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Why do people prefer Sony VTC4 instead of VTC5 or VTC6?

pricelessvapor

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I am looking for the hardest hitting 18650 (highest amp output) for my mech mods.

I was told to get the Sony VTC4 or VTC4a (I think it's called). But the VTC5 and VTC6 have higher mAh. Which should I buy?

I have a pink LG HB6 and the first Couple hits are good but after that it feels like it loses half its power.

I was thinking of purchasing them from 3Fvape. I know that are from china so would they probably not be Genuine? If so any recommendation of where to buy them?? Thanks
 

IMFire3605

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I am looking for the hardest hitting 18650 (highest amp output) for my mech mods.

I was told to get the Sony VTC4 or VTC4a (I think it's called). But the VTC5 and VTC6 have higher mAh. Which should I buy?

I have a pink LG HB6 and the first Couple hits are good but after that it feels like it loses half its power.

I was thinking of purchasing them from 3Fvape. I know that are from china so would they probably not be Genuine? If so any recommendation of where to buy them?? Thanks

For a mech, the HB2, HB4, HB6 are the highest suggested on my list for people due to their 30amp CDR output, but they have low mah, and if you are "Extremely" low in your build they will not last long on a charge, though they can do as low as 0.14ohms (30amps CDR), 0.25 to 0.28 is actually the sweet spot on a single battery mech if you are using it as an all day vape. Competition cloud blowing, then lower and other formulas come into effect. Better batteries that are a balance of both CDR and mah, again you get 3, the LG HD2 and HD4, with the Sony "VTC5A" there is not VTC4A, these are all 25amp CDR, with optimal Ohms being about 0.3 to 0.35ish, at lowest about 0.2ish Ohms. You don't want to run batteries at full redline all the time in a mech, just like a Ferrari doing 200MPH daily back and forth to and from work you are going to tear the engine up in a very short time, same principle with a battery, building for only 50% its CDR is best and safest. LG HB6 as example, 0.14 as a daily runner constant chain vaping, you'll need at least 4 batteries to rotate through out the day, down side, you'll burn those batteries down to 15amp CDR max ability is a very short month to 2 month period, trust me I was in that stage of super-super low sub-ohm for about a year, and it is very expensive to maintain that level. With the VTC5A at 2500mah and 25CDR, at the moment it is the best battery on the market for balance of mah and CDR for daily running mech use, has a very decent pulse for short hits every 20 to 30seconds at 1 to 2 second pulls only, and sustains its voltage longer than most in its CDR category.

The VTC4 was the long standing King of the realm the VTC5A has taken over, it is a 20 to 23amp CDR battery able to be flexed and pushed toward 28amp CDR, and has 2100mah to last a while, for your level of vaping it sounds like, the VTC5 standard and the VTC6 will not suit your needs, they don't have the necessary CDR (20amps VTC5, 19amps VTC6), but another alternative to the VTC4 is the Samsung 25R (rated 20amp CDR at 2500mah, capable of holding 25amp CDR in short pulses) placing both the VTC4 and 25R in a unique category as very safe batteries that can be nudged above their ratings, though at the sacrifice of decreasing their life cycles.

On a mech it doesn't matter how low or how high in ohms you build, batteries give what they have available, so if you build for a 30amp CDR hit continually, after 2 to 3 hits its downhill from there as 4.2v does not last long, best to build for the voltage platue (nominal voltage) of the battery in a mech, that platue is at 3.7 to 3.9v where the battery stays its charge the longest, the initial hits from fresh charge are strong, but once you hit 3.9v it mellows down and gradually slides downhill toward 3.7v (what the battery nominal voltage is actually rated at), after about 3.6 to 3.7 it is a rapid dive. On a 1500mah battery max vape time should be about 30 to 45minutes constant chain vaping, 2000mah about 45minutes to an hour, 2500mah about 1hour to 1hour 15minutes.

If you are wanting a constant output, move to regulated mod or a dual battery parallel mech box mod, that or you yourself learn to adjust to what your equipment is capable of.
 

SirRichardRear

AKA Anthony Vapes on Youtube
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I am looking for the hardest hitting 18650 (highest amp output) for my mech mods.

I was told to get the Sony VTC4 or VTC4a (I think it's called). But the VTC5 and VTC6 have higher mAh. Which should I buy?

I have a pink LG HB6 and the first Couple hits are good but after that it feels like it loses half its power.

I was thinking of purchasing them from 3Fvape. I know that are from china so would they probably not be Genuine? If so any recommendation of where to buy them?? Thanks
quick version is just lack of them keeping up on things. VCT4 is a great battery but now with the VCT5a it's probably the best overall battery for mechs. 25 amps plus 2600mah make it a great hard hitting battery with good life. the HB6 are good for hard hits but die out quickly. VCT5a is the way to go for you just make sure you build accordingly.

as far as sites
illumn.com
liionwholesale.com
imrbatteries.com
 

brandon555

Member For 3 Years
I like vtc4's because they're cheap, and they work great on low ohm builds with my 1x18650 mods. HB6's are pretty weak in that configuration, vtc4's hit much harder on a .10ohm build. I like them on series mods though like the cricket. They hit plenty hard with a .45ohm build in series.
 

SirRichardRear

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I like vtc4's because they're cheap, and they work great on low ohm builds with my 1x18650 mods
I see them as 2 dollars cheaper (6 bucks compared to 8 bucks) then a VTC5a which can take 2 more amps and has 25% more run time and a dollar more then the sayno NSX which is 1 amp lower rating but 20% more battery life the LG HD2 has a 2 amp higher rating but about 5% less battery life but is a dollar cheaper.

Personally I'm not a fan of Cheaping out on batteries but they are pretty dam cheap to begin with. I don't see why anyone would buy anything but the top of each class
20 amp = samsung 30q
25 amp = Sony VTC5a
30 amp = LG HB6

of course availability matters. sometimes one might be sold out like a 30q so I'll get a Sony VTC6 or a Lg HG2
 

Jon@LiionWholesale

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As someone else said, I think it's just out of date information. The VTC4 is part of Sony's last generation of batteries. Honestly the VTC5A is better in every way other than being a little more expensive. Before the VTC5A came out, the VTC4 was the hardest hitting power cell Sony had. Nowadays I could see people getting it because it's tried and true and they like sticking with what they know, or if they're on a very strict budget, but otherwise the VTC5A is better.
 

BoomStick

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I have a 3 year old vtc4 that still hits harder in my mech than 1 year old 25r's and all see regular use. I keep using it to see how far it'll go and it keeps going. Better than my newer stuff. Vtc-anything else can't say that. Capacity is nice, but for certain gear...
 

nightshard

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Competing for the 25A spot besides the VTC5A, there are also LG HD2/2C/4

If 20A is sufficient then VTC6 is a better then the VTC4 and for higher amps VTC5A is better then he VTC4.
 

NickyGiaccone

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LG HB4s are good for dual 18650 VW box mods at high power and last a tiny bit longer than HB6s which have a reported 32amps according to mooch so that 2 amps is sometimes handy. VTC5As are the 2,600mAH 25 amp new kings of overall general subohm vaping. I don't know why people use VTC4s or VTC6s either. 3,000mAH isnt much less than 2,600,mAH. And that 25 amps VTC5As pack are good for future potential high wattahe high resistance opportunities. Everybody likes theyre own thing. If I were Sony, there'd be VTC5A's and VTC6s but LG needs to do Away with HB2s which mooch sats are 23amps or 22 amps with the same 1,500mAH approximate rating. LG HB4s are a bit more practical.
 

SirRichardRear

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LG HB4s are good for dual 18650 VW box mods at high power and last a tiny bit longer than HB6s which have a reported 32amps according to mooch so that 2 amps is sometimes handy. VTC5As are the 2,600mAH 25 amp new kings of overall general subohm vaping. I don't know why people use VTC4s or VTC6s either. 3,000mAH isnt much less than 2,600,mAH. And that 25 amps VTC5As pack are good for future potential high wattahe high resistance opportunities. Everybody likes theyre own thing. If I were Sony, there'd be VTC5A's and VTC6s but LG needs to do Away with HB2s which mooch sats are 23amps or 22 amps with the same 1,500mAH approximate rating. LG HB4s are a bit more practical.
they really don't make the HB2 or HB4 anymore. it's mostly just the HB6 which is a newer version. also the HB2 and HB4 were 30 amp batts as well
 

NickyGiaccone

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No lg lied hb2s are22 amps, Mooch's blog tells you. They make lg hb2 hv4 and hb6s. Mayb e not selling them at a local shop. All battery sites sell them
 

SirRichardRear

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No lg lied hb2s are22 amps, Mooch's blog tells you. They make lg hb2 hv4 and hb6s. Mayb e not selling them at a local shop. All battery sites sell them
Google moochs battery blog. Theyre all different and esp hb2s
dude. not trying to be rude here but you've literally made like 10 incorrect posts in a row. can you please listen to stuff i've been saying?
image-jpeg.600623

right form moochs blog. his latest and greatest. where do you think i was getting the info from? he's the only source for battery ratings for vaping.
as you can clearly see they are 30 amp batts the HB2 and HB4
 

IMFire3605

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-_-

Another inaccuracy, the VTC5A is not a 2600mah battery, it is 2500mah
VTC5 -> 2600mah 20amp CDR
VTC5A -> 2500mah 25amp CDR

Please update the rolodex you are using with these two batteries.
 

SirRichardRear

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-_-

Another inaccuracy, the VTC5A is not a 2600mah battery, it is 2500mah
VTC5 -> 2600mah 20amp CDR
VTC5A -> 2500mah 25amp CDR

Please update the rolodex you are using with these two batteries.
good catch!
 

BoomStick

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Vtc5's will handle 30 amps all day long as long as you don't run them below 3 volts. Mooch's testing doesn't align with our usage.
 

SirRichardRear

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Vtc5's will handle 30 amps all day long as long as you don't run them below 3 volts. Mooch's testing doesn't align with our usage.
depends what you mean by align?
they may handle that w/o venting but doesn't mean they aren't getting damaged or heating up beyond safe limits.
also I'm curious about the 3 volts. are you talking regulated or unregulated? a weak battery in a regulated mod draws less amps with the same build then a fully charged one. the opposite is true for regulated mods. the weaker the batts the more the amp draw
 

BoomStick

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Vtc5's don't overheat at 30 amps until they fall below 3 volts. Regulated mods shut off before then. And obviously the current falls off in an unregulated mod as the batts discharge. He uses a cutoff voltage for his testing that is too low for our purposes so his ratings aren't accurate for our purposes.
 

SirRichardRear

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Vtc5's don't overheat at 30 amps until they fall below 3 volts. Regulated mods shut off before then. And obviously the current falls off in an unregulated mod as the batts discharge. He uses a cutoff voltage for his testing that is too low for our purposes so his ratings aren't accurate for our purposes.
96c at 25 amps. Way too high. 82c at 20 amps

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 

BoomStick

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They reach max temp at lowest voltage. Running them down to 2.5 volts is fine for determining generic specs when application is unknown. Since he's doing these tests for the vaping community, his testing parameters are flawed. For our purposes a vtc5 is a 30amp cell.
 

SirRichardRear

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They reach max temp at lowest voltage. Running them down to 2.5 volts is fine for determining generic specs when application is unknown. Since he's doing these tests for the vaping community, his testing parameters are flawed. For our purposes a vtc5 is a 30amp cell.
maybe @Mooch would like to come here and clarify?
 

r055co

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They reach max temp at lowest voltage. Running them down to 2.5 volts is fine for determining generic specs when application is unknown. Since he's doing these tests for the vaping community, his testing parameters are flawed. For our purposes a vtc5 is a 30amp cell.
Mooch rate's the VTC5's as 20a CDR
https://www.facebook.com/1636157550...828.1636157550007158/1694725987483647/?type=3

In his interview with The Vaping Biker he states below 2.5v damages the battery and 3.0v is the threshold that you shouldn't go below.

Sorry BoomStick but I'll follow Mooch's recommendations as the expert since he's been doing this for years professionally long before Vaping ;)
 

Jon@LiionWholesale

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They reach max temp at lowest voltage. Running them down to 2.5 volts is fine for determining generic specs when application is unknown. Since he's doing these tests for the vaping community, his testing parameters are flawed. For our purposes a vtc5 is a 30amp cell.

Interesting. This does make sense. Mooch just measures the temperature at the end.

I still think you'd be close though at 30A even just going to 3.0V, you'd probably be right around that 80-85 C. We don't carry the regular VTC5 anymore, and back when we had them we could only run our equipment at 28A max (unlike now when we can run 120A) so I don't have 30A tests. So I can't run a test now but it looks like from 3V to 2.5V on the VTC5 you have about 10-20% more temperature gain on the tests we've run. Even if the test stopped at 3V you'd still continue to gain a little more temperature, definitely would be a close call.

Also, of course other batteries' ratings would also increase if you put that 3V limitation on them so Mooch's ratings are a good way to compare batteries apples to apples.
 

SirRichardRear

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Interesting. This does make sense. Mooch just measures the temperature at the end.

I still think you'd be close though at 30A even just going to 3.0V, you'd probably be right around that 80-85 C. We don't carry the regular VTC5 anymore, and back when we had them we could only run our equipment at 28A max (unlike now when we can run 120A) so I don't have 30A tests. So I can't run a test now but it looks like from 3V to 2.5V on the VTC5 you have about 10-20% more temperature gain on the tests we've run. Even if the test stopped at 3V you'd still continue to gain a little more temperature, definitely would be a close call.

Also, of course other batteries' ratings would also increase if you put that 3V limitation on them so Mooch's ratings are a good way to compare batteries apples to apples.
good info for sure so thanks!
personally with all the shit I've seen (not just vaping news but in my profession career) I'm more on the better safe then sorry side. I'd rather use moochs rating and leave some headroom then to push the batteries right to the edge and boom. I do push them when running my mod tests but thats in a controlled situation where i'm monitoring the battery temps, only use fully charged batts and only using HB6 batts
realistically speaking you can get away with more then we recommend i pushed HE4 batts (20 amp batts) to 24 amps and had to pull them due to heating up. but it was again in a controlled environment not vaping next to my face, i wouldn't do it in normal vaping. I believe people should have a healthy fear of batts and electricity. that's the reason I'll only use HB6 batts for my testing. they take a beating. but now with 3 and 4 batt mods I'm going to be using VTC5a batts for testing since that's what i ordered. I just got 6 in the mail from you guys last week ;)
 

SirRichardRear

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Here is another way to put it we all can relate to
everyone here has used a ladder probably. on the top it says "this is not a step" but how many of us have used it as a step? I have, to get on my roof all the time. so yeah while it can be done without falling (haven't fell yet) still doesn't make it a good idea because if you do fall, it's over you ignoring the manufacturers warning.
 

BoomStick

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The data shows they don't overheat until below 3v. Your regulated mod won't run them below 3.2v and a mech pulling 30a when batts are full wont maintain the current as they drain. These aren't opinions. His testing subjects batteries to conditions that don't exist when we use them. Consider or ignore these facts. I don't care. I think his ratings are a great guideline to follow, but I also think the vets among us deserve to understand his testing and resulting recommendations a little better than the noob that we just tell to follow mooch's numbers.
 

Jon@LiionWholesale

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The data shows they don't overheat until below 3v. Your regulated mod won't run them below 3.2v and a mech pulling 30a when batts are full wont maintain the current as they drain. These aren't opinions. His testing subjects batteries to conditions that don't exist when we use them. Consider or ignore these facts. I don't care. I think his ratings are a great guideline to follow, but I also think the vets among us deserve to understand his testing and resulting recommendations a little better than the noob that we just tell to follow mooch's numbers.

Do you have test results where they stopped discharging at 3V with real time temperature readings where they continued to read temperature for a minute or so after the test completed? I don't doubt it I'm just curious to see.
 

SirRichardRear

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The data shows they don't overheat until below 3v. Your regulated mod won't run them below 3.2v and a mech pulling 30a when batts are full wont maintain the current as they drain. These aren't opinions. His testing subjects batteries to conditions that don't exist when we use them. Consider or ignore these facts. I don't care. I think his ratings are a great guideline to follow, but I also think the vets among us deserve to understand his testing and resulting recommendations a little better than the noob that we just tell to follow mooch's numbers.
there is nothing wrong with understanding his procedures. we all know his numbers are "safe guidelines" and not the exact moment the battery fails and vents.
a few things of notes, DNA mods default cell cutoff at 2.5 volts not 3 volts. I personally change mine to 3 volts. now pushing the 167 watt limit on the DNA 250 board and the batteries down to 2.5 would be pulling 33.4 amps from those batts well over the limit and in moochs testing of over 100c battery temp so there are situations where you could fire below 3.
We also rarely know the battery cut off voltage from most mods, it's not something they list pubicly
 

Mooch

Member For 4 Years
They reach max temp at lowest voltage. Running them down to 2.5 volts is fine for determining generic specs when application is unknown. Since he's doing these tests for the vaping community, his testing parameters are flawed. For our purposes a vtc5 is a 30amp cell.

Thanks for your feedback! I feel my test results are directly applicable to vaping.

Every single vaper, new or experienced, uses the continuous discharge rating (CDR) when initially determining if a battery is worth a closer look or purchase. All of us. It's the only way we can compare one battery to another as "pulse" ratings are useless without knowing a lot of info about the pulses, the criteria used to set the rating, etc. The CDR is a standard method of comparing batteries for a good reason, it's done fairly consistently across the big manufacturers.

Determining the CDR is also critical for determining which cell might be the one being rewrapped by the various companies doing that.

The CDR is also a very handy number to have when recommending limits for new vapers.

Lastly, extending the continuous current testing beyond the CDR allows me to determine when a battery might become dangerously hot if there is a mod malfunction or accidental button press (my Maximum Vaping Amps, MVA, rating). This is an important limit for a lot of vapers taking their first step into higher power vaping or unregulated/mechanical mod use.

I measure the temperature of the battery during discharge because it's the only way you can set the CDR (as temperature is the primary determinant of cycle life) and to set safety limits. A rating set without knowing the temperature is useless.

Any vaper is free to vape at current levels higher than the MVA rating, of course. They're not set as a limit for safety or performance. They're set as a way to directly compare one battery against another to determine which might be the best for the way we vape. Some vapers can, of course, use them as safety limits if desired.

We don't need to exactly duplicate the way each vaper uses batteries in order to pick the right one. The relative performance of these batteries changes very little if you compare them when running continuously or when pulsed. Which makes sense. Any discharge over a few milliseconds long is "seen" by the battery as just being a continuous discharge of a different length, whether 3 seconds or 33 minutes.

IMHO, the testing parameters I set for determining the continuous current rating, modeled after those used by Samsung, Sony, LG, and Panasonic/Sanyo, are well chosen for determining the continuous current rating of a battery. What parameters do you feel should be changed?

Or do you mean my feelings that vapers would find the numbers useful is flawed?

To help those who wish to go beyond the CDR and/or MVA rating I do pulse discharges for almost every battery. These go up to 70A if the battery can handle it without dropping below 2.5V immediately. Up to 80A for incredible performers like the A123 26650. This is about a 0.04 ohm total resistance, from the battery out to the coil and back again, simulating a 0.02 ohm or lower coil resistance once contact/mod/atty/connection resistances are taken into account. This would seem to cover just about any vaper out there.

These pulse discharges can be used to directly compare run time, voltage under load (i.e., how hard it hits), and maximum temperatures. None of the tests have to match the way any particular vaper uses them. The tests only have to make it easy to determine which is the best performer at certain discharge current levels.

Why down to 2.5V? It allows for easy comparison between batteries at higher voltages and it helps to show that batteries sag much, much more than people think. Cutting off the discharges at 3.2V or 3.5V (or wherever) wouldn't add any new data and would keep us seeing the true sag in unregulated/mech mods.

You can certainly just set your own cutoff voltage and see how each battery performs down to that point in the graphs.

Why only measure max temperature? I could certainly post plots of the temperatures of each cell during each discharge but most vapers don't need to know the temperature at a certain point, just which battery runs cooler/hotter, i.e., their relative performance. It's already quite confusing for many vapers just to understand the voltages shown in the pulse plots. Having them also have to read the temperature graphs would cause a lot more confusion.

I use constant-current pulses because that discharge method is in between the two methods we use to discharge batteries when vaping; constant-resistance and constant-power.

Constant-resistance discharging simulates what happens when we use an unregulated/mech mod. As the battery voltage drops the current through the (relatively) fixed-resistance coil also drops. This is the discharge method that is easiest on the battery.

Constant-power discharging, used by regulated mods, increases the current through the battery as the voltage drops in order to keep the power being delivered steady. This is the discharge method hardest on the battery.

Constant-current discharging is the standard used for battery testing as it's easiest to specify and duplicate. I use it because it's in between the two methods we use when discharging a battery when vaping. Holding the current steady is tougher on the battery than what's done when using a mech but easier on the battery than when we use a regulated mod.

Doing both constant-resistance and constant-power discharge tests, at any discharge level or down to any voltage, wouldn't provide any better data. It would just take much, much longer to do the tests. The relative performance of the batteries wouldn't change.

You say the VTC5 is a 30A cell for our purposes. That's fair. I would probably say 35A due to its decent internal resistance keeping the temperatures and voltage sag average for a high performance 18650.

But those are statements of capability, not battery ratings. Ratings are set to help us choose batteries based on consistent, standardized testing that determine cycle life, safety limits, and (for my pulse tests) actual voltages-under-load. This is what my testing is for.

A battery's capabilities will change for each vaper and their vaping style. We can make some conservative statements that cover most vapers, i.e., VTC5's are a 30A cell, but my testing provides a known, consistent way to narrow down your choice of battery. The pulse discharge testing can help you narrow down your choices even more.

Some only need a general statement of capabilities to determine what battery to buy. Others might want to know that the VTC5A hits harder than the HB6 even though the HB6 has a higher current rating. Or what the safety limits might be in case of a mod malfunction or accidental button press. You can't determine that from capabilities statements, it takes the specific tests that I do.

My test results are there for those who either want to set some conservative safety limits or for those who want to know which battery will actually give them the best performance, i.e., which will give them the highest voltage, longest running time, and/or lowest temperature during use.

I am genuinely interested in hearing what testing parameters you would use, ones you feel would not be flawed. I'm always open to improving my testing.
 
Last edited:

Mooch

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I think his ratings are a great guideline to follow, but I also think the vets among us deserve to understand his testing and resulting recommendations a little better than the noob that we just tell to follow mooch's numbers.

I'd be happy to explain any aspect of my testing and recommendations. All anyone has to do is ask me. Nothing is kept a secret. :)
 

SirRichardRear

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Thanks for your feedback! I feel my test results are directly applicable to vaping.

Every single vaper, new or experienced, uses the continuous discharge rating (CDR) when initially determining if a battery is worth a closer look or purchase. All of us. It's the only way we can compare one battery to another as "pulse" ratings are useless without knowing a lot of info about the pulses, the criteria used to set the rating, etc. The CDR is a standard method of comparing batteries for a good reason, it's done fairly consistently across the big manufacturers.

Determining the CDR is also critical for determining which cell might be the one being rewrapped by the various companies doing that.

The CDR is also a very handy number to have when recommending limits for new vapers.

Lastly, extending the continuous current testing beyond the CDR allows me to determine when a battery might become dangerously hot if there is a mod malfunction or accidental button press (my Maximum Vaping Amps, MVA, rating). This is an important limit for a lot of vapers taking their first step into higher power vaping or unregulated/mechanical mod use.

I measure the temperature of the battery during discharge because it's the only way you can set the CDR (as temperature is the primary determinant of cycle life) and to set safety limits. A rating set without knowing the temperature is useless.

Any vaper is free to vape at current levels higher than the MVA rating, of course. They're not set as a limit for safety or performance. They're set as a way to directly compare one battery against another to determine which might be the best for the way we vape. Some vapers can, of course, use them as safety limits if desired.

We don't need to exactly duplicate the way each vaper uses batteries in order to pick the right one. The relative performance of these batteries changes very little if you compare them when running continuously or when pulsed. Which makes sense. Any discharge over a few milliseconds long is "seen" by the battery as just being a continuous discharge of a different length, whether 3 seconds or 33 minutes.

IMHO, the testing parameters I set for determining the continuous current rating, modeled after those used by Samsung, Sony, LG, and Panasonic/Sanyo, are well chosen for determining the continuous current rating of a battery. What parameters do you feel should be changed?

Or do you mean my feelings that vapers would find the numbers useful is flawed?

To help those who wish to go beyond the CDR and/or MVA rating I do pulse discharges for almost every battery. These go up to 70A if the battery can handle it without dropping below 2.5V immediately. Up to 80A for incredible performers like the A123 26650. This is about a 0.04 ohm total resistance, from the battery out to the coil and back again, simulating a 0.02 ohm or lower coil resistance once contact/mod/atty/connection resistances are taken into account. This would seem to cover just about any vaper out there.

These pulse discharges can be used to directly compare run time, voltage under load (i.e., how hard it hits), and maximum temperatures. None of the tests have to match the way any particular vaper uses them. The tests only have to make it easy to determine which is the best performer at certain discharge current levels.

Why down to 2.5V? It allows for easy comparison between batteries at higher voltages and it helps to show that batteries sag much, much more than people think. Cutting off the discharges at 3.2V or 3.5V (or wherever) wouldn't add any new data and would keep us seeing the true sag in unregulated/mech mods.

You can certainly just set your own cutoff voltage and see how each battery performs down to that point in the graphs.

Why only measure max temperature? I could certainly post plots of the temperatures of each cell during each discharge but most vapers don't need to know the temperature at a certain point, just which battery runs cooler/hotter, i.e., their relative performance. It's already quite confusing for many vapers just to understand the voltages shown in the pulse plots. Having them also have to read the temperature graphs would cause a lot more confusion.

I use constant-current pulses because that discharge method is in between the two methods we use to discharge batteries when vaping; constant-resistance and constant-power.

Constant-resistance discharging simulates what happens when we use an unregulated/mech mod. As the battery voltage drops the current through the (relatively) fixed-resistance coil also drops. This is the discharge method that is easiest on the battery.

Constant-power discharging, used by regulated mods, increases the current through the battery as the voltage drops in order to keep the power being delivered steady. This is the discharge method hardest on the battery.

Constant-current discharging is the standard used for battery testing as it's easiest to specify and duplicate. I use it because it's in between the two methods we use when discharging a battery when vaping. Holding the current steady is tougher on the battery than what's done when using a mech but easier on the battery than when we use a regulated mod.

Doing both constant-resistance and constant-power discharge tests, at any discharge level or down to any voltage, wouldn't provide any better data. It would just take much, much longer to do the tests. The relative performance of the batteries wouldn't change.

You say the VTC5 is a 30A cell for our purposes. That's fair. I would probably say 35A due to its decent internal resistance keeping the temperatures and voltage sag average for a high performance 18650"

But those are statements of capability, not battery ratings. Ratings are set to help us choose batteries based on consistent, standardized testing that determine cycle life, safety limits, and (for my pulse tests) actual voltages-under-load. This is what my testing is for.

A battery's capabilities will change for each vaper and their vaping style. We can make some conservative statements that cover most vapers, i.e., VTC5's are a 30A cell, but my testing provides a known, consistent way to narrow down your choice of battery. The pulse discharge testing can help you narrow down your choices even more.

Some only need a general statement of capabilities to determine what battery to buy. Others might want to know that the VTC5A hits harder than the HB6 even though the HB6 has a higher current rating. Or what the safety limits might be in case of a mod malfunction or accidental button press. You can't determine that from capabilities statements, it takes the specific tests that I do.

My test results are there for those who either want to set some conservative safety limits or for those who want to know which battery will actually give them the best performance, i.e., which will give them the highest voltage, longest running time, and/or lowest temperature during use.

I am genuinely interested in hearing what testing parameters you would use, ones you feel would not be flawed. I'm always open to improving my testing.
Thanks for stopping by and providing this info mooch. Very appreciated!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 

Jimi D

Gold Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
As someone else said, I think it's just out of date information. The VTC4 is part of Sony's last generation of batteries. Honestly the VTC5A is better in every way other than being a little more expensive. Before the VTC5A came out, the VTC4 was the hardest hitting power cell Sony had. Nowadays I could see people getting it because it's tried and true and they like sticking with what they know, or if they're on a very strict budget, but otherwise the VTC5A is better.
I've ordered the VTC5a's from you. Thanks Jon, I really love these in my iJoy Zenith mod :)
 
For a long time the market was flooded with counterfeit VTC5s, and so the common refrain was "Buy VTC4s"... this most likely spread from person to person with many of them not knowing why they should buy VTC4s.
 

jazzman

"I'm Old, Fat and Ugly with a crappy attitude!
VU Donator
Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Thanks for your feedback! I feel my test results are directly applicable to vaping.

Every single vaper, new or experienced, uses the continuous discharge rating (CDR) when initially determining if a battery is worth a closer look or purchase. All of us. It's the only way we can compare one battery to another as "pulse" ratings are useless without knowing a lot of info about the pulses, the criteria used to set the rating, etc. The CDR is a standard method of comparing batteries for a good reason, it's done fairly consistently across the big manufacturers.

Determining the CDR is also critical for determining which cell might be the one being rewrapped by the various companies doing that.

The CDR is also a very handy number to have when recommending limits for new vapers.

Lastly, extending the continuous current testing beyond the CDR allows me to determine when a battery might become dangerously hot if there is a mod malfunction or accidental button press (my Maximum Vaping Amps, MVA, rating). This is an important limit for a lot of vapers taking their first step into higher power vaping or unregulated/mechanical mod use.

I measure the temperature of the battery during discharge because it's the only way you can set the CDR (as temperature is the primary determinant of cycle life) and to set safety limits. A rating set without knowing the temperature is useless.

Any vaper is free to vape at current levels higher than the MVA rating, of course. They're not set as a limit for safety or performance. They're set as a way to directly compare one battery against another to determine which might be the best for the way we vape. Some vapers can, of course, use them as safety limits if desired.

We don't need to exactly duplicate the way each vaper uses batteries in order to pick the right one. The relative performance of these batteries changes very little if you compare them when running continuously or when pulsed. Which makes sense. Any discharge over a few milliseconds long is "seen" by the battery as just being a continuous discharge of a different length, whether 3 seconds or 33 minutes.

IMHO, the testing parameters I set for determining the continuous current rating, modeled after those used by Samsung, Sony, LG, and Panasonic/Sanyo, are well chosen for determining the continuous current rating of a battery. What parameters do you feel should be changed?

Or do you mean my feelings that vapers would find the numbers useful is flawed?

To help those who wish to go beyond the CDR and/or MVA rating I do pulse discharges for almost every battery. These go up to 70A if the battery can handle it without dropping below 2.5V immediately. Up to 80A for incredible performers like the A123 26650. This is about a 0.04 ohm total resistance, from the battery out to the coil and back again, simulating a 0.02 ohm or lower coil resistance once contact/mod/atty/connection resistances are taken into account. This would seem to cover just about any vaper out there.

These pulse discharges can be used to directly compare run time, voltage under load (i.e., how hard it hits), and maximum temperatures. None of the tests have to match the way any particular vaper uses them. The tests only have to make it easy to determine which is the best performer at certain discharge current levels.

Why down to 2.5V? It allows for easy comparison between batteries at higher voltages and it helps to show that batteries sag much, much more than people think. Cutting off the discharges at 3.2V or 3.5V (or wherever) wouldn't add any new data and would keep us seeing the true sag in unregulated/mech mods.

You can certainly just set your own cutoff voltage and see how each battery performs down to that point in the graphs.

Why only measure max temperature? I could certainly post plots of the temperatures of each cell during each discharge but most vapers don't need to know the temperature at a certain point, just which battery runs cooler/hotter, i.e., their relative performance. It's already quite confusing for many vapers just to understand the voltages shown in the pulse plots. Having them also have to read the temperature graphs would cause a lot more confusion.

I use constant-current pulses because that discharge method is in between the two methods we use to discharge batteries when vaping; constant-resistance and constant-power.

Constant-resistance discharging simulates what happens when we use an unregulated/mech mod. As the battery voltage drops the current through the (relatively) fixed-resistance coil also drops. This is the discharge method that is easiest on the battery.

Constant-power discharging, used by regulated mods, increases the current through the battery as the voltage drops in order to keep the power being delivered steady. This is the discharge method hardest on the battery.

Constant-current discharging is the standard used for battery testing as it's easiest to specify and duplicate. I use it because it's in between the two methods we use when discharging a battery when vaping. Holding the current steady is tougher on the battery than what's done when using a mech but easier on the battery than when we use a regulated mod.

Doing both constant-resistance and constant-power discharge tests, at any discharge level or down to any voltage, wouldn't provide any better data. It would just take much, much longer to do the tests. The relative performance of the batteries wouldn't change.

You say the VTC5 is a 30A cell for our purposes. That's fair. I would probably say 35A due to its decent internal resistance keeping the temperatures and voltage sag average for a high performance 18650.

But those are statements of capability, not battery ratings. Ratings are set to help us choose batteries based on consistent, standardized testing that determine cycle life, safety limits, and (for my pulse tests) actual voltages-under-load. This is what my testing is for.

A battery's capabilities will change for each vaper and their vaping style. We can make some conservative statements that cover most vapers, i.e., VTC5's are a 30A cell, but my testing provides a known, consistent way to narrow down your choice of battery. The pulse discharge testing can help you narrow down your choices even more.

Some only need a general statement of capabilities to determine what battery to buy. Others might want to know that the VTC5A hits harder than the HB6 even though the HB6 has a higher current rating. Or what the safety limits might be in case of a mod malfunction or accidental button press. You can't determine that from capabilities statements, it takes the specific tests that I do.

My test results are there for those who either want to set some conservative safety limits or for those who want to know which battery will actually give them the best performance, i.e., which will give them the highest voltage, longest running time, and/or lowest temperature during use.

I am genuinely interested in hearing what testing parameters you would use, ones you feel would not be flawed. I'm always open to improving my testing.

Thanks for all you do to help the vaping community Vape Safe.
 
Thanks for your feedback! I feel my test results are directly applicable to vaping.

Every single vaper, new or experienced, uses the continuous discharge rating (CDR) when initially determining if a battery is worth a closer look or purchase. All of us. It's the only way we can compare one battery to another as "pulse" ratings are useless without knowing a lot of info about the pulses, the criteria used to set the rating, etc. The CDR is a standard method of comparing batteries for a good reason, it's done fairly consistently across the big manufacturers.

Determining the CDR is also critical for determining which cell might be the one being rewrapped by the various companies doing that.

The CDR is also a very handy number to have when recommending limits for new vapers.

Lastly, extending the continuous current testing beyond the CDR allows me to determine when a battery might become dangerously hot if there is a mod malfunction or accidental button press (my Maximum Vaping Amps, MVA, rating). This is an important limit for a lot of vapers taking their first step into higher power vaping or unregulated/mechanical mod use.

I measure the temperature of the battery during discharge because it's the only way you can set the CDR (as temperature is the primary determinant of cycle life) and to set safety limits. A rating set without knowing the temperature is useless.

Any vaper is free to vape at current levels higher than the MVA rating, of course. They're not set as a limit for safety or performance. They're set as a way to directly compare one battery against another to determine which might be the best for the way we vape. Some vapers can, of course, use them as safety limits if desired.

We don't need to exactly duplicate the way each vaper uses batteries in order to pick the right one. The relative performance of these batteries changes very little if you compare them when running continuously or when pulsed. Which makes sense. Any discharge over a few milliseconds long is "seen" by the battery as just being a continuous discharge of a different length, whether 3 seconds or 33 minutes.

IMHO, the testing parameters I set for determining the continuous current rating, modeled after those used by Samsung, Sony, LG, and Panasonic/Sanyo, are well chosen for determining the continuous current rating of a battery. What parameters do you feel should be changed?

Or do you mean my feelings that vapers would find the numbers useful is flawed?

To help those who wish to go beyond the CDR and/or MVA rating I do pulse discharges for almost every battery. These go up to 70A if the battery can handle it without dropping below 2.5V immediately. Up to 80A for incredible performers like the A123 26650. This is about a 0.04 ohm total resistance, from the battery out to the coil and back again, simulating a 0.02 ohm or lower coil resistance once contact/mod/atty/connection resistances are taken into account. This would seem to cover just about any vaper out there.

These pulse discharges can be used to directly compare run time, voltage under load (i.e., how hard it hits), and maximum temperatures. None of the tests have to match the way any particular vaper uses them. The tests only have to make it easy to determine which is the best performer at certain discharge current levels.

Why down to 2.5V? It allows for easy comparison between batteries at higher voltages and it helps to show that batteries sag much, much more than people think. Cutting off the discharges at 3.2V or 3.5V (or wherever) wouldn't add any new data and would keep us seeing the true sag in unregulated/mech mods.

You can certainly just set your own cutoff voltage and see how each battery performs down to that point in the graphs.

Why only measure max temperature? I could certainly post plots of the temperatures of each cell during each discharge but most vapers don't need to know the temperature at a certain point, just which battery runs cooler/hotter, i.e., their relative performance. It's already quite confusing for many vapers just to understand the voltages shown in the pulse plots. Having them also have to read the temperature graphs would cause a lot more confusion.

I use constant-current pulses because that discharge method is in between the two methods we use to discharge batteries when vaping; constant-resistance and constant-power.

Constant-resistance discharging simulates what happens when we use an unregulated/mech mod. As the battery voltage drops the current through the (relatively) fixed-resistance coil also drops. This is the discharge method that is easiest on the battery.

Constant-power discharging, used by regulated mods, increases the current through the battery as the voltage drops in order to keep the power being delivered steady. This is the discharge method hardest on the battery.

Constant-current discharging is the standard used for battery testing as it's easiest to specify and duplicate. I use it because it's in between the two methods we use when discharging a battery when vaping. Holding the current steady is tougher on the battery than what's done when using a mech but easier on the battery than when we use a regulated mod.

Doing both constant-resistance and constant-power discharge tests, at any discharge level or down to any voltage, wouldn't provide any better data. It would just take much, much longer to do the tests. The relative performance of the batteries wouldn't change.

You say the VTC5 is a 30A cell for our purposes. That's fair. I would probably say 35A due to its decent internal resistance keeping the temperatures and voltage sag average for a high performance 18650.

But those are statements of capability, not battery ratings. Ratings are set to help us choose batteries based on consistent, standardized testing that determine cycle life, safety limits, and (for my pulse tests) actual voltages-under-load. This is what my testing is for.

A battery's capabilities will change for each vaper and their vaping style. We can make some conservative statements that cover most vapers, i.e., VTC5's are a 30A cell, but my testing provides a known, consistent way to narrow down your choice of battery. The pulse discharge testing can help you narrow down your choices even more.

Some only need a general statement of capabilities to determine what battery to buy. Others might want to know that the VTC5A hits harder than the HB6 even though the HB6 has a higher current rating. Or what the safety limits might be in case of a mod malfunction or accidental button press. You can't determine that from capabilities statements, it takes the specific tests that I do.

My test results are there for those who either want to set some conservative safety limits or for those who want to know which battery will actually give them the best performance, i.e., which will give them the highest voltage, longest running time, and/or lowest temperature during use.

I am genuinely interested in hearing what testing parameters you would use, ones you feel would not be flawed. I'm always open to improving my testing.


I wanna say something that may make some sense to you guys looking at batteries for your unregulated mods. If you want less run-up time on your coils (this can mean less heat as well from the battery) the a lower MAH is preferable. The lower your MAH (pressure pushed by battery) the higher your voltage output will be. So the higher your MAH then the lower your output will be. This is why folks who use mechs love the Vtc4a 's with a MAH of 2100 you get that sweet 3.7v faster on pulse usage. The Vtc5a works well too at 2600. And since this post is old i would argue most mech users are at the 2600 range. So guys if you use a regulated mod please pay close attention that your batteries are the same outputs(same MAH and all should be 3.5-3.7v) if you want to extend your battery life. I would recommend anyone new to stick with a regulated device till you get the proper testing tools for your coils (even pre-builds). BTW who is this Mooch guy? And why did he steal my girl, CONNIE I STILL LOVE YOU!
 

CashNVape

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I just stuck 2 vtc5a in parallel on a series mod and no venting. A little bit of heat and sparks followed by smoke but no fire. Batteries are trash now and mod is fine but this was a test to see if they'll vent. Can't say the same for vtc4 batteries

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
i assume i was a mod like a noisy cricket (can you add your model please)? i use a screaming trees arbor as my mech and it is a very nice model,just sayin lol.. anywho im wondering did you put the batteries both with the same side up? like both positive up? what kind of coil material and what was the resistance on the coil please?
 

CashNVape

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
i assume i was a mod like a noisy cricket (can you add your model please)? i use a screaming trees arbor as my mech and it is a very nice model,just sayin lol.. anywho im wondering did you put the batteries both with the same side up? like both positive up? what kind of coil material and what was the resistance on the coil please?
Noisy cricket .09 ohm aliens in a copper goon 24.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

BoomStick

Gold Contributor
Member For 5 Years
You say the VTC5 is a 30A cell for our purposes. That's fair. I would probably say 35A due to its decent internal resistance keeping the temperatures and voltage sag average for a high performance 18650.
All I was trying to say.
 

gsmit1

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Constant-resistance discharging simulates what happens when we use an unregulated/mech mod. As the battery voltage drops the current through the (relatively) fixed-resistance coil also drops. This is the discharge method that is easiest on the battery.

Constant-power discharging, used by regulated mods, increases the current through the battery as the voltage drops in order to keep the power being delivered steady. This is the discharge method hardest on the battery.
I never thought of this.
 

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