Dumm question about the Noisy Cricket

Dumm question about the Noisy Cricket

I would not have bought this exept it went on sale for $5 and free shipping
I am a MTL Toodle Puffer and I know this mod was not designed for this.

But is there anyway of taming this thing down so I can use atty's like Kayfuns and other single coil atty's ?

I uasually vape at 3.7 volts or about 12 watts

Thanks Larry

Not sure that KF has enough space for that single coil but I am sure that KF doesn't have a sufficient juice supply for that imaginary coil even if you magically put it in.
Why would you use high power device for MTL low wattage Vape? It runs at 7.4Volt+ to begin with, it is not meant for low power apps.

yes its possible
http://www.steam-engine.org/
so at the max volts this thing puts out start sat 8.4 volts
to get that to fire only 12 watts
you need a 5.88 ish ohm coil
so you wrap 36ga kanthal a1 on a 2mm mandrel about 6 and a half wraps

now the question is can your tank handle that coil and what will teh ramp up time be and will it even taste good like that etc is a whole different question

I'm using my cricket now, I couldn't imagine using it as a mtl... but if you ordered the fat daddy safety upgrade you'd get a handy little single 18650 mod out out of the deal. May be more appropriate for your needs

The wattage pretty much has to be higher. It will be a much bigger coil - we're looking at 4 times the power per ohm, so a coil that generates 12w isn't going to be enough unless you build with human-hair-fine wire. Elsewise, you're going to wind up with a gigantic coil that doesn't heat up effectively by shooting for the wattage you're used to. You need to shoot much, much higher in the wattage to get a similar vape. If done right, you will have similar temperature, but likely more flavor, texture and vapor production because of the extra mass. You will need a bit more airflow, but I think you should be able to stay in the MTL range.

The balance of power and mass has to change to suit the power source. The principals remain the same, but the paradigm is completely different in terms of current draw and voltage push. Relative to mass, they need to be different to get the heating properties you're used to.

For instance, on a parallel mech, I vape at 90w-100w for my wide-open RDA's. On the cricket, I can go as high as 170w for a comparable vape. No, seriously. That's doable. The power to mass ratios really can be THAT different. And then on the flipside, I'm currently running an 80w build on my cricket that also compares to the 90w-100w build.

So it's not always as simple as it seems. You can approach this in a number of ways. We're gonna have to try and look beyond the watts, here.

Personally, I haven't mtl'd since I had a kanger t3, but I do think you can mtl on the cricket with the right wire and the right single coil. The proper balance has to be there somewhere.

But in order to work that out, we need to know what the specs on your typical builds are currently. From there, it's easy enough to calculate-out an 8v-compatible equivalent, hopefully with similar flux and capacity, if not different mass.

Also, what atty system(s) is/are we working with here?

I'm really curious about how this might work out... ...I don't think this has ever been attempted before lol. If it works, the battery life should be badass! I'm totally game for this. Should be a fun learning experience!

Replace one of the batts with a dummy....Presto! 4.2 volt Not so noisy.....

I think it may be possible, but could take a lot of fiddling.

In using my NC, I find that not only is the resistance important, but also sheer coil surface area. This can enable me to use some pretty hefty coils, and they heat almost instantly. However, using a high ohm coil, like a single 5/6 wrap 28g/38/ clapton (~1.3ohms) just is too much. It heats up too quick for me and gets real rowdy, real fast.

However, if I use dual 7/8 wrap of the same wire (~.9ohms), it ends up being a wonderful vape. Airflow is also a huge contributing factor, which may be an issue for MTL.

I think the coil mass and resistance could be balanced out, but airflow may be the difficult factor to dial in and still keep the draw restrictive enough for MTL.

No KF's on the NC. NC push out too many volts for it. I would not suggest it and the vape would be way too hot, even with a wide series build, it might not even fit. Too many reasons not to use KF's on the NC's.

gimmelapdance said:

No KF's on the NC. NC push out too many volts for it. I would not suggest it and the vape would be way too hot, even with a wide series build, it might not even fit. Too many reasons not to use KF's on the NC's.

Click to expand...

I think that by the time we got it to work, it would be modified to the point that it was no longer really a KF, and probably not even in the MTL ballpark.

That said, id be extremely interested if a clever, enterprising individual got close.

I think the kayfun would be pretty tricky, haha. I bet there's a way. I just can't figure it out because I have no idea what a standard 12w kayfun build is like, mass-wise. I imagine it's really small. Low heat flux and capacity, for sure. But the numbers can serve as a guide to strike a similar heat-flux/capacity/mass balance to that of a more 'boring' kayfun build. Why not? All of these things can be calculated-out. And from there, practical methods for extrapolating them up to 8v can be devised.

Perhaps the size will be where the hard wall is... ...depends on how hard it is to work with ultra-fine wire.

Twisting it might work for heft and stability. A clapton as fine as bare 28g, maybe? Fused or twisted core, even? That can probably be done. I've done claptons that fine for helix claptons before. It's easy to freehand. It would soak-up more power/heat, not draw too much more, and not take up a whole lot of space.

Maybe a series dual coil is the ticket... ...or maybe a series dual twisted-core 40/34 clapton?

I dunno. Hard to come up with stuff not knowing what usually works in a kayfun...

More 'current' mtl devices could probably do it more easily. Something like a goblin or any old closed-off sub-ohm tank with a standard drip tip would most likely work well enough. In fact, that's probably the best route since you have the chamber space to accommodate larger coils, but you can still have the airflow of an MTL. A low enough heat flux should keep the temperature reasonable without too much extra airflow. It can be bigger and also slower to compensate and run cool to moderate across longer toots.

I dunno, spitballing here.

NC with KF is the welcome to burning coils flavored juice.

robot zombie said:

I think the kayfun would be pretty tricky, haha. I bet there's a way. I just can't figure it out because I have no idea what a standard 12w kayfun build is like, mass-wise.

Click to expand...

28 gauge A1 Kanthol, 7-8 wrap micro coil on a 2mm drill bit, if I remember correctly was around .8Ω - 1Ω on my Russian 91% with my Provari at around 3.2 volts. That was my ideal best flavor build for the Kayfun, 7-8 wraps covered the bottom airflow hole, which you want to do for better flavor. But, anywhere from .8Ω to 1.5Ω was best for it, lower builds sacrificed the flavor department. You just want enough wraps to cover the airflow hole in the KF deck, coil centered in the middle for a solid, consistent hit, and performance. I experimented with even lower Ω and less wraps, it just didn't well with it.

To the topic of NC's and atomizers, I only use RDAs on my NC's, never used a tank or RTA on it. Not saying you can't, I'm sure you could, but I haven't felt the need to use a tank and RDAs give me the best flavor > any current tank out atm. I have 2, each with different RDAs and builds, all have generous (protruding) 510 pins and are safe to use with hybrid mods. Good batteries also go a long way for performance on the NC's too.

The piece on the left makes everything hybrid friendly, has fins to reduce heat transfer and adds another connection to the circuit which also adds a little extra voltage drop.
The piece on the right is a dummy cell, turns any series mech into a single cell mech.
With one or both of these you can do business at low watts with the cricket.
Edit: sorry for sideways pics, i keep forgetting.
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Tuluum said:

I think that by the time we got it to work, it would be modified to the point that it was no longer really a KF, and probably not even in the MTL ballpark.

That said, id be extremely interested if a clever, enterprising individual got close.

Click to expand...

It would be interesting to see that KF built. Limitation is in the tiny deck and equally tiny juice and air supply. Single coil only, is a limitation as well since all that pover would be going to a single very small coil.
528 Custom Monster (KF) would have sufficient supply of juice and air, but that is highly modified variant of KF that is not MTL anymore. Looking forward seeing it happened

Well, after playing around with SE, I have some ideas. Thanks for that information, @gimmelapdance. I just needed something that performs competently as a reference.

Not having much luck finding something quite like that it at 8.4v. Claptons are probably going to be necessary to get the mass and heat aligned. They help a lot when all coils generate 4 times the power. No matter how thin the wire or how high you build to make up for that, the balance is still just as far off.

I'm having trouble keeping a coil with enough mass-to-power under 10 wraps and 3mm, which I assume are reasonable max dimensions. Honestly, I'm just trying to picture some builds next to the one in that sweet spot and extrapolate something with comparable objective characteristics from it.


Right... ...so the benchmark will be a 1-ohm 28g coil firing at 3.2v which generates 10w. I'm assuming that @LarryPer123 is running something pretty similar. Heat flux is 178 mW/mm². Capacity is 14.77 mJ/K. Very small, fast, and cool build.

First up is a twisted 34g clapton with a 38g or 36g outer. 8 full wraps @ 3mm calculates to roughly 3.3 ohms, delivering ~19w on the cricket. Heat flux is 206 mW/mm². Total heat capacity of the core is 12.06 mJ/K. The core itself will thus heat up a little quicker due to the slightly lower mass and greater heat energy, but once claptoned, the balance should be closer to the benchmark.

You could also do a single-core 30g clapton. 9 full wraps @ 3mm calculates to 3.1 ohms, delivering ~20w. Flux is a significantly higher 230 mW/mm², but the capacity goes up to 18.11 mJ/K... ...highest mass of the bunch, so the temperature will not necessarily be much higher in spite of the extra heat energy, especially when claptoned with 38g or 40g - the outer wrap should sufficiently spread-out the excess heat. The only problem is that this one might be a little too big.


Just a thought... ...maybe it would be better to capitalize on as much airflow and space around the coil as possible, perhaps by raising the coil or mounting vertically. The coils I've come up with should innately produce more flavor and vapor, but they also produce a bit more power and heat relative to their (larger) size. They could probably use less restricted airflow and extra space more than they could a heat/texture/flavor boost.

But I digress... ...kayfun coil positioning is beyond my experience. I just wonder if raising the coil or mounting vertically might be the way to go, here.

Also to consider here is that claptons have more efficient cooling because of how juice behaves around them. They will not heat-up as readily as a bare coil of the same mass with the same amount of heat energy traveling through it. They almost plateau sometimes. The 3mm diameter will also aid in juice distribution and heat dispersion. The math can't predict how things like this will impact performance, though. Just gotta pray on it.

So that positioning thing could go either way. *shrugs*


Shots in the dark from someone who exclusively uses RDA's at high wattage, of course. Whether or not they're good builds, I have no idea, but I'm fairly sure they will at least work. Probably better to just use the dummy-cell.

EDIT: Forgot the kayfun uses full wraps, so the numbers will be slightly skewed. Shouldn't make a huge difference. It's all relative calculations anyway, so the comparisons should still stand.

I've been vaping a kayfun for years. The best performance I've gotten uses a 2 ohm coil and 6 volts. Trying to get a build that performs well with series voltage is a waste of time. You would need wire with higher resistance per inch than kanthal. The chamber size, wicking ability and airflow capacity just aren't there.

martnargh said:

The piece on the left makes everything hybrid friendly, has fins to reduce heat transfer and adds another connection to the circuit which also adds a little extra voltage drop.
The piece on the right is a dummy cell, turns any series mech into a single cell mech.
With one or both of these you can do business at low watts with the cricket.
Edit: sorry for sideways pics, i keep forgetting.
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Thanks
where did you get the dummy cell?

martnargh said:

The piece on the left makes everything hybrid friendly, has fins to reduce heat transfer and adds another connection to the circuit which also adds a little extra voltage drop.
The piece on the right is a dummy cell, turns any series mech into a single cell mech.
With one or both of these you can do business at low watts with the cricket.
Edit: sorry for sideways pics, i keep forgetting.
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

LarryPer123 said:

Thanks
where did you get the dummy cell?

Click to expand...

It's rather a waste to put a dummy in a series mod, pretty much defeats the entire purpose. If you only want to run a single battery get a tube mod.

Series mods you build high with a lot of wire, I've got the VCP Big Pig to run my 30mm atty's on, lots of room for lots of wire and it provides a great Vape. I have also built for my Noisy Cricket 30x2/36 fused clapton's and ohm out around 1.1 -1.2 ohms, that will tame it down a bit.

Sweet spot for me with series mod's around around 0.8 ohms fused claptons. But with the size of the NC you're limited to 22mm atty's with a lot of build room like a Velocity deck or postless. As I said series mods you need to build high with lots of wire, you're pushing over 8 volts. If you want to know what it'll be like on the Cricket, put a device on a regulated mod and crank it up to over 8 volts.

r055co said:

It's rather a waste to put a dummy in a series mod, pretty much defeats the entire purpose. If you only want to run a single battery get a tube mod.

Series mods you build high with a lot of wire, I've got the VCP Big Pig to run my 30mm atty's on, lots of room for lots of wire and it provides a great Vape. I have also built for my Noisy Cricket 30x2/36 fused clapton's and ohm out around 1.1 -1.2 ohms, that will tame it down a bit.

Sweet spot for me with series mod's around around 0.8 ohms fused claptons. But with the size of the NC you're limited to 22mm atty's with a lot of build room like a Velocity deck or postless. As I said series mods you need to build high with lots of wire, you're pushing over 8 volts. If you want to know what it'll be like on the Cricket, put a device on a regulated mod and crank it up to over 8 volts.

Click to expand...

Youre right in my opinion ive never used it past the day i used it to see if it actually works, but its an option.
All my series mechs i use for violent vaping, .3-.4... heavy pulls... heavy plumes.
If youre into kayfun type of vaping... i wouldnt even bother with a series mech tbh.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

martnargh said:

Youre right in my opinion ive never used it past the day i used it to see if it actually works, but its an option.
All my series mechs i use for violent vaping, .3-.4... heavy pulls... heavy plumes.
If youre into kayfun type of vaping... i wouldnt even bother with a series mech tbh.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

This is where the upgrade kit comes in handy, the kit comes with a copper tube that you can use like a SMPL mod. I really enjoy mine and actually use it rather often. So cheap that if it ever gets lost or jacked O'well

It's the one in the middle with the heat sink, I usually run heat sinks with any hybrid connection.

robot zombie said:

Well, after playing around with SE, I have some ideas. Thanks for that information, @gimmelapdance. I just needed something that performs competently as a reference.

Not having much luck finding something quite like that it at 8.4v. Claptons are probably going to be necessary to get the mass and heat aligned. They help a lot when all coils generate 4 times the power. No matter how thin the wire or how high you build to make up for that, the balance is still just as far off.

I'm having trouble keeping a coil with enough mass-to-power under 10 wraps and 3mm, which I assume are reasonable max dimensions. Honestly, I'm just trying to picture some builds next to the one in that sweet spot and extrapolate something with comparable objective characteristics from it.


Right... ...so the benchmark will be a 1-ohm 28g coil firing at 3.2v which generates 10w. I'm assuming that @LarryPer123 is running something pretty similar. Heat flux is 178 mW/mm². Capacity is 14.77 mJ/K. Very small, fast, and cool build.

First up is a twisted 34g clapton with a 38g or 36g outer. 8 full wraps @ 3mm calculates to roughly 3.3 ohms, delivering ~19w on the cricket. Heat flux is 206 mW/mm². Total heat capacity of the core is 12.06 mJ/K. The core itself will thus heat up a little quicker due to the slightly lower mass and greater heat energy, but once claptoned, the balance should be closer to the benchmark.

You could also do a single-core 30g clapton. 9 full wraps @ 3mm calculates to 3.1 ohms, delivering ~20w. Flux is a significantly higher 230 mW/mm², but the capacity goes up to 18.11 mJ/K... ...highest mass of the bunch, so the temperature will not necessarily be much higher in spite of the extra heat energy, especially when claptoned with 38g or 40g - the outer wrap should sufficiently spread-out the excess heat. The only problem is that this one might be a little too big.


Just a thought... ...maybe it would be better to capitalize on as much airflow and space around the coil as possible, perhaps by raising the coil or mounting vertically. The coils I've come up with should innately produce more flavor and vapor, but they also produce a bit more power and heat relative to their (larger) size. They could probably use less restricted airflow and extra space more than they could a heat/texture/flavor boost.

But I digress... ...kayfun coil positioning is beyond my experience. I just wonder if raising the coil or mounting vertically might be the way to go, here.

Also to consider here is that claptons have more efficient cooling because of how juice behaves around them. They will not heat-up as readily as a bare coil of the same mass with the same amount of heat energy traveling through it. They almost plateau sometimes. The 3mm diameter will also aid in juice distribution and heat dispersion. The math can't predict how things like this will impact performance, though. Just gotta pray on it.

So that positioning thing could go either way. *shrugs*


Shots in the dark from someone who exclusively uses RDA's at high wattage, of course. Whether or not they're good builds, I have no idea, but I'm fairly sure they will at least work. Probably better to just use the dummy-cell.

EDIT: Forgot the kayfun uses full wraps, so the numbers will be slightly skewed. Shouldn't make a huge difference. It's all relative calculations anyway, so the comparisons should still stand.

Click to expand...

Appreciate it @robot zombie. Nice info! Your detailed and elaborate testing & calculations deserves a well-rounded..


For 2 years straight (in my early years of vaping back in '12 & '13), that particular build I posted above kept me satisfied for my MTL vaping experience (closest to a marlboro menthol throat hit), it also gave me the best flavor for the KF/Russian as I experimented with tons (literally) of different builds; different wires on different sizes with different coils and different devices. Experimenting is always fun, one of the things I like to do when I'm bored, why I enjoy this hobby/lifestyle so much. I actually still use my Kebo Russian 91% and Provari to this day, both obviously great products and are in like new condition, so they money paid for itself, authentic > clones, unparalleled quality, metals used, machining tolerances, etc., they still both worth like new, used them as adv daily bangers back in the day for many years. Now, I prefer an Petri/Tugboat, one of my NCs for my adv everyday. I only use the KF/Russian at work, it doesn't bother the people around me with plumes and smell. My 2 NC's and my other higher end devices I keep at home and in my car.

Also, finally got my hands on KF5, shipped to me earlier this week, superb flavor as always, love the airflow (Petri/Tugboat styled, my fav airflows btw). Took some searching for me to get as it was sold out my at regular online resources. I will say this, not as good as the original KF/Russian for the MTL experience, but for the regular lung hits.. it's actually one nicest, cleanest, well rounded, complex juice can taste many flavors you might've missed on other RTAs, even some RDAs. Well worth the 12000 pennies spent. I know it'll still be in this great quality like now, for many years to come. Would've loved to paid a little lower price tho, $70 - maybe $90 tops, that's more reasonable IMO, paying for the name. Only bought out of spur of the moment and couldn't find an original authentic KF5 at the time.

gimmelapdance said:

Appreciate it @robot zombie. Nice info! Your detailed and elaborate testing & calculations deserves a well-rounded..

Click to expand...

Well thank you, but don't flatter me too much. It was just a little thought exercise. It's fun to see how you can make the numbers work for you under less-than-intuitive constraints... ...kinda try to come with builds that aren't supposed to be possible. Besides, it's good to test what you know sometimes. For all I know, these calculations could be worthless!

Maybe it seems elaborate, but it's actually a pretty simple analysis based on very simple physics. Steam engine provides you with more info about coils than I think people realize. Most people only see power, but steam engine also factors mass. It tells you what the mass/surface area is, how fast the heat moves across it and how much of it there is at x wattage - basically the most vital things for determining a coil's base performance. Seems trivial, but it isn't. It tells you pretty much exactly how the coil will run.

Very handy for mechs, when you have to tailor a coil's other attributes to the resistance and the power it allows. If you plug-in the numbers correctly, you can always come up with a coil that meets your power-source's requirements and has the surface-area/heating properties you're shooting for. Makes choosing gauges a breeze.

The only things it can't account for are wicking, chamber space and airflow volume/layout, which to be fair, matter just as much. Theory can't replace experience with the actual setup. It's far from a complete approach. You can generally trust the numbers, but they're not perfect and there are hard physical limits to what can actually be done.

I mean, you can still come up with a coil that performs in any certain way easily enough, provided you have a known coil with the desired traits to reference. When you can't match a coil to a device, simply match a coil to a coil and extrapolate over to the device.


That's how I learned about how coils work. I didn't like feeling like I was trying to pull good performance out of thin air. I wanted to understand the math and physics behind it in a practical way, so I've often run the numbers on my builds and tweaked the stats individually to see how they translate. I pull the numbers on new experiments and compare them to known coils, too. Just constant comparison. I actually keep a handwritten log of the important ones.

You can learn a lot by getting into the habit of taking a few minutes to analyze what you're doing. Saves a lot of time in the long run. You ultimately get to the point where you can literally dial-in a build and it just works right the first time... ...and if not the first time, then after a second try with minor tweaks. Most of the time, the numbers alone can get you close.

For the types of vapes I like, I don't need the numbers anymore, but being able to interpret the numbers still comes in handy. Having math to go by saves a lot of time when you're working in a zone you're not so familiar with, like I am right now! XD


But yeah, I get where you're coming from in those other two paragraphs. Some people watch TV as their after-work pastime. I play with coils, atties and mods. I like to switch stuff around just to see what changes and really isolate what goes into what gets me what I'm after, just so I can find it anywhere I go. I do stuff like this because it simplifies playing with different gear and opens doors to further experimentation.

In reality, I found my ideal configurations a long time ago - my main setups never change, but I still keep going. It's not healthy.