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Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin

Calista

Member For 3 Years
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I stumbled upon Vapor Shark's site and the testing they've had done on tons of juices. Now I'm trying to stick with juice without the three items in the title. I've contacted a few companies that I cannot locate a lab report on.

Pax is one of the companies I've contacted as I was able to quit smoking using the Juul. I was told that the companies they get their flavorings from have been told to not use diacetyl and acetyl propionyl. When I wrote again asking about acetoin, I was told that they do not have permission to give out their proprietary ingredients list. I responded that I was concerned about a dangerous chemical, not asking for their proprietary ingredients. Again, I was told that they can't give me that information.

To me, this means that the juice does contain acetoin and they're refusing to disclose this information. Scary, huh? THIS is one of the reasons the FDA wants to have laws concerning juices. As of right now, they could be putting arsenic in the juice and they don't have to tell us.
 

Jimi

Diamond Contributor
Member For 5 Years
I stumbled upon Vapor Shark's site and the testing they've had done on tons of juices. Now I'm trying to stick with juice without the three items in the title. I've contacted a few companies that I cannot locate a lab report on.

Pax is one of the companies I've contacted as I was able to quit smoking using the Juul. I was told that the companies they get their flavorings from have been told to not use diacetyl and acetyl propionyl. When I wrote again asking about acetoin, I was told that they do not have permission to give out their proprietary ingredients list. I responded that I was concerned about a dangerous chemical, not asking for their proprietary ingredients. Again, I was told that they can't give me that information.

To me, this means that the juice does contain acetoin and they're refusing to disclose this information. Scary, huh? THIS is one of the reasons the FDA wants to have laws concerning juices. As of right now, they could be putting arsenic in the juice and they don't have to tell us.
This is why I DIY and only use flavoring that discloses if they use the badies or not
 

Synphul

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I agree, it's scary. Then again I think the fda is a bit of a false security blanket. People think well if it's fda approved I'm good to go. After all they're all about extensive testing and studies right? Then you find nice little gems like this one -

"According to a scientist for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Avandia is linked to as many as 100,000 heart attacks. Clinical studies show that the drug increases the risk of heart attack by 43 percent and can double the risk of heart failure after one year of treatment."
https://www.drugwatch.com/avandia/lawsuit.php

So what gives? I mean they obviously had to approve the drug before it was allowed to be given to the public. So did they not test it? Give big pharma a free pass until issues cropped up? What about all the other multibillion dollar lawsuits of hundreds of other drugs they've 'approved' and deemed safe for the public. But by all means, they'll be sure to protect us from vaping hazards I'm sure. They've done such a bang up job keeping the public 'safe' prior to vaping.

I'm not saying it's not good to be aware of play it safe, that's common sense. If the fda worked like they should in theory and kept us safe it might be different but it's nothing more than a black hole for tax dollars, imposing regulations that create a stream of forced revenue under the guise of safety provisions.
 

Jimi

Diamond Contributor
Member For 5 Years
I agree, it's scary. Then again I think the fda is a bit of a false security blanket. People think well if it's fda approved I'm good to go. After all they're all about extensive testing and studies right? Then you find nice little gems like this one -

"According to a scientist for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Avandia is linked to as many as 100,000 heart attacks. Clinical studies show that the drug increases the risk of heart attack by 43 percent and can double the risk of heart failure after one year of treatment."
https://www.drugwatch.com/avandia/lawsuit.php

So what gives? I mean they obviously had to approve the drug before it was allowed to be given to the public. So did they not test it? Give big pharma a free pass until issues cropped up? What about all the other multibillion dollar lawsuits of hundreds of other drugs they've 'approved' and deemed safe for the public. But by all means, they'll be sure to protect us from vaping hazards I'm sure. They've done such a bang up job keeping the public 'safe' prior to vaping.

I'm not saying it's not good to be aware of play it safe, that's common sense. If the fda worked like they should in theory and kept us safe it might be different but it's nothing more than a black hole for tax dollars, imposing regulations that create a stream of forced revenue under the guise of safety provisions.
That's the money of Big Pharma at work and they don't care, their Insurance picks up the tab on law suits and passes the costs to all they Insure
 

Calista

Member For 3 Years
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Yeah, you are right on all counts. I do wish there was a law that they had to tell us what's in the juice. I mean, all products are required to list their ingredients. Vape juice shouldn't be any different, especially if the ingredients are linked to an incurable disease.
 

Calista

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This is why I DIY and only use flavoring that discloses if they use the badies or not
I would LOVE to do that as well, but I admit I'm uneasy about handling nicotine.
 

Jimi

Diamond Contributor
Member For 5 Years
I would LOVE to do that as well, but I admit I'm uneasy about handling nicotine.
Not really that bad, I've been doing it for 3+ years just do a little research, I've helped several get started also
 

martnargh

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
i have no quams about vaping products with diketones...
if you were a smoker, you were exposing yourself to diketones 10 fold over anything found in ejuice... id get all statisticall but im in bed and lack the effort to do so.
if anyone wants to shut down what i just said, im open to suggestion

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
 

freemind

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
I don't care about ejuice ingredients, short of Crimney type additives.

There is NOTHING in ejuice that is as bad, or as close to as bad, as smoking cigarettes. Nothing.

The FDA AND vaper alarmist both got it wrong.

If YOU want to be cautious, great. But WAYYY too many people have rung the worry wart bell.
 

Synphul

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I wish they'd be straight about it as well and obviously no one (usually) intentionally says gee, toxins? Sounds yummy, tell me more. I don't like the way the fda goes about it though. If they want to test, fine. However the ridiculously high fees are absurd and unnecessary. It lines their pockets and they've been freaking out because the vaping industry hasn't been under their thumb, paying the piper. They're urgent to get it reigned in and start flooding their coffers if you want my opinion on it. Any moderately relevant health data they manage to conjure up seems to just be a side effect of their main goal.

Just like smoking. Not that I think they should outlaw it, but the fda didn't shut it down in spite of the well known health risks either. Their solution was to hike up the taxes and apply extra tobacco taxes. Does charging more money somehow make the general public any healthier? Seems to me more like 'well, people are going to smoke anyway so may as well turn it into a revenue stream'.
 

Calista

Member For 3 Years
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Yes, they're in cigs far, far, far higher levels; however, it's thought that much of it is burned off before you inhale it. Not so with vaping. There are several companies that are diketone-free.
 

outwest

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Member For 4 Years
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I would LOVE to do that as well, but I admit I'm uneasy about handling nicotine.
Nothing wrong with being cautious. And, if you have kids or pets (or have a friend or relative that brings kids or pets over), even more important to be careful about the stuff. Wouldn't want a kid to spill on him/her self and not clean up promptly, and wouldn't want a dog to use a bottle of 100mg nic as a chew toy.

As for your own handling of it, FWIW, i've spilt the 100mg nic on myself many a time. As long as I rinse it off fairly quickly, no biggie. Did get a little bit nic sick once when took the attitude of doing it when I was finished mixing. But anyway, that's why I always mix at the counter by the sink. If I spill, it's on an easy to clean surface and if I spill on my hand or arm, I can rinse it off right then and there. If 100mg has you too nervous, you can always get something like 48mg or 36mg base to work with.
 

Synphul

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Good point about the pets, many things seem harmless can be toxic to pets. Like nonstick frying pans with birds in the house, don't recall if it's all or just teflon pans or maybe the older teflon (like t-fal) pans that would release toxins in the air when cooking with them that can cause birds in the house to go belly up. Not saying this is the case with vaping but there are undetected chemicals that when released can have really bad effects.
 

outwest

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Just thought I'd add - you can buy higher than 100mg nic base (you can get 200mg base or even pure nic), but I don't recommend it, especially not for someone new to DIY. The 200mg is, of course, more risky than the 100mg, and the pure nic is quite dangerous. Anyway, my point is to be sure you know and pay attention to what you're ordering. I've seen people not realize that there's a difference between pure nic (aka 1000mg base or 999mg base) and 100mg base. There's that extra pesky zero in there, for one ;)
 

Calista

Member For 3 Years
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Just thought I'd add - you can buy higher than 100mg nic base (you can get 200mg base or even pure nic), but I don't recommend it, especially not for someone new to DIY. The 200mg is, of course, more risky than the 100mg, and the pure nic is quite dangerous. Anyway, my point is to be sure you know and pay attention to what you're ordering. I've seen people not realize that there's a difference between pure nic (aka 1000mg base or 999mg base) and 100mg base. There's that extra pesky zero in there, for one ;)
Thanks for that. No doubt I'll eventually mix my own, but for now, I'm happy with a few companies and flavors. I would like to have flavors on hand for those juices that don't seem to have the flavor they're meant to. I used to smoke menthol, so I often just add some Halo Subzero to a juice I don't particularly care for so it's not wasted. Now that I'm totally off cigs and enjoying vaping, I don't feel that I HAVE to have menthol. It was really difficult for me to make the switch from cigs to vape only and I was always searching for a Marlboro Smooth substitute.
 

Rossum

Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
THIS is one of the reasons the FDA wants to have laws concerning juices. As of right now, they could be putting arsenic in the juice and they don't have to tell us.
Have you read the FDA regs? They do not require disclosure of ingredients to the consumer, only to the FDA itself.
 

freemind

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
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Have you read the FDA regs? They do not require disclosure of ingredients to the consumer, only to the FDA itself.
It's almost funny, how sheep like some people are...

People seem to think the FDA will make sure a product is safe/safer for us. Yet the FDA ok'ed the shit tobacco companies add to cigarettes. Adding more poisons and chemicals to something that didn't need it. And they think the FDA will ensure juice is safe?


Some people believe we would not have T.V. if it were not for the FCC, too.

People may not like hearing it, but some people are so fucking dumb, they deserve to be a victim of Darwinism.
 

Huckleberried

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People seem to think the FDA will make sure a product is safe/safer for us.
Agreed. I don't think the new regs have anything to do with protecting vapers or vendors. They appear to be making it as difficult as possible for both, simply to line their own pockets. Many are already bailing because the cost is too much. We'll find our ways. Those before us got us where we are today.
 

freemind

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
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Agreed. I don't think the new regs have anything to do with protecting vapers or vendors. They appear to be making it as difficult as possible for both, simply to line their own pockets. Many are already bailing because the cost is too much. We'll find our ways. Those before us got us where we are today.

You are correct on all fronts.

Government does NOT solve problems. They only complicate things way more. The private sector, is the problem solvers, period. Government does not bring innovation. Instead it brings forth "rules".

In my area, you can not install a traditional septic system. Instead, you are required to have a mound system. The mound system does not make the environment safer, or anything of the kind. Instead, it adds MASSIVE amounts of initial expense, and maintenance expenses are huge. This is how government works today.
 

Rossum

Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
If the FDA approves the crap in cigarettes, how can they not approve ejuice? Not that logic comes into it:p
Uhm... All cigarettes on the market as of 2007 were grandfathered by the Tobacco Control Act, which is what gave the FDA authority to regulate tobacco products. In other words, they have never been approved. I'm pretty sure the FDA has never approved a "new" cigarette. I believe they've approved a few insignificant changes since then as "Substantially Equivalent", but that's an approach no e-liquid vendor can take because there was no e-liquid marketed to the public early in 2007.
 

outwest

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Dekang eliquid was being sold back then but only in a few places. There was a tiny chinese junk wholesale shop in Denver that had it and the 808 pen style, but proving it is another matter (that shop is out of business)
 

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