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Statements From FDA in NICOPURE® vs. FDA Lawsuit Confirm Next Generation Labs’ TFN NICOTINE® Is Not

5150sick

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Statements From FDA in NICOPURE® vs. FDA Lawsuit Confirm Next Generation Labs’ TFN NICOTINE® Is Not A Tobacco Product

http://www.globenewswire.com/news-r...bs-TFN-NICOTINE-Is-Not-A-Tobacco-Product.html

Please by no means take this as a commercial or personal endorsement of Next Generation Labs of their TFN (Tobacco Free Nicotine) as I personally think they are a bunch of weasels trying to get a monopoly on the US Nicotine Eliquid market.

If you do want to try some synthetic tobacco free nicotine then I would highly suggest getting it from one of their only competitors and a company that they would wish to not only silence but wipe of the market entirely if they could,

HiLIQ NTN (non tobacco nicotine) http://www.hiliq.com/ntn

Not only will they sell to a DIYer like you or me but they also do not require a MINIMUM order of $25,000 like the weasels at next gen:




What do you guys think of the situation?

Is the FDA just going to let TFN slide? Shit, if it's not a "tobacco product" then wouldn't there be no age limit as to who could purchase it?

Do you think they will peg it as a Drug like NRT and bring it under their authority anyway? - 5150
 

Rossum

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Do you think they will peg it as a Drug like NRT and bring it under their authority anyway?
Indeed, I think that is exactly what they intend to do, but the aim won't be to bring it under their authority, but to quash it.

Remember kids, the only reason vaping survived past 2010 was because it was declared to be a tobacco product and tobacco product were exempt from normal FDA regulation that applies to drugs.
 

AndriaD

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I think you're right, Rossum. They've been quashing that other smokable stuff for decades now, despite plenty of evidence that it's not nearly as harmful as, oh, alcohol for example, or SSRIs, for another excellent example. For which I think we must thank the Big Liquor lobby, as well as BP, since having that stuff legal would sure eat into both bottom lines. And as we all know... (say it with me)... IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! FUCK health, FUCK the public weal, FUCK truth, just HAIL THAT ALMIGHTY DOLLAR!

Andria
 

freemind

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@5150sick at 300 bucks a liter, I'll never be buying it from them. That's a completely stupid and ridiculous price.

If they ever get it down to under a hundred bucks, then maybe. NEVER, at their current pricing.
 

Rossum

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@5150sick at 300 bucks a liter, I'll never be buying it from them. That's a completely stupid and ridiculous price.

If they ever get it down to under a hundred bucks, then maybe. NEVER, at their current pricing.
IMO, price isn't really an issue. Put it in the right perspective, in other words, compare it to the cost of smoking rather than the cost regular nic, which is so cheap, it might as well be free.

A liter of 100mg base lasts the average vaper 3 years. So even at $300 a liter, that's $100 a year for nic. I used to spend $100 a week on cigarettes. So yeah, this stuff costs ~6 times as much as some regular nic, but it's still ~50 times cheaper than smoking.
 

freemind

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Engineered diamonds and cultured pearls are essentially the same as their natural counterparts, yet they are priced lower. People do not see the value.

NTN may be a comparable end product, but it is NOT more valuable than it's natural counterpart. You will not convince most people that there is enough value in it to pay 6 times the price for it. They are pricing themselves out of the market.

I would jump right on it, were it priced 80-90 dollars. At three hundred, I'll just point and laugh like most people will.
 

The Cromwell

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Indeed, I think that is exactly what they intend to do, but the aim won't be to bring it under their authority, but to quash it.

Remember kids, the only reason vaping survived past 2010 was because it was declared to be a tobacco product and tobacco product were exempt from normal FDA regulation that applies to drugs.
Yep if it is not a tobacco product then it is a drug and falls under their existing control.
 

Rossum

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NTN may be a comparable end product, but it is NOT more valuable than it's natural counterpart. You will not convince most people that there is enough value in it to pay 6 times the price for it. They are pricing themselves out of the market.
Actually, some people are big fans due to how clean it supposedly tastes and are willing to pay the premium for that.

Personally, I haven't tried it and don't intend to, mostly 'cause I already have a lifetime supply of NN stashed in my freezer. :)
 

freemind

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Actually, some people are big fans due to how clean it supposedly tastes and are willing to pay the premium for that.

Personally, I haven't tried it and don't intend to, mostly 'cause I already have a lifetime supply of NN stashed in my freezer. :)
I never said nobody would buy it. I said they priced themselves out of the market. The ONLY people buying it, won't buy enough to make it worth it to stock the Nic.

It's simply too expensive.

Add to that, that the FDA will take over it under "drug" headings, and either squash making it all together, or make it so expensive NO ONE will ever buy it.

Vaping is a niche market to begin with. DIY even smaller. You can buy any nic touted as "good/excellent/the best" for less than 100 bucks a liter. Until this bottle of nic comes with free handjobs, it isn't going to move.
 

AndriaD

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I never said nobody would buy it. I said they priced themselves out of the market. The ONLY people buying it, won't buy enough to make it worth it to stock the Nic.

It's simply too expensive.

Add to that, that the FDA will take over it under "drug" headings, and either squash making it all together, or make it so expensive NO ONE will ever buy it.

Vaping is a niche market to begin with. DIY even smaller. You can buy any nic touted as "good/excellent/the best" for less than 100 bucks a liter. Until this bottle of nic comes with free handjobs, it isn't going to move.

And those people always hollering about "clean" no-TH nicotine... I always wonder... did they smoke Carltons???

Andria
 

OBDave

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I'd like to see the price come down, but if it exempts me from FDA oversight I'm glad to pay the premium...beats the hell out of the registration cost that would put me right out of business.
 

Vaperyan

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Actually, NTN is selling well and has been receiving a lot of positive feedback. More and more people are getting and switching to the solution.
It was created and launched to accommodate the growing demands for Nicotine not made from tobacco leaves. It is an option. A new generation of nicotine which allows consumers to try a new feeling and sensation. There is still TDN available and it will be open to all who needs it. We just wanted to provide what people needs and its up to them what to use.

More and more Vendors are switching due to the observed good changes in their mixes and a lot of Vapers are paying the price for the goods that is worthy of it such as NTN.

Our NTN is complete with quality and purity certificates. Pricing is fair and is open to professional vapers above the qualified age group.

*Pricing is due to the time spent in manufacturing, cost on sources, talent and facility. It is fair priced. Pure and Clean. No tremendous MOQ and padded unnecessary value.

Thanks 5150 for the mention and I hope i am not breaking rules as I comment here. :)
 

freemind

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And you hit the nail on the head. The people buying from you are manufactures of juice, not really the DIY folks. When a vendor can charge 20+ dollars a 30 mil, they can easily afford to pay triple for nicotine. They can write it off as a business expense.

You already said your nicotine oxidizes like TDN, and I can see nothing different about yours, as opposed to a "premium" that costs about 100 dollars a liter. Clean is clean.

I, as a DIYer at home, like most others, will not pay 300 bucks a liter. Apples to apples, your price is ridiculously high. It is not the seller that determines a fair price. It's the consumer who does. So if you want to sell to people like me, you will have to get your price at or below a hundred dollars a liter before I will think about buying it.
 

AndriaD

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Well, you know, nicotine is found in a lot of different organic sources -- the ones we know best are tobacco, tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant... But there's a good reason why nicotine is usually derived from tobacco: it's the richest source, and therefore the most cost-efficient. It only makes sense to try to get whatever you're after, from the richest source of it. That keeps the cost down!

Creating it from molecules in a lab is absolutely the long hard expensive way to do it, and I really think it will become useless, since the FDA has no requirement whatever to allow it to exist at all -- it's just a drug at that point, not a "tobacco product." How do they treat drugs they don't like? They call them dangerous and get the DEA to put them on a schedule, so that simply possessing them is a high crime.

Andria
 

Rossum

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I, as a DIYer at home, like most others, will not pay 300 bucks a liter. Apples to apples, your price is ridiculously high. It is not the seller that determines a fair price. It's the consumer who does. So if you want to sell to people like me, you will have to get your price at or below a hundred dollars a liter before I will think about buying it.
$300 a liter nic is about 25 cents a day in nicotine costs to someone doing DIY. Can you get nic way cheaper than that? Sure, cheap nic might work out to 5 cents a day. But someone that actually likes the product better is not going to let 20 cents a day in extra costs dissuade them.
 

Vaperyan

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And you hit the nail on the head. The people buying from you are manufactures of juice, not really the DIY folks. When a vendor can charge 20+ dollars a 30 mil, they can easily afford to pay triple for nicotine. They can write it off as a business expense.

You already said your nicotine oxidizes like TDN, and I can see nothing different about yours, as opposed to a "premium" that costs about 100 dollars a liter. Clean is clean.

I, as a DIYer at home, like most others, will not pay 300 bucks a liter. Apples to apples, your price is ridiculously high. It is not the seller that determines a fair price. It's the consumer who does. So if you want to sell to people like me, you will have to get your price at or below a hundred dollars a liter before I will think about buying it.

Not entirely Juice manufacturers but also regular Vapers. As I said more and more people (vapers) are switching to the solution. We are DIY shop so basically our target is the same market. If you find this not suitable for your needs and budget we're ok with it. We don't push the product to everybody, as I said it is an option to other vapers. And based on our current sales, NTN is indeed making waves globally. Users are loving it. :)

Without even trying the product and concluding how's product and how it works as well as how's the people reception on it does not exactly speaks for it (NTN). I wish that those clients who have tried it could put up their feedback so people can have factual data and experience they could use as a reference to. :)


$300 a liter nic is about 25 cents a day in nicotine costs to someone doing DIY. Can you get nic way cheaper than that? Sure, cheap nic might work out to 5 cents a day. But someone that actually likes the product better is not going to let 20 cents a day in extra costs dissuade them.

Yes, Rossum. People differs in taste, preference, and lifestyle including how they're doing things which include Vaping and DIYing. So NTN comes as an option. It may be an expensive option but it depends on one's needs and requirement.
 

freemind

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Not entirely Juice manufacturers but also regular Vapers. As I said more and more people (vapers) are switching to the solution. We are DIY shop so basically our target is the same market. If you find this not suitable for your needs and budget we're ok with it. We don't push the product to everybody, as I said it is an option to other vapers. And based on our current sales, NTN is indeed making waves globally. Users are loving it. :)

Without even trying the product and concluding how's product and how it works as well as how's the people reception on it does not exactly speaks for it (NTN). I wish that those clients who have tried it could put up their feedback so people can have factual data and experience they could use as a reference to. :)

IF your products were so great, people WOULD be bragging about it. It's pretty obvious from the lack of chatter about your product, there isn't much desire for it. This form has many threads devoted to products people LOVE.

Me, I'll keep buying the stuff that is priced reasonably. You keep doing your things, and I'll keep doing mine (and I'll keep my money in my pocket, thanks.)
 

AndriaD

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IF your products were so great, people WOULD be bragging about it. It's pretty obvious from the lack of chatter about your product, there isn't much desire for it. This form has many threads devoted to products people LOVE.

Me, I'll keep buying the stuff that is priced reasonably. You keep doing your things, and I'll keep doing mine (and I'll keep my money in my pocket, thanks.)

I personally want my nicotine to grab me by the throat and chant (a la Black Sabbath) I... AM... NICOTINE! :giggle:

Andria
 

Vaperyan

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obvious from the lack of chatter about your product, there isn't much desire for it. This form has many threads devoted to products people LOVE.
IF your products were so great, people WOULD be bragging about it. It's pretty obvious from the lack of chatter about your product, there isn't much desire for it. This form has many threads devoted to products people LOVE.

Me, I'll keep buying the stuff that is priced reasonably. You keep doing your things, and I'll keep doing mine (and I'll keep my money in my pocket, thanks.)

It will take time, It is just launched a month a go and people just starting to use :) On the other hand, if you may read up our thread on our forum, you can see the hype for NTN :) VU hoping to finally have the reviews come in soon.

Yes, correct, perhaps you are not the target market, but for talking about it, thank you :)

Don't forget that TDN is also mass provided by HiLIQ anywhere in the globe. So, should you need a well priced nicotine base, feel free to let me know Free mind :)
 

Barbara E.

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If this TFN (tobacco free nicotine) allowed a manufacturer to sidestep the FDA regs, price basically doesn't matter. Heck, nicotine is just a small fraction of the cost involved with eliquids, the flavorings are much more.

But an individual making eliquids for themselves doesn't have to worry about the regs because they don't apply to DIY-ers. So he/she has no reason to switch to tobacco-free-nicotine (assuming they are happy with their current nicotine).

Totally different markets.
 

Barbara E.

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What I would really like to see - even more than synthetic nicotine - is nicotine derived from other natural sources ( e.g. eggplant).

I don't think the FDA will let synthetic nicotine slide by their regulations. They will say it's a synthetic form of a tobacco product. But I think they would have a harder time doing that with eggplant-derived nicotine.
 

The Cromwell

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What I would really like to see - even more than synthetic nicotine - is nicotine derived from other natural sources ( e.g. eggplant).

I don't think the FDA will let synthetic nicotine slide by their regulations. They will say it's a synthetic form of a tobacco product. But I think they would have a harder time doing that with eggplant-derived nicotine.
I think they will regulate it as a drug. What the set out to do origionally but it was declared a tobacco product. Since it was derived from tobacco.
 

Barbara E.

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I think they will regulate it as a drug. What the set out to do origionally but it was declared a tobacco product. Since it was derived from tobacco.

I don't know - they (the FDA) was shut down once already (classifying nicotine as a drug). That would have to be overturned. And declaring eggplant-derived-nicotine to be a tobacco product would open a huge can of worms.

Of course, I am thinking about this logically which has no bearing on what the FDA will do.
 

The Cromwell

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I don't know - they (the FDA) was shut down once already (classifying nicotine as a drug). That would have to be overturned. And declaring eggplant-derived-nicotine to be a tobacco product would open a huge can of worms.

Of course, I am thinking about this logically which has no bearing on what the FDA will do.
Yep probably no impact in the overall screwing we will get.
 

Whiskey

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Wonder if that means if they do classify it as a drug(nicotine), will you need to get a prescription for a pack of smokes too?
 

Rossum

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I don't know - they (the FDA) was shut down once already (classifying nicotine as a drug). That would have to be overturned. And declaring eggplant-derived-nicotine to be a tobacco product would open a huge can of worms..
I don't think so. Nictotine that's made from tobacco is a tobacco product and can only be regulated as such.

Nicotine that's made obtained from any other source (doesn't matter whether it's synthetic or extracted from eggplant) doesn't have any such protection and the FDA can classify it however it wants.
 

Rossum

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Wonder if that means if they do classify it as a drug(nicotine), will you need to get a prescription for a pack of smokes too?
I don't think so. Again, tobacco and tobacco products are treated differently than other drugs under statutory law. The FDA had no power to regulate them at all until the Tobacco Control Act around 2009, and their powers when it comes to tobacco-derived nicotine are still somewhat limited compared to other drugs.

The catch is that nicotine produced in any manner other than derived from tobacco is not subject to those limitations and can be treated completely differently by the FDA if they choose to. They could outright ban it. They could subject it to the New Drug Application process, which is even tougher and more expensive than a PMTA. Or they could just treat it the same as nicotine that's derived from tobacco. But I bet the moment that someone files and wins a suit that claims it isn't a tobacco product, the FDA will do something. The question is what?
 

Barbara E.

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But synthetic nicotine and/or eggplant-derived-nicotine (which I'm not sure even exists) are important in that they buy us *time*. And the more time goes on, the more positive news regarding ecigs comes to light.
 

AndriaD

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But synthetic nicotine and/or eggplant-derived-nicotine (which I'm not sure even exists) are important in that they buy us *time*. And the more time goes on, the more positive news regarding ecigs comes to light.

That would only matter if the FDA was actually answerable to *the public* -- currently they seem to be answerable only to BP, and somewhat to Congress, and somewhat more to the White House. What The People want is totally irrelevant to them. We matter less to them than the shit they scrape off their shoes after congregating with BP.

Andria
 

freemind

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But synthetic nicotine and/or eggplant-derived-nicotine (which I'm not sure even exists) are important in that they buy us *time*. And the more time goes on, the more positive news regarding ecigs comes to light.

There will be NO positive news coming out about E-cigs. The UK has already done the studies and shown them in positive light.

In the US, it's about tax and regulation. The FDA WILL control nicotine from now on. And while I don't like it, if they are going to control tobacco derived nicotine, they ARE going to control ANY nicotine.

Our time was up when the FDA decided to get involved. The current administration isn't going to change it, and neither will the next. Pence is anti-vaping.
 

cepage1ca

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Why would anyone in there right mind want to put another synthetic product in their body. Haven't we learned yet that synthetic products are what is causing a lot of the medical problems we have today. Oh wait they will come up with another synthetic to cure it so no worries.

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