saluti/Best regards,

Massimiliano

--end paste

The foible is that he stated acetone is not present but that's a completely different chemical (used in nail polish) and not what I asked about. MY mistake was I asked about "acetonin" when it's spelled "acetoin". Plus we are bridging a language gap. I corrected my mistake and hope they will indulge me one last time so this can be answered.

Again, the flavors he is addressing that I asked about were:

Butterscotch (BA)
Caramel Flavor (BA)
Cream Fresh
Vanilla Classic
Condensed Milk (BA)

... I added "(BA)" to the ones he indicated use butyric acid... which just to re-state is not associated with diacetyl and is not considered so far to be a chemical to be overtly concerned about, but it is listed (in its safety sheet which you can see on TFA's site) as an irritant to inhale, which might or might not be of any concern to readers. It does bother me which is the only reason I asked about it. I just didn't want to buy a bunch of flavors I couldn't vape. But others might be perfectly fine with it.

So we'll see if Cream Fresh and Vanilla Classic use acetoin. If they respond I will update this thread.

soulshine said:

[...] Remember, they are in Italy and the person responding to your question probably just gave you a standard link that they use for questions like yours. Maybe HIC will see this and respond or I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you emailed him directly.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Soulshine. I have a very high regard for FlavourArt. I'm sure HIC is probably a great resource for FA info, but I'd like an answer from FA directly about whether or not acetoin is in the specific flavors I mentioned, now that I know which ones have BA. Seems unlikely anyone would know for sure, except FA chemists, since the info isn't on their site!

HIC took the time to contact FA and talk to a chemist there about BA in their flavors. This thread has the information he got from them about it. It's interesting. http://vapingunderground.com/thread...yl-and-acetoin-in-flavorings.3351/#post-39158

FWIW, I've tried other vendors flavors with BA in them and haven't been happy. I'm not sure if it was the BA, the particular flavors or what. I have not had similar issues with FA.

FlavourArt replied already! This is what he said:

---paste--

> In respons to your ticket "acetonin, acetyl propionyl, butyric acid".
>
> Hi
> Acetone has been corrected by my computer when I I have written acetoin.
> I confirm not in
>
> Cordiali saluti/Best regards,
>
> Massimiliano
>
> Sincerely,
>
> FlavourArt
> http://www.flavourartexpress.biz

--- end paste --

So looks like Cream Fresh and Vanilla Classic, according to FlavourtArt's replies, are the only two that do not contain BA *or* acetoin (nor D-AP). I'm a little surprised about the Fresh Cream since butter, custard, and cream notes typically use either D-AP-A or BA. But good on them. I will try the Fresh Cream and Vanilla Classic, myself.

WhiteHighlights said:

HIC took the time to contact FA and talk to a chemist there about BA in their flavors. This thread has the information he got from them about it. It's interesting. http://vapingunderground.com/thread...yl-and-acetoin-in-flavorings.3351/#post-39158

Click to expand...

Thanks, I happened upon that thread earlier and did read through most of it, and it was very interesting.

FWIW, I've tried other vendors flavors with BA in them and haven't been happy. I'm not sure if it was the BA, the particular flavors or what. I have not had similar issues with FA.

Click to expand...

I was pondering the same thing when reading earlier on how BA can be molecularly different depending on things I am not qualified to repeat. I wondered if maybe FA's "iteration" of BA would be different. But I'm happier eliminating it, considering its inhalation warnings. However you make a good point that for people only eliminating BA due to it bothering them, or tasting bad to them, BA flavors by one company may vape differently than BA flavors from another. It probably depends too on how much BA is in it.