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Feel free to hate me... [discussion/rant]

zaroba

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Member For 5 Years
As a more direct, and possibly side tracking response,

If you really do care about sanitary vaping, try to use PG based e-liquids.
Source: http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregistration/REDs/propylene_glycol_red.pdf

page 4 paragraph 1 said:
Propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol were first registered in 1950 and 1959, respectively, by the FDA for use in hospitals as air disinfectants. (page 4, paragraph 1).

page 6 paragraph 2 said:
Indoor Non-Food: Propylene glycol is used on the following use sites: air treatment (eating establishments, hospital, commercial, institutional, household, bathroom, transportational facilities); medical premises and equipment, commercial, institutional and industrial premises and equipment;

page 6 paragraph 6 said:
Method and Rates of Application
Air Sanitizer
Read the directions included with the automatic dispenser for proper installation of unit and refill. Remove cap from aerosol can and place in a sequential aerosol dispenser which automatically releases a metered amount every 15 minutes. One unit should treat 6000 ft of closed air space… For regular, non-metered applications, spray room until a light fog forms. To sanitize the air, spray 6 to 8 seconds in an average size room (10’x10′).

page 10 paragraphs 1 & 2 said:
General Toxicity Observations
Upon reviewing the available toxicity information, the Agency has concluded that there are no endpoints of concern for oral, dermal, or inhalation exposure to propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol. This conclusion is based on the results of toxicity testing of propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol in which dose levels near or above testing limits (as established in the OPPTS 870 series harmonized test guidelines) were employed in experimental animal studies and no significant toxicity observed.

Carcinogenicity Classification
A review of the available data has shown propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol to be negative for carcinogenicity in studies conducted up to the testing limit doses established by the Agency; therefore, no further carcinogenic analysis is required.

2. FQPA Safety Factor
The FQPA Safety Factor (as required by the Food Quality Protection Act of 1996) is intended to provide an additional 10-fold safety factor (10X), to protect for special sensitivity in infants and children to specific pesticide residues in food, drinking water, or residential exposures, or to compensate for an incomplete database. The FQPA Safety Factor has been removed (i.e., reduced to 1X) for propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol because there is no pre- or post-natal evidence for increased susceptibility following exposure. Further, the Agency has concluded that there are no endpoints of concern for oral, dermal, or inhalation exposure to propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol based on the low toxicity observed in studies conducted near or above testing limit doses as established in the OPPTS 870 series harmonized test guidelines. Therefore, quantitative risk assessment was not conducted for propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol.



As for an independant study on PG:
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.36.4.390
The report of the 3 years’ study of the clinical application of the disinfection of air by glycol vapors in a children’s convalescent home showed a marked reduction in the number of acute respiratory infections occurring in the wards treated with both propylene and triethylene glycols. Whereas in the control wards, 132 infections occured during the course of three winters, there were only 13 such instances in the glycol wards during the same period. The fact that children were, for the most part, chronically confined to bed presented an unusually favorable condition for the prophylactic action of the glycol vapor.

An investigation of the effect of triethylene glycol vapor on the respiratory disease incidence in military barracks brought out the fact that, while for the first 3 weeks after new personnel entered the glycolized area the disease rate remained the same as in the control barracks, the second 3 week period showed a 65 percent reduction in acute respiratory infections in the glycol treated barracks. Similar effects were observed in respect to airborne hemolytic streptococci and throat carriers of this microorganism.
 

Mykline

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Member For 4 Years
Curly- I see where you're coming from, and that's another thing altogether. One could also argue that ecigs/vaping devices are potentially more dangerous, though, if the user isn't properly educated on how to use their ecig. It's kind of like the whole cell phone thing, in a way. Cell phones pose a major fire hazard, but they may not cause a lot of harm, or casualties. That doesn't mean we don't consider them relatively "safe," though. It's a whole different side of the topic, but another good one to debate.

M5amhan and Teresa- I'm not waiting on government studies. Honestly, I have little regard for government studies. I'm waiting for conclusive evidence, in both long term and short term studies, that points to over health. Sure, we can extrapolate the obvious, but that doesn't mean that there are other things that we're unaware of happening in our bodies.

To give you guys a prime example of what I'm talking about: there was a study done on people who used primarily artificial sweeteners (v. those who didn't substitute), and concluded that the bacteria in the gut of the consumers was significantly different in the consumers. What they took from the study was that artificial sweeteners might cause this change, but more research needed to be conducted to develop a proper conclusion. Mind you, this was a study performed within the last year, and these products have been around for well over a decade... and are still classified as a relatively safe product for consumption, based on previous peer reviewed research.

For right now, most of the studies, as well as conclusions derived from studies, are based on a certain principle: the lack of known carcinogens, and combustion, makes this a safer alternative. What we don't know? How much consumption of vapour is actually safe, before it has a negative impact on your health? What about vaporising the flavourings, and the actual health aspects involved? What will happen to the lungs of vapers over the course of 5-10 years, or more? What about the other risks, that are entirely unknown, because of a lack of regulation over this product? The list goes on.

And yes, we can bitch and moan about regulations, taxes, and all of that. That sits beside the actual point though. Until this stuff is properly regulated, and we know all of the risks involved with our products (from gas station ecigs to RDA/RTA devices), I'd say it's naive to come to any real conclusion about this stuff. Again, we can always extrapolate, but it seems like nobody wants to go that extra mile for proof.

Then again, I'm a sceptic. I'll keep on chucking clouds, unless science shows me it's worse than tobacco. That doesn't mean I'm not still curious about what I'm inhaling, and what might be down the road for me.
There have been studies done that clearly show that vaping is a lot safer then smoking. Studies that show the difference between the actual difference in the content of smoke and of the vapor from ecigs. I don't mean the study where they were burning the wicks up were no Vaper would be vaping to begin with.
 

pulsevape

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To be honest, I use both. I smoke when I go to a coffee shop, or when I'm working outdoors. I vape pretty much every other time, unless my batteries are all dead (rare, except for when I don't pack enough stuff to bring to a party). I'm probably about a 80:20 ratio for vaping/smoking, truth be told. Hey, sometimes I just can't get over the nostalgia of lighting up some cigs while reading a good book, or producing at a public place (haven't done that for a while though). It was a regular thing I did for years, and the taste brings it all back for me. I will admit, though, that cigarette consumption has gone down massively... so I can thank vaping for helping me get my nicotine fix, and for spoiling the taste of tobacco quicker.


I'm not worried about being banned lmao. Just braced for the fanboys of vaping to start talking shit ;)

And yeah, it's nice that ecig products are much more socially accepted now. Also nice that many people who made the switch feel much healthier. Still doesn't quench my scepticism, though.


I actually didn't mind smelling like smoke. I kind of enjoyed the smell... I have since I was a kid. Then again, I'm weird lol. I mainly switched because of the fact that it was a theoretically safer alternative (naive, because I tried to make the switch when I was about 17 or 18), and also because flavoured tobacco was getting squashed in the US. Plus, the flavours were hard to turn down. I remember one of the best juices I ever bought was a PERFECT Coca Cola juice. That kind of had me sold.


I still can't say it's safer. It appears to be, based on what we know, but I haven't seen the proof of it.I guess the term "safe" seems to be relative, based on the context I've seen it in.


Thanks, mate. I mean, sure, the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming... but that still isn't really proof of anything. Let's be honest here, how many people claim to have seen a UFO? While this isn't remotely the same thing, it's still anecdotal; and that's the point. People can twist that comparison, but the fact remains: there's no substantial evidence/proof that we can point to, and we know what is actually going on. Vaping is still very young, and that's mainly because of how recent it blossomed. Not to mention, the amount of varying materials being used, and the questionable recipes in liquids (namely flavourings).

I like hearing that people are feeling healthier, but it shouldn't be seen as evidence that it's a factually safer/healthier alternative. For example, there are some people who swear by apricot seeds for fighting cancer. The ACS reports that less than 10 cases (out of more than 100,000 cases) have shown it to be beneficial to cancer patients; yet there's a huge natural remedy following based on a handful of anecdotal reports about how it "fights cancer." Another strange one is I've seen anecdotal reports of people who have HIV, and claim they feel remarkably better when off their HIV medication.

All I'm getting at is that there needs to be more hard evidence before we all start following this sales-pitch-based claim that vaping is better than smoking. While the outcome may be beneficial in one aspect, the potential for worse in other industries may be severe.


What! now your a UFO denier too...what a prick!..LOL....Wow it sure seems you stirred up a hornets nest....I'm pretty surprised at people's reaction I thought it would be a bit more balanced..however that being said.With the advent of the alterntive lifestyle movment starting in the 60's we have taken more personal responsiblity for our health without the consent of the AMA...and it has been a revolution...we used accupuntcure without so called scientific proof,we started returning to prayer,and meditation,and yoga without proof,we started exercising without proof,we started eating different diets without proof,nitritional supplements,cleansings,sweat lodges,herbal remedies,.....alot of these things even folk medicine humanity has used solely on the basis of antedotal proof for thousands of years...Hell I've even heard quantum physics has finally evolved to the point where they can prove God exists.
Yes 5 years from now we could find out that Kanthal makes your penis drop off......but for those of us who have smoked for 30 or 40 years either have already had our penises fall off, or our lung capacity has been so damaged that we are willing to gamble that vaping will not only extend our lives ,but allow us to live more actively for the remainder.
To be perfectly honest I don't trust the AMA any farther than I could throw them....they serve the interests of the goverment who don't want us to live very long taking up social security and medicare,or big Pharmacutecals which they all own stock in, or in big Agriculture who tell us although it's really not neccesary for us to do reaearch on geneticlly modified frankenfood....it's of the utmost importance for us to squash an altenative to tobacco cesstion that big pharm doesn't own, and squash it right NOW....for the sake of the children.
In short if we waited for "scientific proof" as a race we would have died out before we discovered fire.
 
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KKen

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Anything you consume can be, and probably is potentially unhealthy. Bottom line, its how you body copes with said consumable that makes something unhealthy, healthy or have no effect at all.

What can wreak havoc on my health may have no effect on yours, but that doesn't make it any more healthy or unhealthy, just means you need to figure that out for yourself.

Is vaping safe? I personally don't think so, but I don't think half the food you find in supermarkets today are "safe" either. Doesn't mean I'll stop buying groceries, but I can spend a little more time to research what I buy and use if its that important to me.
 

Hottvapz

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Anything you consume can be, and probably is potentially unhealthy. Bottom line, its how you body copes with said consumable that makes something unhealthy, healthy or have no effect at all.

What can wreak havoc on my health may have no effect on yours, but that doesn't make it any more healthy or unhealthy, just means you need to figure that out for yourself.

Is vaping safe? I personally don't think so, but I don't think half the food you find in supermarkets today are "safe" either. Doesn't mean I'll stop buying groceries, but I can spend a little more time to research what I buy and use if its that important to me.
Well put!
 

Callipleura

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Well zarboa provided some pretty good links. Finding good information is a tough thing and is worth more than physical goods in lots of respects. Context is always required as things get twisted quickly if the goal post are always moving (both for and against).

Rayne - you are a duel user (don't read this as therefore: GOOD or BAD). This variable matters when reading scientific papers and I think some papers touched upon this issue. A bigger picture will be built as more research is conducted but it is going to take time as there are so many variables. I am not a duel user - different variables for me. Most studies look at a few variables so they can actually try to come to some repeatable conclusion.

Good science should not make a judgement (good or bad) or decide social policy (should we tax or not) that will come from the politicians and society (right or wrong - informed or not). Science should only state facts (and those facts can be hard and expensive to obtain).

- What are the inhalation effects of PG to the user or others in a confined space like the size of a car for example?
- Was it over a day, a week, a year or a lifetime?
- What was the grade of the PG (as it can vary)?
- Does it matter if the PG was misted due to compressed air or heated and if so at what temperature ranges?
- etc... etc... etc...

Now do it for VG.

Have a full understanding of nicotine.

Now combine PG and VG and Nic and ask all those questions again to see how the 3 variables interact.

I think up to there is reasonably known... but I am having some trouble finding "good" peer reviewed sources.

The biggest variable seems to be flavourings. There is so many flavours and each maker has lots of flavours and those flavours can be combined in infinite ways. It would be hard to truly know all this long term. And varied flavouring is important to most users in the context of vaping - if you don't need it - your life just got a lot simpler as you have killed off many variables to worry about.

But I do share your interest in knowing these type of questions... so I can make an informed choice for myself or at least know what the f**k is going on... lots of times ignorance is bliss though... but I can't help myself... lol!

Maybe DIY your own liquid... take some control of your life in some small way... learn and learn... you'll feel better about yourself... at the very least you'll know what is in the stuff... share what you learned... and ya business, products, or people might not have your best interests at heart - just their own.
Cheers
 
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Hey! it's just Ray...

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Okay, I just need to start this thread of by getting a few things out of the way. First off, I've been a huge supporter of vaping since before the damned Gamucci was released; in fact, I remember watching commercials for it, online, during classes in high school, where they had smokers trying it out (back when it was still a concept ecig). Also, the oldest receipt I have for an ecig is back in 2008, but that's for the third e-cig I ever bought. So yeah, I've been into this shit for a long time. I should also mention that I have a part-time job selling this stuff. I am not here to bash vaping, by any means.

Now, there's something that's been royally pissing me off since the inception of this product into the US market... Vaping, as far as we know, and scientifically speaking, is not necessarily a healthier alternative to smoking. On the contrary, many scientists, doctors, and health experts, will conclude that vaping is likely a healthier choice for smokers. What's getting me so annoyed is the amount of people using anecdotal evidence as "proof" of being safer, combined with evidence of relative safety that has been vaguely taken out of context from various studies of other applications. There have been no conclusive studies performed that are actually leading us believe that this is truly a healthier alternative to tobacco. End of story.

The attitude that surrounds this product (and, unfortunately, the entire culture) is nothing more than an all out sales pitch, whether the consumers realise it or not. When I go to the vapour shop I work at, and I listen to the sales pitch given by just about any of my coworkers, it's literally the exact same thing that just about any pro-vaper says; and, quite frankly, it's almost all based on anecdotal evidence. As a sceptic, a responsible employee, and as a consumer, this bugs the hell out of me. Vapour shop employees have a HUGE responsibility to the public, and nearly every single shop I've gone to tosses that responsibility out the window. The fact is, most vapers seem to blissfully ignore the fact that we don't even know what the actual health benefits are from vaping, if there are any. And no, anecdotal evidence is not as relevant as many purport it to be (scientifically and statistically speaking).

Look guys, I have dedicated a lot of money into vaping over the years. My first device was the DSE 901... which I'm betting most of you haven't the faintest idea of what it originally looked like. I've seen this industry grow into what it is today, and it's depressing. Does it mean I think we should stop vaping? Well, I'm writing this while using my Sigelei 150, and a Doge v2 with a sub .2 ohm build... So, I don't think that's remotely what I'm saying. What I am driving at is the fact that so many people are trying to convince others, and themselves, that this is safe, or has been proven to be safer than cigarettes. THIS IS FALSE. In fact, any statement outside of the "we don't know" kind should technically be considered false. The majority of statements surrounding the "safety" of vaping are based on many fallible arguments; arguments that originally were used as a reason for getting people to start looking at this scientifically.... and now it's used as speculative "proof". While no one ever says those words, that is exactly what is being implied; and it's disgusting.

Take this little rant however you guys want. I figured I'd post it, and share my side of this story. I've been lobbying for more research on these products for many years, and I've seen the same words go from a plea for more research change into a pro-vaping stance (based on safety). Is there anyone else who's been thinking about this stuff the same way as me? I'm sure there is.

But, c'est la vie. Figured I'd stir up the shit a little here, and see what happened.

I'm trying to figure out what the ruckus is all about without reading all the shit. :D
 

M5amhan

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just to be clear i would like answers to these questions too, but not so bad that im willing to give up our freedom for it. these are the arguments politicians use to brainwash people without any context. when i see this kind of stuff, then you say "once its regulated properly and we know all the risks" it just makes me want to pull my hair out
 

BigNasty

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Meh.. I don't fucking stink.
To those that snivel about it bothering them, they need to take two steps back and fuck their own faces... then when done self face fucking go take a mother fucking shower with soap and burn their clothes from the toxic miasma of body spray.
 

Rayne

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Wow... some of these responses are just... I really don't know whether to laugh or cry. You guys take me as someone trying to be convinced that this is relatively safer than cigarettes. I'm not trying to be convinced, asking for convincing points, or for personal opinions; in fact, I've never asked for that, and have stated many times that is exactly what I'm tired of hearing. I may not have directly stated that I'm looking for scientific proof on this forum, but I have made that substantially clear in all the posts I've made.

My favoring of having this stuff regulated isn't a political stance, nor any other stance; it's just a fact that regulation would make this kind of scientific testing immensely easier to conduct. FACT. Regulated juices, devices, materials... everything... would make this extremely easier to research, in order to develop a sane conclusion on actual relative safety. Everyone who wants to get butt hurt over that is welcome to; but ignoring that basic fact is asinine.

Everyone who's riled up over what I've said is taking this way too personally. Is it because you guys are the kind of people who drive me nuts, and you guys are the reason I think many vape shops are both in legal and moral hot water, AND the reason I think many vape shops need to either go through a serious change in the way the promote their products... or be shut down entirely? Well, that's a possibility... but that doesn't give you a right to take a basic rant as fuel for a debate that was instigated over something very simple: facts.

Look you guys, I'm not trying to prove one thing or another. Whether I've outright said that already, I didn't even think it mattered. Looks like that needed to be said (and likely will go ignored). For those of you who need the personal details to see this: I ride a motorcycle, in AZ, usually with nothing more than a helmet for protection, and happily split lanes at high speeds (90+ mph)... I think the side effects of vaping are quite minor, compared to some of my other life choices. Satisfied that I'm not a health and safety nut? I mean, come on; this is just puerile, having to explain this shit.

It's almost like I've asked a group of religious people to prove they have the "right" religion, and to prove their god(s) exist... Again, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Give all your safety advice to someone who's looking for it; I obviously am not. I'm just asking relevant question, and looking for real answers. If you guys don't want to do that? Well, I'm not sorry I cause such a riot over nothing :)
 

Whiskey

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You are the one who started a thread like this and asked for comments and opinions, we are all entitled to ours along with you yours, as with anything in life, it may not be what you want to hear. Good luck with your quest to get the answers you wish to hear.Happy vaping

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UncleRJ

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This is a perfect place to insert the old "Lets Agree To Disagree" Mantra.

Lets all sit back, chill a bit and just enjoy the discussion without anything being pinched in our respective undies shall we?
 

pulsevape

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I don't know if you're being totally fair there Rayne....I was with a group of people who first started using porous ceramic wicks.At that time nobody was making them and we had to make our own. among the group were engineers,doctors,and a toxicologist,all these guys lent their knowledge and expertise to find a healthy solution.The amount of research and study was intense.
Let's be honest it is not the vaping community looking for an answer they want to hear...on the contrary it's the goverment and elite that have already villified vaping from the start,we are guilty until proven innocent...which is fine,but they are not even willing to listen to reason.

So once the goverment "regulates" vaping will you feel safe?Do I seriuosly have to list the crimes and betrayls of the goverment against the citizens of the country to make you doubt their motives?Does any sane person with the IQ of eggplant trust the goverment?
You know as well as I do the intense research of every aspect of vaping the people in the community have spent researching and policing themselves...it is an unparellled phenomena in my life.

We were left alone for a longtime,because we were thought to be a passing fad.the lunatic fringe..they sat back and waited for us to go away.Instead a billion dollar a year industry was built in the garages and small shops and labs of individuals being funded and supported by other individuals...without the help of the goverment without corporations without big banks. In a time in history when we have the largest domestic survallince systemm the world has ever seen,when the goverment and the banks control virtually every aspect of our lives,when control over everything from our life in the womb to the disposal of our ashes is controlled by the state and oppression is lauded as not just "the smart thing to do",but is neccesarry for the very survival of the planet,and freedom has become synonimus with pornography and a crime against life itself..

The fact that the individuals in freedom and cooperation built such an industry from the ground up is frankly amazing.We have always been the first to police ourselves...we have been the ones who researched materials and ingredents we who studied the effects of high tempratures and gases,we who have held our products up to the light,we who have constntlly made a safer product,and demanded a safer product.....sure there are mindless twats who shove batteries into their pockets with their car keys and change ,sure there are idiots building .000000000032 coils and lighting them up with their car batteries,sure there are people vaping pond scum.and illegal herbs.....but as a wise man once said "you can't fix stupid" but I tust you,and your and the integrity and common sense and abilities of the people in the community a helluva alot more than the goverment's
 

JColt

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Actually a really good post. All I can answer is for me. The night before I started vaping I was in bed and felt like I had 600 pounds laying on my chest. I knew in the morning it was going to be cold and that meant gagging sometimes so bad I would vomit. 2 years last month and I can breath and cold or heat does not come close to bothering me like it did 2 years ago. Maybe or maybe not safer but defiantly much better. Also I should be allowed to vape. As long as I'm not stealing, murdering or forcing someone to vape then the government should just fuckoff.
 

stevegmu

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I don't believe the studies on either side- at this point. They find what the researcher set out to find and generally what whoever funded the study wants.
As it is, I am healthier not being a regular smoker, but I quit smoking as part of a healthy living plan. Is vaping better than not vaping? No. Is it better to vape instead of smoke? Yes- at least the way I vape...
 

Teresa P

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A lot of smokers are still waiting for these studies before making the switch but many will be dead before they find out.
Fer real....we have a girl at work who blatantly told me she'd never smoke one of "those" (in reference to my vape).... "Too many chemicals!"
Yet she tells me this while choking on a Marlboro.....


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Rayne

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You are the one who started a thread like this and asked for comments and opinions, we are all entitled to ours along with you yours, as with anything in life, it may not be what you want to hear. Good luck with your quest to get the answers you wish to hear.Happy vaping

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People can be entitled to their opinions, but voicing opinions as fact is a whole different thing entirely. If you reread a lot of the posts here, there's plenty of opinions that aren't voiced as just opinions. There's also a very large number of posts I've read (scattered throughout the forums) that voice an opinion as more than just an opinion. That's a problem, because it's going to cause more misinformation than many realise.

I don't know if you're being totally fair there Rayne....I was with a group of people who first started using porous ceramic wicks.At that time nobody was making them and we had to make our own. among the group were engineers,doctors,and a toxicologist,all these guys lent their knowledge and expertise to find a healthy solution.The amount of research and study was intense.
Let's be honest it is not the vaping community looking for an answer they want to hear...on the contrary it's the goverment and elite that have already villified vaping from the start,we are guilty until proven innocent...which is fine,but they are not even willing to listen to reason.

So once the goverment "regulates" vaping will you feel safe?Do I seriuosly have to list the crimes and betrayls of the goverment against the citizens of the country to make you doubt their motives?Does any sane person with the IQ of eggplant trust the goverment?
You know as well as I do the intense research of every aspect of vaping the people in the community have spent researching and policing themselves...it is an unparellled phenomena in my life.

We were left alone for a longtime,because we were thought to be a passing fad.the lunatic fringe..they sat back and waited for us to go away.Instead a billion dollar a year industry was built in the garages and small shops and labs of individuals being funded and supported by other individuals...without the help of the goverment without corporations without big banks. In a time in history when we have the largest domestic survallince systemm the world has ever seen,when the goverment and the banks control virtually every aspect of our lives,when control over everything from our life in the womb to the disposal of our ashes is controlled by the state and oppression is lauded as not just "the smart thing to do",but is neccesarry for the very survival of the planet,and freedom has become synonimus with pornography and a crime against life itself..

The fact that the individuals in freedom and cooperation built such an industry from the ground up is frankly amazing.We have always been the first to police ourselves...we have been the ones who researched materials and ingredents we who studied the effects of high tempratures and gases,we who have held our products up to the light,we who have constntlly made a safer product,and demanded a safer product.....sure there are mindless twats who shove batteries into their pockets with their car keys and change ,sure there are idiots building .000000000032 coils and lighting them up with their car batteries,sure there are people vaping pond scum.and illegal herbs.....but as a wise man once said "you can't fix stupid" but I tust you,and your and the integrity and common sense and abilities of the people in the community a helluva alot more than the goverment's
Great points, but I honestly just don't see how it relates to the main point I'm getting at. Also, the whole government conspiracy thing has some basis, but the majority of it is pure speculation. Not to mention, this isn't making things regulated, or how safe I might feel. That is far from the entire point I originally made... and keep making. All I'm asking for is facts. If no one has any, then why all the speculation and bloated posts? I just don't get it.

Also, being a part of the beginning crowd, I remember we used to use quilt bedding for our wicks. Seriously, the dumbest shit anyone have thought of these days, but that was our go-to wick for the carts we used back then. The majority of the vapers back then (that I knew, or talked to) did have similar health questions that I did, and we did discuss them, but there was never this kind of backlash on such questions. We actually talked about it, shared some hard facts when possible (ie: studies that were relatively similar to our application, and so on), and we left it at that. We asked a question, and actually discussed it... not this "Well, it's safer because of these X number of reasons" speculations that are going on now. Sure, the deductions made back then were mostly speculation, but nobody seemed to actually have the mindset of saying "It's safer." We just let everyone make up their mind. God I miss those days.

A lot of smokers are still waiting for these studies before making the switch but many will be dead before they find out.
While this is most likely true, it doesn't really bother me. People who make risky health decisions, as it is, should be able to make another one and live with it. That's how I see it. You're already a smoker, and you know the risks. If you want to switch, but don't know the risks, and prefer to know the risks before jumping into it, just keep smoking. The only people who will hate you are the judgemental fan boy dicks lol.


Here's something I just don't get, that's coming back to me from a previous post... If the majority of vapers don't actually care about the other health risks involved with vaping, why is there such a dedicated mentality to defending the idea that vaping is so safe? Someone brought up double standards earlier... THAT is a double standard. If you don't care about the health aspect, then why bother lobbying for one side or the other? It's one thing to have facts, but to develop a strong opinion on something doesn't fit the ''I don't care'' mentality that's claimed here.
 

Rayne

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Fer real....we have a girl at work who blatantly told me she'd never smoke one of "those" (in reference to my vape).... "Too many chemicals!"
Yet she tells me this while choking on a Marlboro.....
So?
 

stevegmu

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What you seem to be looking for doesn't exist...
 

pulsevape

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Oh. I hear you Rayne...I mean I've sat in B&Ms and heard salesmen tell customers vaping is totally harmless, as if it's a fact...and I don't fool myself for a minute that what I'm doing is safe...the only thing that belongs in your lungs is air.we are taking a gamble,but the alternative is certain death...hopefully an educated gamble and I applaud your demand for more information...I just don't want more goverment.
But if you think the goverment is some wonderful big brother looking out for you ..or that is simpley a well meaning but ineffective enitity whose motives are well intentioned you either haven't lived on this planet long enough or paid attention.The goverment muders in the thousands,tens of thousand,hundreds of thousands,and do it for the children and the polar bears and the flag, and for hope and change....but mostly for control and money.The guys who started this country operated on the premise goverment was inherently bad...."those who are goverened least are goverened best"...Jefferson.

For those who trust the goverment fine...dandy peachy kino.....they have my blessing to OBEY, but please allow me the blessing to dissent...put your faith in the state ...I'll keep my rabbit's foot.
 
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Teresa P

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SO, in debating over who's idea of "safety" is right or wrong, it always boils down to the lesser of two (or more) evils.
Sometimes philosophical musings are better left in the heads of the tossing, turning insomniacs or toilet sitters who come up with them, not splattered on a public forum.


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Hey! it's just Ray...

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Fer real....we have a girl at work who blatantly told me she'd never smoke one of "those" (in reference to my vape).... "Too many chemicals!"
Yet she tells me this while choking on a Marlboro.....


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Yeah I have a friend that almost rolls his eyes when I talk about vaping as he smokes and coughs like I may never see him alive again.
 

M5amhan

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My favoring of having this stuff regulated isn't a political stance, nor any other stance; it's just a fact that regulation would make this kind of scientific testing immensely easier to conduct. FACT. Regulated juices, devices, materials... everything... would make this extremely easier to research, in order to develop a sane conclusion on actual relative safety. Everyone who wants to get butt hurt over that is welcome to; but ignoring that basic fact is asinine.
could you tell me which regulations specifically would make it easier to conduct scientific testing? ban sales to minors and flavors? new taxes that wont go towards science? million dollar fda applications to mix pg/vg/nic/flavor for resale? cant figure out which ones. also why is a lack of regulation holding back scientific evidence? we can just ignore the science that has already been presented for the sake of this question
 

cobalt327

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Take what you want from this:

I was encouraged by my Internist, Dr. Cristy Blanchford- a well-respected and well-read doctor in her field- to look into vaping as an alternative to smoking cigarettes. Her words to me were "It's a lesser evil to smoking". She advised me to continue to consider not smoking or vaping, but if I was not able to kick tobacco- but could vape and not smoke- that she would prefer vaping to smoking.
 

pulsevape

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well said M5...right now the FDA estimates it inspects about 1% of the food coming into the country....big f**king deal. regulations are away for the uber rich and the corporations to burden small industries with enough expense to drive them out of bussiness so that they don't have any serious competition...regulations are sold as "protection" but they are meant to protect the major corporations from challenge.
Exxon doesn't care if they have to install a filter on every pump and it cost a million dollars a filter...they just pass the expense on...they have unlimited access to capital from the banks....Ma and Pa kettle Oil company does not have unlimited access to capital they can't come up with the cash to put the filters on they go out of bussiness...amd Exoon buys up their company and it's assets for pennys on the dollar.
The pruposed regulations meant to protect us will be so oppresively expensive to implement they will drive the small modders and juice makers out of bussiness and phillip morris will be the only game in town. you will buy your gear and juice from a factory phillip morris moves off shore to China....you wanna see how safe it will be...look how many times a year tyson chicken farms have recalls for lousy meat....and yet some small organic grower never has to recall anything.
 

f1r3b1rd

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well said M5...right now the FDA estimates it inspects about 1% of the food coming into the country....big f**king deal. regulations are away for the uber rich and the corporations to burden small industries with enough expense to drive them out of bussiness so that they don't have any serious competition...regulations are sold as "protection" but they are meant to protect the major corporations from challenge.
Exxon doesn't care if they have to install a filter on every pump and it cost a million dollars a filter...they just pass the expense on...they have unlimited access to capital from the banks....Ma and Pa kettle Oil company does not have unlimited access to capital they can't come up with the cash to put the filters on they go out of bussiness...amd Exoon buys up their company and it's assets for pennys on the dollar.
The pruposed regulations meant to protect us will be so oppresively expensive to implement they will drive the small modders and juice makers out of bussiness and phillip morris will be the only game in town. you will buy your gear and juice from a factory phillip morris moves off shore to China....you wanna see how safe it will be...look how many times a year tyson chicken farms have recalls for lousy meat....and yet some small organic grower never has to recall anything.
that's what I want, the same idiots that don't catch ecoli at the happy burger making sure my vape is safe.
My favorite part of the industry are the tech advantages we've seen without some shill justifying their government check.
They better keep their hands off my mod
 

M5amhan

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exactly this guy wants to crucify vape shop employees for passing on opinion as fact, but then comes here and does the exact same thing concerning regulations. the difference is regulations are holding a gun to the head of everyone who doesnt fall in line, vape shop employees are just trying to get people off cigarettes
 

pulsevape

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vape shop employees are usually just trying to make a sale and it's amazing how little most of them know about vaping....buyer beware it's your job to educate yourself.I mean Christ people we have a chance to find a safe alternative to smoking let's put out just a little effort to save our own lives.
 

pulsevape

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Ask yourself Why...Why haven't we been shut down by now...why has the goverment allowed us to grow unfetterred...The reason is the corporations have allowed private entersprise to build a billion dollar a year industry,they have allowed a market to be developed,they have let the technology be developed.and it hasn't cost them a dime.....and now the calf has been fatted they will swoop in,and using regulations as a knife they will take over the industry and dominate the industry using their politicl connections to pass laws making it impossible for independent modders to exist....they will pat us on the head say thanks for the industry now f**k off.
 

Teresa P

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He appears to want decades of independent studies and research. Such a thing does not exist...
And it won't exist until it puts tax money in someone's hands other than our own. Smoking was touted as "safe" in the beginning. Anyone remember or see the vintage tv commercials showing the Flintstones happily huffing on Winstons? Then years down the road, the Marlboro man dies and lung cancer is spreading like wildfire and suddenly smoking is BAD. Were cigarettes banned? No. Did the taxes on tobacco products continue to rise? Yes. Are taxes still rising on tobacco products? You betcha. Still not banned, because the government is not only raking in big bucks on tobacco, but they're also padding their bank accounts with revenue from Big Pharma from the innocent addicts who now want to quit, but need help. They've gotcha coming and going (in some cases, quite literally). If vaping is declared "safe," the tax dollars roll in. If it's declared "bad," we're still gonna pay out the nose. No study in the world will lessen the greed of its instigator.
This is a forum created by and for people who have found what works for them as a safer option to tobacco. Most of us don't care what "studies" reveal because we've revealed for ourselves an option that frees us from tobacco and makes us feel better. Period. No government/medical study can take back the evidence that we feel in our own bodies. Go down the "Vaping: Health Related" thread and read a few testimonies from forum members who have medical proof that vaping has changed their lives and health for the better. Then tell me that biased "studies" are going to matter.
 

f1r3b1rd

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As far as the shops just looking for a Sale.... Well keyword there is "shops"
As in a building that sells things..

Granted, just like any business free to operate, those that people find useful will be more successful as they will be more likely to garner return business. Like anything else in life; when you're a grown up, and you are spending your own money its your own responsibility to make sure you are buying the right thing. Not 'harold' whose taking your money in exchange for his mod.

Not sure on anyone else. But when I bought my first we had one shop with 3 clerks, if you got help or advice you were damn lucky, it came down to using that www machine
 

cobalt327

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It's cute that you assume I'm wearing undies.
Now, THAT is funny!!

Anyway, once enough time has passed I feel confident studies will show a dramatic decrease in smoking related deaths and disease among the vaping population versus tobacco users. I wish I were a fly on the wall- or better yet 40 years younger- so I could witness how this will all play out. Not just health, but taxation (which is a given IMO), and technological advances and a lot more that today isn't even on the radar. Most of all I just wish vaping would have been a viable alternative when I started smoking cigarettes 40-plus years ago.
 

Giraut

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[...]juice making doesn't need be more sanitary than a restaurant

Er... yes, yes it does. There's a difference between sticking something in your digestive system and in your lungs. The former processes what you put in it, and provides many defense mechanisms against bad things you might be ingesting, while the latter is essentially a naked, defenseless and direct path to your bloodstream.

I would very much prefer it if people who sell juice had to be under more scrutiny than mere cooks...
 

Mroutlaw

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As someone who's been vaping since 2011 and used to smoke up to 2 packs a day, I can tell you I feel better. I used to get up every night coughing and if I got a cold it took weeks for my chest to clear up. I don't have that anymore.

With that said, I don't necessarily think vaping is safe. Healthier than cigs, probably, but not completely safe. It's not the vg and pg that I worry about. In fact it's not even the nic.. Pg and vg are in many products we inhale and have been deemed by fda as safe, asthma inhales for one and nicotine is nothing more than a stimulant like caffeine. What concerns me are the flavorings. These food flavoring were designed and approved for eating, not inhaling. We don't know what they do to our lungs.

The real problem I have with vaping is the high wattage, sub ohm stuff going on. Too many people are interested in giant clouds and entering cloud competitions. These competitions are going to lead to problems. It has encouraged people to build bigger, more powerful mods and use lower and lower sub ohm coils. There's a safety issue here and mark my words, we're going to see more and more battery explosions as this continues. That's going to bring more attention to vaping and not the good kind. All that publicity is going to encourage more regulation.

To top it off, these competitions and the culture in general are attracting non smokers and I'm seeing more and more non smokers pick up vaping for the "culture", to look cool or because it tastes good. This too is bringing more regulation.

When I started vaping, 5-6 watts was more than enough to get u off cigs and 8-12 watts was insane. If you vaped more than 2-3 ml a day, you were considered a chain vaper and for all you who think that's not much, back then, devices didn't go through that much juice. Heck, 6mg cig-a-likes got me off tobacco cigarettes and I only used 1-2 cartos a day. Now people are vaping 15-30ml a day like its nothing and they're doing it as such extreme temperatures that the vg and pg are putting off carbonals like formaldehyde.

We need to stop that nonsense. IMHO there is no reason to be vaping 60, 70 or 100 watts, let alone 150watts. And please, don't encourage or endorse non smokers to vape. I believe it's safer than cigarettes, but it's safer to not vape at all. And please don't say it's ok if you are using 0 nic because it not. Nicotine is nothing more that a stimulant like caffeine, the problem is the flavorings.

That concludes my rant, let the bashing begin


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f1r3b1rd

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While I do find a shirtless hairy man mixing juice concerning, juice making doesn't need be more sanitary than a restaurant
Ummmm.... I spent 23 years as a chef; most of that time on some swanky places. I assure you, you do want your juice mixing done in more sanitary conditions. MUCH MORE SANITARY.
I've seen rabbit,butchered on the same board as chicken.
Chicken stored in a walk in above beef.
And a slew of other issues.

Maybe rent the movie "waiting." What goes on in that kitchen, while funny as hell, does actually happen. (do people still rent movies?)
Then ask yourself if you want "the goat" done just before someone mixes some juice.
 
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Rayne

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You guys really take the cake at either being dicks, or forcing me to take the piss out of this situation. This is fucking funny to me... I hope you guys get that.

Whatever. If all the "serious" talkers on here want me to basically make a political speech, lay out a ten step program for regulations, and find a way to overcome the government conspiracy (that I barely even believe to begin with), you're asking the wrong guy. I ask questions and make valid points; and in return, I get people talking shit like I'm trying to fix everything. I guess I've settled on laughing while crying. Yeah, that's a good middle ground for me.

This kind of response is pathetic at best. Fuck this thread. I won't even continue reading anything here. This has been entirely derailed, and the majority of the responses are from hotheads who took everything way too personally. This is no longer a discussion. Even I've stooped low in previous posts... this is just antics at this point, trying to win over a crowd with your buddies. I thought I left grade school years ago?

I knew this would happen... I just thought maybe I was wrong. I should have listened to myself.
 

cobalt327

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Consider getting over yourself. If you "knew" this would happen then why act so butthurt??

While I wholeheartedly believe vaping is overall better, health-wise, than smoking tobacco, vaping nic is more of a health issue than some may realize. Nic interferes with the normal movement of the tiny hair-like cilia found in our respiratory tracts. That's why vapers that use nic still hock up phlegm. It's at least clear, but there's still negative effects from the cilia not doing their job.
 

f1r3b1rd

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I knew this would happen... I just thought maybe I was wrong. I should have listened to myself.

Maybe so?

Not sure where you thought a group of veteran vapors would jump at the chance to hand over regulatory compliance to a government that most(especially myself) trust less than a pack of hungry lions.

Its not like the feds have the best track record at taxation and regulation. The same group that started a war over a tax on a breakfast beverage, became what they despised.
 

Mroutlaw

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Maybe so?

Not sure where you thought a group of veteran vapors would jump at the chance to hand over regulatory compliance to a government that most(especially myself) trust less than a pack of hungry lions.

Its not like the feds have the best track record at taxation and regulation. The same group that started a war over a tax on a breakfast beverage, became what they despised.
I completely agree. And let's face it, all this regulation has nothing to do about health concerns, safety or anything like that. It's all about money and the fact that big tobacco lobbies are pushing for it because vaping is hurting big tobacco. That's why they're getting into ecigs, so that when regulations come down on who can make and sell ejuice, they're in place. One the regulations close down every Tom, dick and Harry making ejuice, the tobacco companies will be sitting pretty.

If it's not only about big tobacco lobbies and money, then why is all the legislation being proposed, simply taxes aimed and making vaping cost more than smoking. Many people got into vaping to stop smelling, stop inhaling tar and other chemicals, but many people also switched because it's cheaper. Statistically, lower income people are the smokers, so if a 30ml bottle of ejuice costs $60, people will switch back to smoking.

That's why we need to not draw attention to ourselves with cloud comps and stuff to give them more ammunition


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Mroutlaw

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As far as the shops just looking for a Sale.... Well keyword there is "shops"
As in a building that sells things..

Granted, just like any business free to operate, those that people find useful will be more successful as they will be more likely to garner return business. Like anything else in life; when you're a grown up, and you are spending your own money its your own responsibility to make sure you are buying the right thing. Not 'harold' whose taking your money in exchange for his mod.

Not sure on anyone else. But when I bought my first we had one shop with 3 clerks, if you got help or advice you were damn lucky, it came down to using that www machine
When I started, there were not b&m within 200 miles. Had to read forums and shop online. Bought a disposable blu at 7-11 to see if I could do, then ordered a starter pack. Quickly returned it because I found out they were the worst cig-a-like out there

When a shop finally opened 35 miles away, the prices were more than double of online stores. I remember one place selling an ego for $50 and they were only $15 online.

I know that many many vape shop employees don't have the knowledge that some of us have, but at least they know something, which is more than I had. And since there's so many. B&m prices are similar to online prices. That means people can try and buy rather than buy online and hope it tastes good, or even works




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Smoky Blue

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You guys really take the cake at either being dicks, or forcing me to take the piss out of this situation. This is fucking funny to me... I hope you guys get that.
.


Rayne.. you should really take a bigger look and think on what you are typing. For real! Instead of yelling for regulations.. why not advocate for testing and research? HUH?? <<I would love to see a response from you on this. period. You say: "This is fucking funny to me... I hope you guys get that.".
By coming up in here, with your first thread.. and the responses you are getting.. it's "fucking funny"? my my..

Second.. this is a very tame thread. No one is jumping YOU.. but for the fact, every single post you keep making, leans to regulations.. and to most, including me, regulations means someone to stand over us, to limit us, to tax us, and to prohibit.. to tell us all what to do and how. What would be "allowed" and what wouldn't be. You want to live like that? I don't.

Whatever. If all the "serious" talkers on here want me to basically make a political speech, lay out a ten step program for regulations, and find a way to overcome the government conspiracy (that I barely even believe to begin with), you're asking the wrong guy. I ask questions and make valid points; and in return, I get people talking shit like I'm trying to fix everything. I guess I've settled on laughing while crying. Yeah, that's a good middle ground for me.

I havent seen anyone "talk shit" to or about you.... yet.. however.. my turn to say something, again.

I want better for us all, and watching from the side lines and helping in any way I can, towards better understanding.. will help more in the long run. As it is.. the states themselves are seeing what kind of money floats in this ""INDUSTRY"".. and to me, that is the wrong wording.. but it is what it is too.. If you have ever seen my friends from CASAA, SFATA TVM AVA and even AESMA speak.. you might learn a bit from them. Otherwise most here will take it, you work for the government depend on that government paycheck, and want to see this as prohibited. Why, why do you want regs to come down, have you lost someone to vaping, has vaping hurt you in any way? <answer this too.

but no one here yet has said anything cross to you, or jumped on you.. for if they did, you'd really know it and wouldn't behave like you are right now with the self righteous crap of

I knew this would happen... I just thought maybe I was wrong. I should have listened to myself.

or maybe you should go buddy up to the FDA CDC and any other abc organization that will help you in your quest to kill off vaping as we all know it. You might fit in there right well.

will wait on your response.. Are you brave enough to explain yourself and your thoughts?
 

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