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400mg's of nicotine to dangerous?

wally

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lol, well Wally, the only "problem" I see is this false shrill claim you made - twice in this thread. And that's your problem, not mine. :D

I provided a link and evidence of this being untrue with this link, from the Archives of Toxicology:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880486/
"The discrepancy between the 60-mg dose and published cases of nicotine intoxication has been noted previously (Matsushima et al. 1995; Metzler et al. 2005), but nonetheless, this value is still accepted without scrutiny and taken as the basis for worldwide safety regulations of tobacco and other nicotine-containing products. Nicotine is a toxic compound that should be handled with care, but the frequent warnings of potential fatalities caused by ingestion of small amounts of tobacco products or diluted nicotine-containing solutions are unjustified and need to be revised in light of overwhelming data indicating that more than 0.5 g of oral nicotine is required to kill an adult."

If anyone cares to actually read it (though admittedly, its more fun to just you know, write shit), it even goes into the history of how the false claims of an LD 60 mg came to be in the 19th century, and how that incorrect information is still being propagated even today.

If posting factual data is a problem, I am happy to claim it. haha :D
David are you trying to tell me that 6% 60 mg would not make me sick if I got it on my skin because I have been making juice with this % for almost 6 years and a few time that I have got it in my skin I Have got ill from it. As far as to 1000mg 99.8% pure you have not supplied the proof that it will not harm you if you got it on your skin.
 

David Wolf

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David are you trying to tell me that 6% 60 mg would not make me sick if I got it on my skin because I have been making juice with this % for almost 6 years and a few time that I have got it in my skin I Have got ill from it. As far as to 1000mg 99.8% pure you have not supplied the proof that it will not harm you if you got it on your skin.
I edited my post to address 60 mg/ml nic. I will take you at your word you got sick, but you must have got a lot on you and it must have been on you a while for that to happen. Another possiblity is your fears got the best of you :p Do you really think a skin does is more dangerous than an oral dose or an inhalation dose?
Its not: http://www.ilo.org/legacy/english/protection/sIf afework/ghs/ghsfinal/ghsc05.pdf
Edit: (this article discusses LD's for oral, skin, etc., its not talking specifically about nicotine. Read down for any given category to see the differences for oral, skin, etc.).

Did you miss the part about the evidence of a lethal Oral dose being 0.5g nicotine, or 500 mg nicotine in the paper I linked to in my post above? One drop of pure nicotine, 1000 mg/ml, is about 25-30mg of nic. And you have to rub it in to get it all lol. If you wash it off, you get a few mg perhaps. yes, 1000 mg/ml Nic is hazardous, and should only be used by those equipped to handle it. But its not deadly with one drop. That, is false.
:facepalm:
 
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wally

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Yes just read it and proves me right fatal in category one and two with contact with skin. And toxic in category 3 Thanks! Although did not read anything about a drop it just says fatal with contact with skin.
 
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David Wolf

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Yes just read it and proves me right fatal in category one and two with contact with skin. And toxic in category 3 Thanks!
The link I posted that you're quoting from is to show the differences in LD doses for oral, skin, etc. for various categories, and I posted that only to show an oral does of a given substance is more dangerous than a skin dose. And for a given category, you read down vertically, not across, to see skin vs oral, etc. Has nothing to do with nicotine, you won't find "nicotine" anywhere in it. The link to the Nicotine Toxiology is here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880486/
 
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wally

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Yea your right I assumed that it was talking about nic content ect.
 

David Wolf

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Yea your right I assumed that it was talking about nic content ect.
Partly my fault i think, I didn't clarify that the link discussion LD for oral, skin, etc. it was not specifically talking about nicotine.
I'm going to edit my post above, the way I should have written it the first time, my apologies. Have a good night Wally.
 

AndriaD

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Again 6% is or 6MG/Ml is an unusual concentration to have and your insistence of that concentration is what proves it is BS because you never said where it came from. Again I call BULL SHIT. Leave me alone and stop quoting me because I won't believe you if you say the sky is blue at this point

No, 6% is 60mg. As 10% is 100mg.

Andria
 

AndriaD

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Here's my take, on 1000mg nicotine: I suspect that one drop, on your skin, would not kill you, because it would probably burn like a mofo and you'd be QUICK to run that drop under cold water and get it off you! But you might feel a little sick, if you didn't get it off PDQ. However... one drop in any mucous membrane (mouth, nose, eyes, open sore, etc)... that might be a horse of another color entirely, and I for one would NOT want to risk it. I'm not a chemist, do not have a hazmat suit nor a fume hood, and as cavalier as I have grown to using 100mg (10%), I wouldn't feel comfortable using anything over maybe twice that strength -- 200mg. And though I don't wear gloves, usually, when adding a bit of 100mg to my mixes, I would definitely wear gloves and as much protection as I could find (plastic apron or poncho, goggles, gloves) if I needed to dilute 200mg down to 100mg or less.

I don't think there's any need to treat 10%-25% nicotine (100mg-250mg) like fucking nuclear waste.... but the stuff has to be respected and treated with caution; if you aren't a professional with professional safety equipment, you really have no business messing with stronger than probably 250mg, and even that would require great care.

Just my own 2 cents... don't spend it all at once. ;)
Andria
 

David Wolf

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the more I've read the better I feel working with 100 mg/ml nic. I don't think one drop of 100 mg/ml will burn the skin or cause any noticeable effect if I just wash it off. In fact I'm confident enough reading the Nicotine Toxicology paper I will likely prove it to myself soon.
I would never work with 1000 mg/ml except under lab conditions and protective equipment.
 

AndriaD

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the more I've read the better I feel working with 100 mg/ml nic. I don't think one drop of 100 mg/ml will burn the skin at all, just wash it off. In fact I'm confident enough reading the Nicotine Toxicology paper I will likely prove it to myself soon.

You're right, it doesn't burn the skin; I've gotten smidges of it on my fingers when I'm drawing it up in a syringe -- however it burns like FUCK FUCK FUCK!!! in an open sore. :giggle: And I make an effort to keep it away from any proximity to my face... just in case. ;) I always mix right next to the sink, so I can rinse my syringes quickly, so getting a bit of 100mg nic off my fingers is no biggie at all. But... if I was ever to spill any, I'd probably glove up, to do the clean-up.

Andria
 

wllmc

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you wouldnt even need a drop on your skin with 99% pure, the fumes will be enough to do damage. 100mg gives me a buzz when I get it on my skin and Ive been mixing a little over 4 years with 100mg. anything over 100mg for personal use is irresponsible. without a lab and the proper hazmat equipment and a plan for when something does go wrong because it will. its like playing with fire and one deserves what they get not to mention ruining it for everyone else ... 100mg is the strongest that should be available to us as its not so bad if something goes wrong but I personally think ones facility should have to undergo inspection for anything above that. the stronger the nic the more precise everything needs to be, a little bad math or poor work habits can really hurt someone.
 
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Heabob

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I've spilled my 50mg/ml on my hands a couple times.
I just calmly got up and went to the sink to rinse with cold water.
Didn't bother me a bit.

Don't think I'd dump the 400mg/ml myself though.
Unless I dumped them into a 1 gallon pump sprayer for bugs.

Otherwise I'd just cut them with PG/VG, (outside with gloves and safety glasses)
And a bucket of water close just in case.
Probably have to get a test kit to verify the strength anyway.
 

Time

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you wouldnt even need a drop on your skin with 99% pure, the fumes will be enough to do damage. 100mg gives me a buzz when I get it on my skin and Ive been mixing a little over 4 years with 100mg. anything over 100mg for personal use is irresponsible. without a lab and the proper hazmat equipment and a plan for when something does go wrong because it will. its like playing with fire and one deserves what they get not to mention ruining it for everyone else ... 100mg is the strongest that should be available to us as its not so bad if something goes wrong but I personally think ones facility should have to undergo inspection for anything above that. the stronger the nic the more precise everything needs to be, a little bad math or poor work habits can really hurt someone.

Thankfully, other than your opinion on the internet, you don't have any say in the matter. The last thing I need is you deciding what I can and can't do.

The only nic related death that I'm aware of was with 100mg/ml. The "safer" stuff, lol. And the child drank it.

So, there's that......................................
 

wllmc

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and like clock work there is Time. whats up dude. your opinion is yours to have. thanks for letting me know its not my decision I almost signed a few executive orders.
 

Time

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and like clock work there is Time. whats up dude. your opinion is yours to have. thanks for letting me know its not my decision I almost signed a few executive orders.

Happy to help. Is there anything else that I might do that you find too dangerous to be legal? Horses kill allot of people, maybe we can start a thread about making any horse bigger than a mini illegal to own. You know, cuz sumbody might get hurt with a pure horse. I sure wouldn't want somebody to get hurt and ruin it for the rest of us that know what we're doing. :(
 

David Wolf

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Thankfully, other than your opinion on the internet, you don't have any say in the matter. The last thing I need is you deciding what I can and can't do.

The only nic related death that I'm aware of was with 100mg/ml. The "safer" stuff, lol. And the child drank it.

So, there's that......................................
I wouldn't be afraid to mix 200 myself. I agree that I don't need the government to take care of me or tell me what I can and can't do in my personal life.
 

David Wolf

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you wouldnt even need a drop on your skin with 99% pure, the fumes will be enough to do damage. 100mg gives me a buzz when I get it on my skin and Ive been mixing a little over 4 years with 100mg. anything over 100mg for personal use is irresponsible. without a lab and the proper hazmat equipment and a plan for when something does go wrong because it will. its like playing with fire and one deserves what they get not to mention ruining it for everyone else ... 100mg is the strongest that should be available to us as its not so bad if something goes wrong but I personally think ones facility should have to undergo inspection for anything above that. the stronger the nic the more precise everything needs to be, a little bad math or poor work habits can really hurt someone.
Vape shops that do their own mixing arent necessarily safer, they often have younger folks mixing with high nic. I haven't personally tried the fumes of 1000 mg/ml but I doubt they would do me in on a quick whiff. I sure don't detect much on 100. I got 32 mg on my hand from a leaky tank and couldn't wash it off for about 5 or 6 minutes since I was driving and it was about like vaping for a few minutes as far as effect goes. I mix 100 all the time with care and no worries.
 

wllmc

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Vape shops that do their own mixing arent necessarily safer, they often have younger folks mixing with high nic. I haven't personally tried the fumes of 1000 mg/ml but I doubt they would do me in on a quick whiff. I sure don't detect much on 100. I got 32 mg on my hand from a leaky tank and couldn't wash it off for about 5 or 6 minutes since I was driving and it was about like vaping for a few minutes as far as effect goes. I mix 100 all the time with care and no worries.

I agree B&M vape shops can be kinda crazy when it comes to being safe or smart. none of us need anyone to tell us what to do but regulations do save lives and that's not debatable really. my new term for it is the "Time" factor. when assessing dangers in any given task or job there is the "Time" factor. people who go around with that Im a big boy attitude half harzardly going around doing "whatever they want" automatically putting themselves and others in danger that result in something called a near miss because they have no concern for safety.. a near miss is a narrowly avoided accident. Times reason for no regulations is that only 1 kid died from drinking 100mg so we should just let people do what they want. so right there we know that 100mg nic will infact kill people. how many near misses occurred because luckily 100mg nicotine was not being used but maybe 50mg. now if the norm were 500mg then how many more hands would this 500mg nicotine be in and how many more of those near misses would result in death? the problem is not the purity of the nicotine its the "Time" factor and if a vape shop or Eliquid company doesnt have the concern for safety to go about things in a safe manner then why would they care about you or your health? unless you are mass producing in a facility designed for it what is the real value of having such a hazardous material like pure nic in your home?

just because you or I can make reasonable decisions that doesnt mean there isnt some dude somewhere with 500mg nic on the table and a toddler playing on the floor.

and thats just my opinion as my buddy Time has pointed out its not my decision luckily I could really kinda care less what other people do I mix my own if everyone else wants to play with 1000mg to sound cool thats fine with me
 
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David Wolf

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I agree B&M vape shops can be kinda crazy when it comes to being safe or smart. none of us need anyone to tell us what to do but regulations do save lives and that's not debatable really. my new term for it is the "Time" factor. when assessing dangers in any given task or job there is the "Time" factor. people who go around with that Im a big boy attitude half harzardly going around doing "whatever they want" automatically putting themselves and others in danger that result in something called a near miss because they have no concern for safety.. a near miss is a narrowly avoided accident. Times reason for no regulations is that only 1 kid died from drinking 100mg so we should just let people do what they want. so right there we know that 100mg nic will infact kill people. how many near misses occurred because luckily 100mg nicotine was not being used but maybe 50mg. now if the norm were 500mg then how many more hands would this 500mg nicotine be in and how many more of those near misses would result in death? the problem is not the purity of the nicotine its the "Time" factor and if a vape shop or Eliquid company doesnt have the concern for safety to go about things in a safe manner then why would they care about you or your health? unless you are mass producing in a facility designed for it what is the real value of having such a hazardous material like pure nic in your home?

just because you or I can make reasonable decisions that doesnt mean there isnt some dude somewhere with 500mg nic on the table and a toddler playing on the floor.

and thats just my opinion as my buddy Time has pointed out its not my decision luckily I could really kinda care less what other people do I mix my own if everyone else wants to play with 1000mg to sound cool thats fine with me
Well I respect your opinion though it's not the same as mine. I just think we have too many people with good intentions making rules and laws for Other people...I'm pretty much a believer in freedom as long as you don't hurt someone else for example I think 200 mg/ml isn't a bad self imposed limit for me personally to mix. .but your limit that you would impose on everyone, not just yourself, is 100 mg/ml. your personal opinion imposed on everyone. Hmmm. And it's a parents job to take care of their kids.. not Nanny Nation that's been trying to shut down vaping and pretty much any other freedom we have.. So we can agree to disagree. :)
 

wllmc

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Well I respect your opinion though it's not the same as mine. I just think we have too many people with good intentions making rules and laws for Other people...I'm pretty much a believer in freedom as long as you don't hurt someone else. And it's a parents job to take care of their kids.. not Nanny Nation that's been trying to shut down vaping and pretty much any other freedom we have.. So we can agree to disagree. :)
Ill drink to that :cheers:
 

David Wolf

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I agree B&M vape shops can be kinda crazy when it comes to being safe or smart. none of us need anyone to tell us what to do but regulations do save lives and that's not debatable really. my new term for it is the "Time" factor. when assessing dangers in any given task or job there is the "Time" factor. people who go around with that Im a big boy attitude half harzardly going around doing "whatever they want" automatically putting themselves and others in danger that result in something called a near miss because they have no concern for safety.. a near miss is a narrowly avoided accident. Times reason for no regulations is that only 1 kid died from drinking 100mg so we should just let people do what they want. so right there we know that 100mg nic will infact kill people. how many near misses occurred because luckily 100mg nicotine was not being used but maybe 50mg. now if the norm were 500mg then how many more hands would this 500mg nicotine be in and how many more of those near misses would result in death? the problem is not the purity of the nicotine its the "Time" factor and if a vape shop or Eliquid company doesnt have the concern for safety to go about things in a safe manner then why would they care about you or your health? unless you are mass producing in a facility designed for it what is the real value of having such a hazardous material like pure nic in your home?

just because you or I can make reasonable decisions that doesnt mean there isnt some dude somewhere with 500mg nic on the table and a toddler playing on the floor.

and thats just my opinion as my buddy Time has pointed out its not my decision luckily I could really kinda care less what other people do I mix my own if everyone else wants to play with 1000mg to sound cool thats fine with me
By the way, I've seen you share recipes with folks who love your ejuices. Huge respect from me for doing that!
 

Time

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Times reason for no regulations is that only 1 kid died from drinking 100mg so we should just let people do what they want.

Negative. Time's reason for no regulations is much simpler than that. I don't want to be punished for someone else mistake. Or, in this case, for a mistake that has yet to even happen. Your 100mg limit would not save all lives. It's the only thing nic related that's actually killed. Using your logic, to save lives the limit should be much less. Say, 24mg. Maybe the kid would have lived. But, you use 100mg so 100mg is acceptable to you, even though someone died.

It's easy to suggest regulation that doesn't effect you, eh? You didn't suggest a mg lower than what you use. You suggested a mg that other people might want to use. You don't use over 100mg and I doubt it is coincidental that it's the limit you would impose on others. Otherwise, since 100mg has killed, you would have suggested less. But, I digress.

My reason for no regulation is that I have hurt no one and don't deserve to be punished for someone else mistake. And while I'm quite sure that you wouldn't put it in such terms, the end result of such nanny regulation is that I am restricted and thus paying for someone else mistake and that is punishment.

And yes, I often speak up when people express an opinion that I should have restrictions placed on me. I think everybody should. I certainly have never proposed to place a restriction on you. It's not about respecting an opinion when that opinion is to apply restrictions to me.
 

AndriaD

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Negative. Time's reason for no regulations is much simpler than that. I don't want to be punished for someone else mistake. Or, in this case, for a mistake that has yet to even happen. Your 100mg limit would not save all lives. It's the only thing nic related that's actually killed. Using your logic, to save lives the limit should be much less. Say, 24mg. Maybe the kid would have lived. But, you use 100mg so 100mg is acceptable to you, even though someone died.

It's easy to suggest regulation that doesn't effect you, eh? You didn't suggest a mg lower than what you use. You suggested a mg that other people might want to use. You don't use over 100mg and I doubt it is coincidental that it's the limit you would impose on others. Otherwise, since 100mg has killed, you would have suggested less. But, I digress.

My reason for no regulation is that I have hurt no one and don't deserve to be punished for someone else mistake. And while I'm quite sure that you wouldn't put it in such terms, the end result of such nanny regulation is that I am restricted and thus paying for someone else mistake and that is punishment.

And yes, I often speak up when people express an opinion that I should have restrictions placed on me. I think everybody should. I certainly have never proposed to place a restriction on you. It's not about respecting an opinion when that opinion is to apply restrictions to me.

I agree 100% -- I don't think non-professionals have any business messing with anything over maybe 250mg -- but it's not my job to tell them they can't; I think Darwin should apply -- if you're too stupid to live, then you die. If you're too stupid to take proper care of your children, then they die, and you don't deserve them anyway. It's a hard world, which the nannies have been busy trying to pad the corners of for over a century, so that now we have all these special snowflakes who truly believe they're ENTITLED to a "safe space." They're only entitled to it if they can create it for themselves; it's not society's job to create it for them.

When you remove the large predators from an environment, deer run completely amok. When you remove every single threat and possible danger from the environment of humans, special snowflake entitled idiots run amok, and if some new risk or danger appears, they are sitting ducks. Recall how, historically, the native Americans were so absolutely wide-open to the many bacteria and viruses that the Europeans brought with them, to which the Europeans were largely resistant -- they were resistant because they were accustomed to those threats, and their immune systems had learned to more or less cope with them -- those native Americans, not having ever faced those microbes, were sitting ducks for them.

Strength comes from facing challenges, not from having every challenge removed.

Andria
 

Mykreign

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I agree 100% -- I don't think non-professionals have any business messing with anything over maybe 250mg -- but it's not my job to tell them they can't; I think Darwin should apply -- if you're too stupid to live, then you die. If you're too stupid to take proper care of your children, then they die, and you don't deserve them anyway. It's a hard world, which the nannies have been busy trying to pad the corners of for over a century, so that now we have all these special snowflakes who truly believe they're ENTITLED to a "safe space." They're only entitled to it if they can create it for themselves; it's not society's job to create it for them.

When you remove the large predators from an environment, deer run completely amok. When you remove every single threat and possible danger from the environment of humans, special snowflake entitled idiots run amok, and if some new risk or danger appears, they are sitting ducks. Recall how, historically, the native Americans were so absolutely wide-open to the many bacteria and viruses that the Europeans brought with them, to which the Europeans were largely resistant -- they were resistant because they were accustomed to those threats, and their immune systems had learned to more or less cope with them -- those native Americans, not having ever faced those microbes, were sitting ducks for them.

Strength comes from facing challenges, not from having every challenge removed.

Andria

I'll add another factor to this conversation, but first i'll say I don't care what anyone does as long as its not effecting me. Sell people pure nicotine for all I care. With that said, if we sold strong nicotine concentrate, say above 100mg, and someone that is "...too stupid to live..," gets a hold of it and someone does get hurt or die; It just give anti-vapors and BT more ammo for the government to come down even harder on vaping.

If there was a limit on the strength of nicotine that can be sold to the general public, there would be a far less chance of this happening.
 

AndriaD

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I'll add another factor to this conversation, but first i'll say I don't care what anyone does as long as its not effecting me. Sell people pure nicotine for all I care. With that said, if we sold strong nicotine concentrate, say above 100mg, and someone that is "...too stupid to live..," gets a hold of it and someone does get hurt or die; It just give anti-vapors and BT more ammo for the government to come down even harder on vaping.

If there was a limit on the strength of nicotine that can be sold to the general public, there would be a far less chance of this happening.

If we're going to limit things sold to the "general public" because of risk, why is there a gas station on every corner? Why are there fireworks for sale EVERYWHERE, for drunk people (who have HALF their usual intelligence, thx to the booze!) to play with on holidays? Why are knives standard kitchen equipment, and all kinds of bladed implements essential for yardwork sold in all the big box stores? Because the "general public" is not bright enough to handle ANY of those things -- if they WERE bright enough, there would be no need to put a big sticker on electric appliances about not dropping them into full bathtubs!

If one is not bright enough to do all that is necessary to protect one's own life and the lives of the children who depend on them... SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.

Andria
 

Mykreign

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If we're going to limit things sold to the "general public" because of risk, why is there a gas station on every corner? Why are there fireworks for sale EVERYWHERE, for drunk people (who have HALF their usual intelligence, thx to the booze!) to play with on holidays? Why are knives standard kitchen equipment, and all kinds of bladed implements essential for yardwork sold in all the big box stores? Because the "general public" is not bright enough to handle ANY of those things -- if they WERE bright enough, there would be no need to put a big sticker on electric appliances about not dropping them into full bathtubs!

If one is not bright enough to do all that is necessary to protect one's own life and the lives of the children who depend on them... SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.

Andria

I agree with everything you said, but unfortunately we don't live in a world like that. The vaping business is being attacked and some precaution wouldn't be a bad thing IMO. Are there more dangerous items in our households than vaping? Definitely, but money makes the world go round and BT doesnt want to lose it. So if they find a story that can slander vaping, they're going to do it.
 

Time

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I'll add another factor to this conversation, but first i'll say I don't care what anyone does as long as its not effecting me. Sell people pure nicotine for all I care. With that said, if we sold strong nicotine concentrate, say above 100mg, and someone that is "...too stupid to live..," gets a hold of it and someone does get hurt or die; It just give anti-vapors and BT more ammo for the government to come down even harder on vaping.

If there was a limit on the strength of nicotine that can be sold to the general public, there would be a far less chance of this happening.

I'm not sure what the difference is. Put restrictions on it now or the government will put restrictions on it later?

Either way, there would be restrictions. I've never been threatened by a person and decided to punch myself in the face so that person would not punch me in the face. :D

If I punch myself, I'm definately getting punched. If I wait, the other guy might not, usually doesn't, punch me at all.
 
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AndriaD

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I agree with everything you said, but unfortunately we don't live in a world like that. The vaping business is being attacked and some precaution wouldn't be a bad thing IMO. Are there more dangerous items in our households than vaping? Definitely, but money makes the world go round and BT doesnt want to lose it. So if they find a story that can slander vaping, they're going to do it.

I keep saying this and it keeps being totally ignored: not BT -- BP has a great deal more to lose, from vaping! Asthma, COPD, cancer, inflammatory disease of all kinds, SSRIs, etc etc etc etc -- PLUS, all the jobs of all the BP-suckups -- ALA, ACS, the "tobacco-free kids", etc etc etc... And then there's the gov't losing all that tax money, all that MSA money, all those tobacco bonds going belly-up.... BT's stake in the matter isn't even a FRACTION of BP's and the gov't's stake in it!

Andria
 

Mykreign

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I'm not sure what the difference is. Put restrictions on it now or the government will put restrictions on it later?

Either way, there would be restrictions. I've never been threatened by a person and decided to punch myself in the face so that person would not punch me in the face. :D

Yes there would be restrictions either way. 100mg is more than enough for anyone.

If action is taken because of someone getting hurt, they could ban nicotine sales altogether unless you have a commercial license.

Also there's a huge difference between a restriction set by the vape community or nicotine vendors and a restriction set by the government.



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Mykreign

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I keep saying this and it keeps being totally ignored: not BT -- BP has a great deal more to lose, from vaping! Asthma, COPD, cancer, inflammatory disease of all kinds, SSRIs, etc etc etc etc -- PLUS, all the jobs of all the BP-suckups -- ALA, ACS, the "tobacco-free kids", etc etc etc... And then there's the gov't losing all that tax money, all that MSA money, all those tobacco bonds going belly-up.... BT's stake in the matter isn't even a FRACTION of BP's and the gov't's stake in it!

Andria

Ahh yes...BP. The cure for cancer is out there...


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Time

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Yes there would be restrictions either way. 100mg is more than enough for anyone.

If action is taken because of someone getting hurt, they could ban nicotine sales altogether unless you have a commercial license.

Also there's a huge difference between a restriction set by the vape community or nicotine vendors and a restriction set by the government.



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There is a huge difference between self restrictions(vape community) and government restrictions. Self restriction is is guarrenteed if applied and government restrictions are only anticipated. If I punch myself in the face, I get punched in the face. If I don't, I might not get punched at all. ;)

I certainly don't pay more taxes than I'm supposed to because I think if I don't, the government will just raise taxes on me.

Doing something to yourself because you think the government might do it to you, is kinda silly.

Besides, what's the difference between a bunch of do gooders restricting me and the government restricting me? Am I supposed to feel better about the "vape community" placing restrictions on me?

US vendors don't have to sell anything they don't want. I'll just spend my money elsewhere.
 

Mykreign

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Self restriction only works if the person has a brain and knows what they're doing though. In America, people like that are becoming scarce.

I just don't want to see nicotine sales being banned. I guess I could stock up if I had to.

I just thought I'd bring up a possible outcome that could end DIY and some solutions to it.

Anyways, good talk.


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wllmc

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If you're too stupid to take proper care of your children, then they die, and you don't deserve them anyway.
this is the Time factor Im talking about. this mentality.

Yes there would be restrictions either way. 100mg is more than enough for anyone.

If action is taken because of someone getting hurt, they could ban nicotine sales altogether unless you have a commercial license.

Also there's a huge difference between a restriction set by the vape community or nicotine vendors and a restriction set by the government.



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my point exactly when I say one dumb ass can ruin it for us all. but who cares about those dumbass children anyway with the stupid parents they all deserve to die.. but this is a pointless battle since none of us can make the decision lol and you cant express an opinion with these 2 even when its not directed at them, its also pointless. they argue you can not tell them what to do and think as they tell you "whats right and best" .... the best thing is to just eat popcorn and watch Time get his feathers all worked up :popcorn:
 

Time

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Self restriction only works if the person has a brain and knows what they're doing though. In America, people like that are becoming scarce.

I agree. It's what I'll call, the Will factor. People rely on the government to keep them safe and can't think for themselves. Regulation breeds stupid people that have no fear because, the government would make it illegal if it was dangerous. ;)

You often see these people at Yellowstone park acting like the bison and bears are part of a petting zoo. The shock on their faces when the bison charges them is priceless.

Regulation has bred a population of adult children. Staying on that path with even more regulation isn't going to make them smarter.
 

Time

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and you cant express an opinion with these 2 even when its not directed at them,

Ah, but it is directed at me. Are you not proposing regulation that would directly effect me? You are.

You think I should just shut the fuck up and let you propose to regulate me? That's how oppression begins.

Somehow I think you'd say something if I proposed to take something from you even if I didn't name you directly. :)
 

AndriaD

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I agree. It's what I'll call, the Will factor. People rely on the government to keep them safe and can't think for themselves. Regulation breeds stupid people that have no fear because, the government would make it illegal if it was dangerous. ;)

You often see these people at Yellowstone park acting like the bison and bears are part of a petting zoo. The shock on their faces when the bison charges them is priceless.

Regulation has bred a population of adult children. Staying on that path with even more regulation isn't going to make them smarter.

It's actually the Institutionalization Syndrome --

From the wiki:

“In clinical and abnormal psychology, institutionalization or institutional syndrome refers to deficits or disabilities in social and life skills, which develop after a person has spent a long period living in mental hospitals, prisons, or other remote institutions. In other words, individuals in institutions may be deprived (whether unintentionally or not) of independence and of responsibility, to the point that once they return to "outside life" they are often unable to manage many of its demands; it has also been argued that institutionalized individuals become psychologically more prone to mental health problems.”


I started writing an essay on this very subject, inspired by the vapers who say that vaping needs "regulation"... but I got sidetracked by one thing or another... a new DIY recipe, vape porn, or possibly even "real life." I wrote the first paragraph, and couldn't quite figure out where to go from there.

"It seems to me that those vapers who argue for the necessity of “regulations” on vaping, are suffering this Institutional Syndrome. They have been coddled so extremely for so long by paternalistic institutions, they have become unable and/or unwilling to exercise discrimination, decision-making, or problem-solving for their own self-interest, but instead rely on those paternalistic institutions to “keep them safe,” despite clear evidence that the institutions so relied upon cannot provide and indeed, often have absolutely no genuine interest in providing the safety which is their ostensible and vaunted raison d’etre."

Andria

 

Time

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It's actually the Institutionalization Syndrome --

From the wiki:

“In clinical and abnormal psychology, institutionalization or institutional syndrome refers to deficits or disabilities in social and life skills, which develop after a person has spent a long period living in mental hospitals, prisons, or other remote institutions. In other words, individuals in institutions may be deprived (whether unintentionally or not) of independence and of responsibility, to the point that once they return to "outside life" they are often unable to manage many of its demands; it has also been argued that institutionalized individuals become psychologically more prone to mental health problems.”


I started writing an essay on this very subject, inspired by the vapers who say that vaping needs "regulation"... but I got sidetracked by one thing or another... a new DIY recipe, vape porn, or possibly even "real life." I wrote the first paragraph, and couldn't quite figure out where to go from there.

"It seems to me that those vapers who argue for the necessity of “regulations” on vaping, are suffering this Institutional Syndrome. They have been coddled so extremely for so long by paternalistic institutions, they have become unable and/or unwilling to exercise discrimination, decision-making, or problem-solving for their own self-interest, but instead rely on those paternalistic institutions to “keep them safe,” despite clear evidence that the institutions so relied upon cannot provide and indeed, often have absolutely no genuine interest in providing the safety which is their ostensible and vaunted raison d’etre."

Andria

Very well said.
 

Mykreign

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It's actually the Institutionalization Syndrome --

From the wiki:

“In clinical and abnormal psychology, institutionalization or institutional syndrome refers to deficits or disabilities in social and life skills, which develop after a person has spent a long period living in mental hospitals, prisons, or other remote institutions. In other words, individuals in institutions may be deprived (whether unintentionally or not) of independence and of responsibility, to the point that once they return to "outside life" they are often unable to manage many of its demands; it has also been argued that institutionalized individuals become psychologically more prone to mental health problems.”


I started writing an essay on this very subject, inspired by the vapers who say that vaping needs "regulation"... but I got sidetracked by one thing or another... a new DIY recipe, vape porn, or possibly even "real life." I wrote the first paragraph, and couldn't quite figure out where to go from there.

"It seems to me that those vapers who argue for the necessity of “regulations” on vaping, are suffering this Institutional Syndrome. They have been coddled so extremely for so long by paternalistic institutions, they have become unable and/or unwilling to exercise discrimination, decision-making, or problem-solving for their own self-interest, but instead rely on those paternalistic institutions to “keep them safe,” despite clear evidence that the institutions so relied upon cannot provide and indeed, often have absolutely no genuine interest in providing the safety which is their ostensible and vaunted raison d’etre."

Andria


You're blowing this whole thing out of proportion and need to calm down. Nobody is calling for regulation to keep them safe. Nobody here is suffering from institutionalization syndrome. We're simply trying to save vaping, specifically DIY. One bad story in the media can ruin it for everyone.

Correct me if I'm wrong but from your post, it's safe to assume that you think the people in this thread that say high strength nicotine should not be available lack social and life skills?

I didn't want to continue this conversation but you need to be corrected. You go from saying the parents deserve it if their kids die to saying people have a mental disability. It's fucked up.


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AndriaD

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You're blowing this whole thing out of proportion and need to calm down. Nobody is calling for regulation to keep them safe. Nobody here is suffering from institutionalization syndrome. We're simply trying to save vaping, specifically DIY. One bad story in the media can ruin it for everyone.

Correct me if I'm wrong but from your post, it's safe to assume that you think the people in this thread that say high strength nicotine should not be available lack social and life skills?

I didn't want to continue this conversation but you need to be corrected. You go from saying the parents deserve it if their kids die to saying people have a mental disability. It's fucked up.


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What's fucked up is for people to depend on the government to keep them safe by limiting/"regulating" everything, rather than imposing limitations on themselves, per their own abilities and understandings. I personally wouldn't use over 100mg, because my ability, understanding, and equipment are not up to what would be necessary to be safe with higher concentrations. However if a person does have the ability, understanding, and equipment to safely handle 500mg or 1000mg, then the gov't should butt the fuck out.

This is nearly identical to the resistance/amperage/battery safety situation; if we're going to build coils for ourselves, then it is ON US to test the resistance, and ensure that the battery(s) we're using can safely handle that resistance, by having sufficient CDR; and also that those who are going to routinely use and carry high-amp batteries do so safely, with intact battery wraps and battery boxes. We all laugh at those idiots who become the next "vaping is evil" headline by carrying 18650 batteries loose in their pockets with their coins and keys. It is not the fault of the batteries when that turns out to be a poor choice, and it is not the fault of the nicotine if someone doesn't treat it with the respect and caution it requires, and it's not the gov't's business to legislate or regulate either thing. I'm about tired of the gov't's proboscis inserting itself into every slightest aspect of my life, and I really don't understand those who want MORE gov't intrusion.

Andria
 

Mykreign

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What's fucked up is for people to depend on the government to keep them safe by limiting/"regulating" everything, rather than imposing limitations on themselves, per their own abilities and understandings. I personally wouldn't use over 100mg, because my ability, understanding, and equipment are not up to what would be necessary to be safe with higher concentrations. However if a person does have the ability, understanding, and equipment to safely handle 500mg or 1000mg, then the gov't should butt the fuck out.

This is nearly identical to the resistance/amperage/battery safety situation; if we're going to build coils for ourselves, then it is ON US to test the resistance, and ensure that the battery(s) we're using can safely handle that resistance, by having sufficient CDR; and also that those who are going to routinely use and carry high-amp batteries do so safely, with intact battery wraps and battery boxes. We all laugh at those idiots who become the next "vaping is evil" headline by carrying 18650 batteries loose in their pockets with their coins and keys. It is not the fault of the batteries when that turns out to be a poor choice, and it is not the fault of the nicotine if someone doesn't treat it with the respect and caution it requires, and it's not the gov't's business to legislate or regulate either thing. I'm about tired of the gov't's proboscis inserting itself into every slightest aspect of my life, and I really don't understand those who want MORE gov't intrusion.

Andria

Nobody said they wanted government regulation. So you're telling me, you would rather let them sell high strength nicotine to anyone and take the chance of the government taking action, like possibly banning nicotine sales rather than the vendors themselves limiting what strengths to sell to the public?

Either way, the personal attacks were uncalled for.


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AndriaD

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Nobody said they wanted government regulation. So you're telling me, you would rather let them sell high strength nicotine to anyone and take the chance of the government taking action, like possibly banning nicotine sales rather than the vendors themselves limiting what strengths to sell to the public?

Either way, the personal attacks were uncalled for.


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The point is that self-imposed regulations are not going to impede the gov't from imposing their own arbitrary and most likely imbecilic regs. The gov't will do whatever suits the gov't, regardless of any self-imposed regs or lack thereof. In many cases, I don't see things the way that @Time does, but in this case, he is absolutely right. and his analogy is right on the money: if a bully takes a notion to beat you up, slapping yourself silly isn't going to stop him -- in fact, he'll probably use your self-imposed confusion to his own benefit, making it much easier to beat you up than if you stood your ground or fought back. In this case, the gov't will say something like "Well, they think they ought to be limited to 100mg, so obviously it really needs to be one-quarter of that, just to be safe." :facepalm:

Andria
 

Time

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Nobody said they wanted government regulation. So you're telling me, you would rather let them sell high strength nicotine to anyone and take the chance of the government taking action, like possibly banning nicotine sales rather than the vendors themselves limiting what strengths to sell to the public?

Either way, the personal attacks were uncalled for.


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I've been on the forum for a long time. Back in the day, there were allot of these types of conversations about "self regulation". They were usually centered around juice vendors "labs", clean rooms and diecetyl. The "community" was regulating itself so the government wouldn't step in. I made the same points then. Well, all that ended when the FDA deeming regs came out. The FDA was going to regulate anyway. Thankfully, some of that has been postponed.

There is allot of misinformation on the internet. Most of it as related to vaping, is simple fear mongering. That has blown most of these conversations out of proportion. People still repeat the old myths. Pure nicotine has been available these last few years, people are using it and no one has been harmed by it. As I said in an earlier post, people have mixed and vaped pure nic. Despite what some folks claimed would happen, nobody died. The guy that did it posted on VU because his nic made him have coughing fits. He couldn't vape it. Another guy got pure nic on himself. Despite those claiming that getting a drop on you would kill you, he didn't die. He posted about it.

Self regulating didn't work, the FDA came out with the deeming regs anyway. The fearmongering, while well intentioned, isn't all true. Hell, the Russians and CIA would have a field day offing people with something that only one drop would kill you. Nicotine is readily available but there are no WMD's that use nicotine bombs. It simply is not as potent as some would have you believe.
 

whiteowl84

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What's wrong with 400mg? Or 1000mg?
If you've got 400mg just put 30ml if it in a bottle then add 90ml of base. Now it's 100mg.

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bobnat

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If I could buy 400mg, I most certainly would. I'm afraid of being t-boned by a Land Cruiser, not pouring liquid from one bottle to another.
 

iVapeDIY

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this is the Time factor Im talking about. this mentality. my point exactly when I say one dumb ass can ruin it for us all.
If there was a limit on the strength of nicotine that can be sold to the general public, there would be a far less chance of this happening.
IMHO, 100mg/ml (or the more popular 48mg/ml) is enough for most DIYers.
 
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