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Mech Mod - what is the real story?

PaulS

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So I've been told a lot of things over the years about mechs:

Silver hits noticeably harder

In fact it hits marguinally harder. But what it does do is increase the ramp up time which feels like a noticeably harder hit. You really cannot tell much of a difference between copper and silver as far as voltage. But you can feel a more immediate response. This why people like their silver contacts.

21700s hit harder than 18650s

Nonsense. I will put a 20s sanyo against a 30t any day. The difference is battery life. However, I prefer 18650s. My 18650 are smaller and lighter and way more comfortable for me. I am vaping today on a non-hybrid OG AV. I'm using a .2 ohm coil single coil. Hits like a truck. That's because I have a low mass coil.

Battery orientation should be positive down

Umm, no. It really depends on the mod. People are worried about battries venting. I get that. So make sure your wraps are proper. Don't build below .1 ohm unless you are sensitive to the heat. Use a proper atty for hybrids. Yes some maufacturers recommend positive down but many mods vent either from the top or bottom.

Okay - your turn. Let's hear about other common assumptions that may or may not be accurate ...
 

Carambrda

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When Mooch did the real world test, it turned out that the difference in voltage drop between the Admiral in brass and in copper was 8 milli-volts vs 7 milli-volts so only 12.5 percent less voltage drop going from the brass to the copper. His testing was done with a 30A load, so about 110 watts. At 30A, 0.007 volts voltage drop translates to a power loss of only 0.21 watts, whereas 0.008 volts voltage drop translates to a power loss of 0.24 watts. That's only a 0.03 watts difference. So the reason why you aren't gonna notice this 0.03 watts difference is simply because, if you're vaping at 110 watts, there's a really, REALLY good chance you aren't even going to notice a 0.3 watts difference, let alone notice a 0.03 watts difference. That plus the fact the difference between copper and silver is even smaller than the difference between brass and copper.

But some people still like to brag because they keep wanting to believe in Black Magic. Your story about the ramp up time is just an old fantasy tale because, vaping at 110 watts, a 0.03 watts difference equals only 0.00027 percent. Before we can talk, let's see you feel a 0.01 percent difference first. lol.. just lol

Solid pure silver contacts do matter. As for the maintenance, that is, and also if the button contact and/or firing mechanism has been poorly designed and/or mishandled, much to the point of solid pure silver being capable to be used to try and "cover up" the fact, i.e. by curing symptoms instead of by addressing the root cause of the problem. But using solid pure silver for the body of the tube mech mod? No. The wall thickness of the tube would have to be almost as thin as tinfol before this difference in voltage drop will become in any way noticeable by vaping. If it is at least a few millimeters thick, then no. Simple physics is simple.

As for "21700s hit harder than 18650s", yes the 30T does hit a bit harder than the 20S, as the test results from Mooch clearly show. But you might not notice it in practice. The higher you go up in coil resistance, the smaller the difference becomes. This is due to the fact a higher coil resistance causes less current to be drawn from the battery (i.e. the load drops, and so the voltage sag also becomes smaller as a result). I do notice the difference on a single battery tube mech with a dual coil aliens build at 0.11 ohms, 27/36 Ni80, 4.5 wraps, 2.5mm ID.

This doesn't stop me from using the 20S in a single battery tube mech, though. (I use both the 30T and the 20S in my single battery tube mechs these days, even though previously I used to prefer the 20S for that, but these days it just depends... like, it partially depends on the choice of atomizer, the drip tip, or actually the height of the drip tip.)

Further, the battery orientation thing goes as follows. First, consult the official documentation of the mod when possible, or else just ask the manufacturer. Failing that, the general rule of thumb is to put the positive side of the battery closest to where the vent holes are. The reasoning behind that general rule of thumb comes from the fact a battery can start swelling due to high pressure buildup inside the battery before it vents, and, because the manufacturers know that mech users don't like battery rattle, they usually design the mods to have very little amount of spacing between the wall of the tube and the side of the battery. So if the battery swells inside the narrow tube, it closes off the only trajectory between the vent holes and the pressure escaping from positive side of the venting battery, thereby it renders the vent holes useless.

Another thing to also be aware of is, if the inside of the tube doesn't have an insulator lining or sleeve, then if you put the battery upside down, any damage to the side of the battery wrap can immediately cause a hard short because the side of the battery is negative whereas the whole body of the mod is─due to the battery being upside down─positive. However... torn battery wraps are ALWAYS a recipe for disaster no matter what, so don't let the presence of the insulator lining or sleeve be your pretext for using a battery with a torn battery wrap. Just be aware that a battery wrap can get damaged by rubbing against something sharp inside the mod, and that this can affect the final risk outcome if the battery is upside down.

On a hybrid or direct-to-battery mech mod, use an atomizer with a protruding 510 center pin. On ANY type of mech mod, NEVER use a tank with a drop in coil; drop in coils typically contain a silicone/rubber insulator that separates the positive contact from the negative contact, and that can potentially collapse UNEXPECTEDLY and in such a way that it might cause a hard short DURING normal use. Coil build absolute permanent stability is always compulsory on every mech.
 

Carambrda

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People talk about how one resistance coil will perform compared to another resistance coil with no consideration of coil mass or geometry. A resistance measurement alone means nothing.
A resistance measurement alone means nothing. But a resistance measurement in cohort with knowing how many volts you'll get means you can calculate the wattage, even though knowing the wattage is still looking at an incomplete picture due to not knowing the coil volume (mass is simply irrelevant, as instead, we calculate the volume, i.e by looking at wire thicknesses and lengths, and also the number of wire strands for each different type of wire used) or the metal type(s) (specifically, their VHC, i.e. volumetric heat capacity) or geometry or airflow and the various many characteristics closely related to airflow like, for example, the positioning of the coil(s).
 

BoomStick

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A resistance measurement alone means nothing. But a resistance measurement in cohort with knowing how many volts you'll get means you can calculate the wattage, even though knowing the wattage is still looking at an incomplete picture due to not knowing the coil volume (mass is simply irrelevant, as instead, we calculate the volume, i.e by looking at wire thicknesses and lengths, and also the number of wire strands for each different type of wire used) or the metal type(s) (specifically, their VHC, i.e. volumetric heat capacity) or geometry or airflow and the various many characteristics closely related to airflow like, for example, the positioning of the coil(s).
I wish you would just stop. Your arrogance has gotten old. Volume is covered by the word geometry. You always have some something to say even when you have nothing to say.
 
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Carambrda

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I wish you would just stop. Your arrogance has gotten old. Volume is covered by the word geometry. You always have some something to say even when you have nothing to say.
Your own plain stupidity is what has gotten old. The simple fact volume is covered by the word geometry, doesn't also mean the mass is going to be relevant in any way, and, this has got nothing to do with arrogance so you can stop wasting everyone's time with your own retarded remarks.
 

CrazyChef v2.0

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Here we go. Again. You would think that after being called a douchebag,etc. numerous times by numerous people, eventually said douchebag (etc.) would "get it". Guess not.
 

Carambrda

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Here we go. Again. You would think that after being called a douchebag,etc. numerous times by numerous people, eventually said douchebag (etc.) would "get it". Guess not.
Of course there's still people who won't ever "get it". That's just because you can't fix stupid, but others might stumble across this thread in the future and more easily be able to see who is spreading all the misinformation.
 

AndriaD

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To contribute to the common misperceptions idea of the OP...

I get really tired of seeing totally ignorant people say things like "mech mods will blow up." Well, if the person using the mech is a total idiot with their coil resistance requiring more than their cheapie low-amp batteries can handle, and the mech has no venting whatever, then it MIGHT "blow up." But those who have some variation of a brain in their heads, who do the math (or look at steam-engine.org) to make sure their coil is within their battery's capacity, don't usually have "exploding mechs."

There are a few things about mechs I don't really care for, so I have 2 mechs, and about 20-odd regulated mods... but I did learn, at one point, how to safely use those mechs -- because I do have a brain in my head, and really don't care to have my face rearranged. It's really NOT that hard, even if, like me, you haven't memorized Ohm's Law -- that's what steam-engine.org is for!

Andria
 

Carambrda

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To contribute to the common misperceptions idea of the OP...

I get really tired of seeing totally ignorant people say things like "mech mods will blow up." Well, if the person using the mech is a total idiot with their coil resistance requiring more than their cheapie low-amp batteries can handle, and the mech has no venting whatever, then it MIGHT "blow up." But those who have some variation of a brain in their heads, who do the math (or look at steam-engine.org) to make sure their coil is within their battery's capacity, don't usually have "exploding mechs."

There are a few things about mechs I don't really care for, so I have 2 mechs, and about 20-odd regulated mods... but I did learn, at one point, how to safely use those mechs -- because I do have a brain in my head, and really don't care to have my face rearranged. It's really NOT that hard, even if, like me, you haven't memorized Ohm's Law -- that's what steam-engine.org is for!

Andria
Well said. I don't want to see mech mods get banned, and so I'm hoping for the best, but unfortunately there is a conspiracy going on against vaping so mech mods are always an easy target when the powerful mixture of ignorance and scaremongering propaganda takes over.
 

AndriaD

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Well said. I don't want to see mech mods get banned, and so I'm hoping for the best, but unfortunately there is a conspiracy going on against vaping so mech mods are always an easy target when the powerful mixture of ignorance and scaremongering propaganda takes over.

No kidding. Even though I do vastly prefer regulated mods, I've had a lot more "issues" with regulated mods doing weird things, than with mechs. I suppose that might be just because I use regulated mods so much more, just how it's bound to fall out, I guess.

But decrying total idiocy... talk about a losing battle. Idiots are going to remain idiots despite what anyone else ever says or tries to teach them. Ignorance is not too hard to remedy, especially if the ignorant person is aware of their ignorance and wishes to learn... but stupidity is just forever. People who blame mechs for "blowing up" are the same people who say things like "My vape blew up" -- no, it didn't; it was that loose battery in your pocket that made a circuit with your coins or keys and then vented. Those are the folks who get the Idiot Vaper in the Media award every month or so, and those people DAMN sure have no business using mechs. If they can't bother to even carry their batteries in safe containers, I'm afraid that Ohm's Law will be forever out of their reach.

Andria
 

Carambrda

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No kidding. Even though I do vastly prefer regulated mods, I've had a lot more "issues" with regulated mods doing weird things, than with mechs. I suppose that might be just because I use regulated mods so much more, just how it's bound to fall out, I guess.

But decrying total idiocy... talk about a losing battle. Idiots are going to remain idiots despite what anyone else ever says or tries to teach them. Ignorance is not too hard to remedy, especially if the ignorant person is aware of their ignorance and wishes to learn... but stupidity is just forever. People who blame mechs for "blowing up" are the same people who say things like "My vape blew up" -- no, it didn't; it was that loose battery in your pocket that made a circuit with your coins or keys and then vented. Those are the folks who get the Idiot Vaper in the Media award every month or so, and those people DAMN sure have no business using mechs. If they can't bother to even carry their batteries in safe containers, I'm afraid that Ohm's Law will be forever out of their reach.

Andria
Not all vaping related battery incidents are caused by user stupidity or ignorance, though. Just the vast majority of them seem to be that. Using a battery with a torn battery wrap inside any type of mod is highly dangerous, and this clearly is an example of something that we can teach, more or less easily I guess, despite I believe we should not underestimate the challenge. But unfortunately a lot of incidents happen whilst a regulated mod is internally charging via USB so, because internal charging tends to look intuitively straightforward and convenient to do for most people, and also because getting an external charger costs extra money, teaching this is often a much harder challenge, as more people will try to keep arguing about this. You can't internally charge a mech so I consider that a plus.

Another plus IMO is a mech effectively prevents the user from always relying on the built-in safety features of a regulated mod's chip that typically will be made from chinesium, as teaching this often also proves to be a much harder challenge. Catastrophies usually involve a certain combination of multiple factors. At least with a mech at the hands of an educated user the factors are less blurry overall. Whereas the built-in safety protections of a regulated mod are an open invitation to NOT educate theirself about battery safety. The thing that really makes me want to puke down the chuff of my RDA is that some vapers are supporting the banning of mechs and so are willing to throw mech users under the bus for the "greater good" of saving the vaping industry from going under as a result from the inquisition and burning tobacco purgatory.
 

AndriaD

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That's quite true about some incidents not being due to general stupidity, but perhaps carelessness...? Maybe a failure to observe is closer to the mark -- my son, who is currently studying to be an electrical engineer, knows very damn well about the danger of a battery wrapper with even a tiny nick -- yet quite recently he experienced his mod becoming quite warm in his pocket, despite being turned off -- because one of the batteries in it had a small nick. And he knows we have extra battery wrappers, and I've shown him how easy it is to rewrap a battery using a plain old blow dryer -- yet he failed to observe that small nick and so lost both of those batteries due to overheating. I wanted to smack him, HARD -- I always buy from liionwholesale so the prices are great, but still... they're not FREE!

I suspect you're probably also right about idiots who depend so fully on the built-in safety features that they never bother to learn anything, because you know, that learning thing is so HAAAAAAAAARD... whining morons. I really can't be arsed to worry about those who fully deserve the Darwin award; in fact, I wish they'd take all those damn safety stickers off chain saws and tall ladders so the morons would take themselves out of the human gene pool faster! And I dearly wish they'd take that imbecile Gottlieb with them. He has GOT to be on the take from Big Pharma, to have gone from talking about the "continuum of risk" all the way to talking abiout killing the entire vape industry because of the totally non-existent "youth vaping epidemic." :facepalm:

Andria
 

PaulS

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Another myth is one perpetrated by MTL vapers. I have a few 18350 mechs with RTAs and RDAs. You can build high enough for a very nice MTL vape with a mech. Also a few smaller mechs can have a mosfet (kick) installed if you really are scared of mechanicals.
 

AndriaD

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Another myth is one perpetrated by MTL vapers. I have a few 18350 mechs with RTAs and RDAs. You can build high enough for a very nice MTL vape with a mech. Also a few smaller mechs can have a mosfet (kick) installed if you really are scared of mechanicals.

I don't think I've heard that myth. I always vape MtL, can't vape any other way. If I do use one of my mechs, I always use a Kick, just so I can still vape at my usual 10w. But I mainly have the mechs, and a stash of Kicks, as "vapocalypse insurance."

Andria
 

r055co

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Another myth is one perpetrated by MTL vapers. I have a few 18350 mechs with RTAs and RDAs. You can build high enough for a very nice MTL vape with a mech. Also a few smaller mechs can have a mosfet (kick) installed if you really are scared of mechanicals.

Yep, it’s a balancing act with wire mass, resistance and power (battery). For high resistance I like using small gauge and get a very pleasant vape on my 18350 tubes. I like spinning up 317L Fused Clapton’s with either 36g or 34g core wires. Response is great and the Vape is rather good.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 

gsmit1

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Here's a great question. How long does it take for a lithium ion battery to go to catastrophic failure once the circumstance for said event is in place?

In other words, is it close the circuit ,and BOOM, or is there sufficient warning symptoms to give a semi-concious user time to respond? I'm sure it varies somewhat depending on the specifics of the situation, but generally speaking.

I've seen videos where somebody intentionally hard shorts an 18650 in a controlled environment and it takes the better part of a minute of hissing and gas before it explodes. Makes me wonder how anybody could miss all that on the way to losing their teeth.
 
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CrazyChef v2.0

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I honestly don't know the answer to this, but I've always figured it had something to do with the amount of amperage being drawn from the cell. My thoughts, in simplistic terms: if a battery has a max capacity of 20 amps, and the coil is pulling 22 amps, it takes longer to vent the cell than using a coil that is pulling something like 65 amps. I have nothing to back this up, it just seems to be a logical summation of the situation.
 

gsmit1

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I honestly don't know the answer to this, but I've always figured it had something to do with the amount of amperage being drawn from the cell. My thoughts, in simplistic terms: if a battery has a max capacity of 20 amps, and the coil is pulling 22 amps, it takes longer to vent the cell than using a coil that is pulling something like 65 amps. I have nothing to back this up, it just seems to be a logical summation of the situation.
That does make sense, but then here's something else to consider.
Mooch has a temperature limit that he considers to be safe for a battery to run at under load for an extended period of time .Whatever the highest amp load that that battery can sustain within that temperature limit he calls the maximum CDR. Perfect.

But then I read his expert test results and he's talking about temperatures far FAR above that safe limit. So he calls foul on the wrap claim for that amp rating for that battery. Also perfect.

The nagging question for me is, how is he running a battery at 30% over it's reasonably safe amp limit, at really high temperatures, for a couple hours, and all that happens is that it gets a reduced or bad rating?

What does somebody have to be doing to blow one up? Of course that's not going to be a simple 3 sentence answer, but whatever it is, I'd like to know. I'd ask him, but he gets 10 million questions a day as it is.
 
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CrazyChef v2.0

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The nagging question for me is, how is he running a battery at 30% over it's reasonably safe amp limit
Most likely via pulsing. There are 2 common amp ratings: the pulse rating and the CDR (continuous discharge rate). The CDR is the rating with the safety limits - at least with reputable manufacturers it is - and the pulse rating is how far you can (in theory) max out the cell amp limit.
 

The Cromwell

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6 strand 30 ga magnesium coils hit the hardest in a mech.
Once :)

Warning do not try this at home.
 

gsmit1

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Most likely via pulsing. There are 2 common amp ratings: the pulse rating and the CDR (continuous discharge rate). The CDR is the rating with the safety limits - at least with reputable manufacturers it is - and the pulse rating is how far you can (in theory) max out the cell amp limit.
That's true too, but he addresses that directly and says that he never tests for pulse rating because it's impossible to standardize. I dunno.
You see what I'm saying. Somebody deliberately shorts a high drain 18650 in the most hideous way and it takes a relatively long time to actually explode. Mooch runs his tests very significantly beyond what he himself says is a recommendable current draw for very long periods of time.

Some guy puts a tube up to his mouth, presses the button and he's in the news. Something is quite amiss here.
 

The Cromwell

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That's true too, but he addresses that directly and says that he never tests for pulse rating because it's impossible to standardize. I dunno.
You see what I'm saying. Somebody deliberately shorts a high drain 18650 in the most hideous way and it takes a relatively long time to actually explode. Mooch runs his tests very significantly beyond what he himself says is a recommendable current draw for very long periods of time.

Some guy puts a tube up to his mouth, presses the button and he's in the news. Something is quite amiss here.
Some people keep pressing the button expecting it to start working, when in reality it is shorted...

Kinda like looking down a gun barrel to see why it did not fire when you pulled the trigger.

Crappy grossly overrated batteries contribute to the problem as well.
or just buying the totally wrong battery...
Ohh those 18650's at Wal Mart will work won't they? They fit in there. Good to go or blow?
Factory coil tanks on a hybrid style mech...
 

The Cromwell

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Mechs are NOT, NOT, NOT for the beginner or those not willing to learn how to use properly.
 

gsmit1

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Mechs are NOT, NOT, NOT for the beginner or those not willing to learn how to use properly.
No, of course that's true. I have several mechs, all working great with the right batteries and proper builds and maintenance. This is just something I've been wondering about for a while now.
 

The Cromwell

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Mooch needs to get some hot women in his vids to up his viewership.
And people would watch and inadvertently learn some battery safety who would not normally watch.
 

gsmit1

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Counter intuitively, he made series setups sound actually safer.

EDIT: Which does make sense since you're getting the amp draw of a single battery, but at double the voltage.
 
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The Cromwell

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Unbelievably informative video that, through no fault of his own, cleared up pretty much nothing.
Not for those of us who are followers of the Great battery guru.
But non followers could learn valuable information.

Mooch rulz the vape battery world.
 

gsmit1

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Not for those of us who are followers of the Great battery guru.
But non followers could learn valuable information.

Mooch rulz the vape battery world.
Well yes. I was using "unbelievably" as an adjectival hyperbole :) Not meaning that it was actually surprising or difficult to believe. I've seen all his videos several times each, and yes he is indeed a true expert and a godsend to the vaping community. He is one guy who I don't think I've ever seen being disagreed with. He handles that responsibility well too.
 

CrazyChef v2.0

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half the population is female,,, if it takes hot women to educate the other half,,, why bother natural selection will weed them out :)
Okay, so we alternate to keep the ladies happy - Even numbered videos have hot chicks in them, and odd numbered videos have Mooch wearing nothing but a g-string banana hammock.
 

AndriaD

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Okay, so we alternate to keep the ladies happy - Even numbered videos have hot chicks in them, and odd numbered videos have Mooch wearing nothing but a g-string banana hammock.

Depends very much on what Mooch looks like. If he's not a "hot man," then it's still unfair.(most "vape males" I've seen, I definitely DON'T want to see less than fully clothed!) We should get alternate vids of shirtless hardbody cowboys in tight jeans that inform us as to their religion. ;)

Andria
 

The Cromwell

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Hmm make me wonder what the ratio of male to female vapers is...

And Mooch is hot as an electron!
 
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kross8

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Okay, so we alternate to keep the ladies happy - Even numbered videos have hot chicks in them, and odd numbered videos have Mooch wearing nothing but a g-string banana hammock.
I'm OK with general plan,,, but as you have proven (oh so sadly!! ! !) the ladies will pick our male model out -no offense to Mooch)
 

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